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sugar
Guru
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Morrinsville, New Zealand
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 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | There are situations where more compelling arguments can be made about doing the most good for the most people, without doing harm, over an above treating people as a means to an end. |
So people can be treated as property, if you feel that an persuasive argument for doing so has been made? |
as long as there is no harm.
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | The Earth wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | There are situations where more compelling arguments can be made about doing the most good for the most people, without doing harm, over an above treating people as a means to an end. |
So people can be treated as property, if you feel that an persuasive argument for doing so has been made? |
as long as there is no harm. |
So you actually don't place human life into a unique category. Interesting...
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sugar
Guru
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
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Location: Morrinsville, New Zealand
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | The Earth wrote: | | So you actually don't place human life into a unique category. Interesting... |
do you mean human life or humanity? Unlike Kant, I don't not see humans as being 'special'. |
You could have just said "yes".
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BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1376
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | BonezTheGoon wrote: | | My personal ethics on it indicate that it is unethical to allow a murderer to continue to murder (the murderers certainly do not wait for their victims consent) and it is also unethical to cage a murderer indefinitely. |
If I could perform some kind of medical procedure on someone that would prevent them from murdering again, you'd be ok with this? Nobody would need to die, and it would be cheaper than having someone on death row for 10 years. |
Yes, with two caveats. First, it would have to be just as absolutely "final" as killing them, meaning 100% of the time effective, not 99.99999%. Second, it would have to be something that is not in the realm of torture. This second one gets much harder to define. So I'll ramble a bit about it. It can't leave them like a vegetable, it cannot alter their "personality", it cannot leave them disabled and unable to pursue their interests, in essence it has to be a "perfect solution" that only changes their behavior of killing/raping/etc. Since I do not believe such a "miracle cure" is possible without wild side-effects I do not discuss it or pursue it in general, but I felt your question deserved a very honest (albeit, IMO, science fiction) answer. Yes, this science-fiction-based answer can illustrate my thinking and reasoning further, but I do not believe it is a worthwhile conversation when you start to actually consider applying it.
[Edit] I also think that the party should have a choice as well, they can either opt for the surgery or accept death. As I stated earlier in the thread I do not believe that they should be forced to undergo surgery against their will. I believe it much more ethical, honorable, and natural to kill someone against their will than it is to "alter" them against their will. Again, a big part of my reasoning for that is that we all must die, it is inescapable and natural, but no one should be forced to go through something like surgery if they don't want it.
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BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1487
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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It would have to prevent them from committing violent crime in general. Otherwise, your serial killer would just go around lobotomizing people or turning them into paraplegics or whatever.
And, then you're carrying out the plot of A Clockwork Orange. 
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BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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So, I'm really curious for the people here who are against the death penalty regarding people risking their own lives for pleasure and sport. What do you think about them? Should someone be allowed to rock-climb without rope thousands of feet above the ground? Should we allow people to risk their own lives for their own interests? Should there be laws in place that mitigate the risks that individuals can take with their own lives?
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BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1376
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | It would have to prevent them from committing violent crime in general. Otherwise, your serial killer would just go around lobotomizing people or turning them into paraplegics or whatever.
And, then you're carrying out the plot of A Clockwork Orange. |
Agreed, that's sort of what I was implying with my comment:
| BonezTheGoon wrote: | | it has to be a "perfect solution" that only changes their behavior of killing/raping/etc. |
with my "etc"
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