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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:35 am    Post subject: LED Light Bulbs Reply with quote

Anyone played with LED light bulbs? I'm talking about the kind you put in your house. I've read that some of them have internal fans that make noise. Not quite sure what to make of that.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: LED Light Bulbs Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Anyone played with LED light bulbs? I'm talking about the kind you put in your house. I've read that some of them have internal fans that make noise. Not quite sure what to make of that.
I've looked at them, loosely, but they're still cost and functionally* prohibitive IMO. If they need fans, that's just more proof incandescents are difficult to beat.

Now I'm really only considering them for under cabinet lighting, stuff like that.

* LEDs seem like the wrong tool for general lighting, due to the gargantuan arrays they come up with and call a "light bulb."
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incandescents are a dead technology. The sooner everyone realizes* that the better.


*Now I tend to use American spellings.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked into outfitting our break room at work with them. The return on investment was still close to 5 years. We really don't entertain anything that won't pay for itself in a year or two. In the long run they are cheaper than other lighting options because of the long life & energy savings. It seems like most people and businesses are more concerned about the up front capital than the long-run costs, so they're still not catching on. LED lighting still requires a larger initial investment.

The model we were looking at was intended to be installed in an existing florescent fixture. A 'driver' (i.e. power supply) would be installed in the fixture where the florescent ballast normally goes and the LED lamp was built to the same form factor as the florescent lamp. The light it produced was a little sterile for my taste and had just a touch of a blue tinge to it, but I know from experimenting with lights that after the initial shock factor, I would have probably gotten used to it and maybe even grown to like it more than the more yellow lighting I'm used to.

The individual diodes were mounted on a heat-sink inside the pseudo-florescent tube. We had the demo unit on for close to an hour, and I handled the lamp right after the demonstration and don't remember it being hot or even abnormally warm. I've never seen any references to a fan being required on the fixtures I've looked at... but then again I was definitely looking at bigger fixtures intended for commercial installations during my research. Maybe smaller house lighting is different?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pitcrawler wrote:
Incandescents are a dead technology. The sooner everyone realizes* that the better.


*Now I tend to use American spellings.

Oh my God... it's changing!

Next, he'll buy a pickup truck! :P

Have you bought a pair of Western-style boots yet (i.e. "cowboy boots")?


ON the light bulbs. Until LEDs come down a bit in price, I use them selectively for:

- locations that are hard to get to in order to change the bulb (recessed ceiling lights)
- things that get subjected to bumping or jarring (e.g. handheld work light)
- low-voltage use (remote areas, working off a generator)
- working around volatile materials (shop or lab environment)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somebody said they're better than those super efficient CFLs. That's all I know.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pitcrawler wrote:
Incandescents are a dead technology. The sooner everyone realizes* that the better.
The technology may be old, but it is still vastly more useful as a product than emerging technology.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Somebody said they're better than those super efficient CFLs. That's all I know.

Here is everything you need to know (some of it us US-oriented). The bottom line is this: use a mixture of CFL and LED lighting.

The traditional incandescent bulbs seem to still be available in many places. While they have a nice "warm" yellowish light we find relaxing, they suck up a lot of electricity (25% of your electric bill), are hot, don't last long, and are fragile. Also, they will supposedly no longer be available sometime in the near future. Those of us still holding out to make sure the new ones are safe, to come down in price, or because we love our warmish light can probably start replacing them now without concerns.

CFLs (Compact Fluorescent Lighting bulbs) are about four times more efficient than incandescant bulbs; they put out four times more lumens per watt, a "lumen" being basically a candle's worth of light. They are cheap now (considering they last ten times as long as the incandescent bulbs): a 12-pack costs about $18. They're similar in size to what we're used to, but a bit more rugged, because they contain a bit of mercury (although it's apparently not enough to be dangerous unless you rolled naked on a pile of them). They don't get hot. On the down side, they have a "cold" blueish light quality more suited to getting things done than relaxing (white with a "color temperature" of about 5000K, which is actually similar to sunlight but is not what we're used to indoors). CFLs are probably the best option available now for general indoor household use, although I'd selectively use LEDs instead
(discussed below) in places where "warm" ambient light is wanted. Be careful twisting CFLs in; try not to hold them by glass part when you do it. While they're more resistant to getting knocked around, twisting them too hard by the glass part can break them.

LEDs (Light Emitting Diode "bulbs") are about five times more efficient than incandescent bulbs. Compared to CFLs, they are smaller,
very rugged, and lower voltage. They last 25 times longer than incandescent bulbs (i.e. 2.5 times as long as CFLs). They are more
expensive (about $10 each for a basic bulb). Notably, they are now available in various colors as well as shades of white (i.e. color
temperatures ranging from "warm" (more yellowish, 2700K) to "cool" (more bluish, 5,000K)). There are even some you can change the color on. For anything but work/task lighting (for which you can really use the CFLs for most purposes), you probably want "warm white" (which go for about $10). LED bulbs generally do not work with dimmer switches (some do -- $30). Some shabby no-name bulbs are available that don't last long. Look for brands you know and/or certifications such as "FCC", "Energy Star", and "UL". Until LEDs come down in price by about half, I would suggest using them selectively for things such as:

- applications where warmer ambient light is desirable (e.g., dining room, bedrooms)
- locations that are hard to get to in order to change the bulb (e.g., recessed ceiling lights)
- things that get subjected to bumping or jarring (e.g. handheld work light, lamp that gets knocked over all the time)
- children's rooms and play areas
- low-voltage use (remote areas, working off a generator)
- working around volatile materials (shop or lab environment)
- applications where actual colored light is needed (e.g. red ones for darkrooms)

Halogen bulbs are only slightly more energy-efficient than our old incandescent bulbs, but they give off a brilliant white light
with a high (blue-shifted) color temperature (the super-bright headlights you see on some cars are halogen bulbs), and the tiny bulbs
get very hot (like blister your finger hot). If you touch the glass even when it's cold, the oils from your skin can cause them to later
pop when they get hot. In general, probably not a good choice for most people. Might be a good choice for areas where exceptionally bright light is needed that is close to the color temperature of sunlight (e.g., growing plants indoors in Alaska during the Winter?).

Some of the new types of bulbs come in traditional screw-in socket type (i.e. "standard base" or "Edison" base) to use in existing sockets as well as a plug-in type (i.e. "pin base"), which I imagine has begun to replace screw-in sockets in new lamps and fixtures -- so don't grab the wrong ones. Make sure you look at the end of what you're buying to make sure it will fit where you will be using it.

The other thing that's generally confusing about suddenly having these alternatives is that we've become used to estimating the "brightness" of bulbs by the number of watts they consume. That won't work anymore. If you're buying a CFL bulb, divide the wattage of the bulb your replacing by four (e.g. replace an 80-watt bulb with a CFL around 20-watts). If you buying an LED bulb, divide the wattage of the bulb your replacing by five (e.g. replace a 60-watt bulb with an LED of about 12 watts). Make the math fun, because watts are what you pay the electric company for. Think about how much you're saving by replacing a 60-watt bulb with a 12-watt bulb. Some of the packaging features a suggestion of how many watts a comparable incandescent bulb would have, but this year, they are required to change the packaging to emphasize "Lumens" and get us all used to thinking in those terms, so I guess we'll soon know intuitively how much light a "60-lumen bulb" puts out.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:D Thanks!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
:D Thanks!

My parents and uncle had been bitching about the confusion of having to deal with new kinds of light bulbs, so I sent that as an email to all the old people I know, most of whom have been reluctant to switch.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went ahead and ordered two EarthLED ThetaLux bulbs.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
...good stuff...

Much ++ on BK's very thorough post.

A few details I'd like to add:

Light quality from CFLs and especially LEDs has improved noticeably in the last 6-9 months. Efficiency has been increasing too. It's a great time to be trying the new lights. But I wouldn't go buying a household-full of them quite yet: the next dozen months promises yet more amazing goodness.

BK's "divide incandescent wattage by 4 (or 5, for LEDs)" rule-of-thumb is a good start. But the efficiency (lumens per watt) can vary a lot between different styles of lights, color temperatures, manufacturers, and even when they were made. This is especially true of LEDs. I've seen LED lights that produce the same 450-lumens worth of light, consume anywhere between 7.5 to 12 watts. You'll get better results if you can re-base your thinking in terms of lumens instead of watts. Lumens relate to perceptual brightness and are constant for a given level of light irrespective of technology. Just glance at the incandescents in the store (while they still carry them) and make a note of the lumens output of the lights you use. 100 watt tends to be 1600-1700 lumens, and so on. Then look for similar lumens in your replacement bulbs. It's much easier to select an appropriate bulb that way.

Current efficiency figures for a typical CFL are around 40 lumens per watt, maxing out at 60 lumens per watt for particularly efficient ones. If you need LOTS of light (garage, aircraft hangar), you can get overhead "T5" fluorescent fixtures that'll put out over 100 lumens per watt. Look for fixtures using "HO" (high output) tubes. It's usually 52 watts per tube, a fixture of 4 tubes will consume a bit over 200 watts but deliver nearly 20000 lumens (!). Amazingly bright. You can't look directly into it.

If buying LEDs, don't settle for anything less than 60 lumens per watt. There's some older LED bulbs that are less efficient than the average CFL. Not worth the price premium. The best LEDs currently max out at around 90-100 lumens per watt. Whether they're worth the price depends on what you're paying for electricity. (But see below about color).

Regarding color: All CFLs I've tested exhibit "line spectra". That is, if you look at the light with a spectrometer (or just a slit and a prism) you don't get a continuous rainbow spectrum like you do for sunlight or incandescents. You get lines at various colors. There'll be some red, some yellow, some green, some deep blue, maybe something in the orange, that together all add up to a white-looking light. For almost all applications this works out fine. But there's some colors - most notably in the cyan - that look different under CFL compared to sunlight or incandescent. Some of the poorer-quality CFLs don't have enough yellow, either, which makes for poor color rendering.

Recent LED lights are MUCH better in terms of color compared to CFL, and compared to older LED. Some that I've tested have a nearly-full continuous spectrum. All that's missing is they are weak in the cyans (there's something about that color, seems to be difficult to get right for some reason). But it's a minor niggle.

Seriously, try a "warm white" LED bulb. Try to get the 3000K version. You will not be disappointed (except for the price). (The 2700K versions feel "too yellow" for my taste at least, and they seem to lose some efficiency compared to the 3000K ones.) Lowe's (and maybe Home Depot?) sells some branded "Utilitech Pro". They come in 7.5 watt 450 lumen for around $12, and (I think) 12 watt 800 lumen for a lot more ($29?). Feit brand also makes similar. I have a few of the 7.5 watt ones. The 450 lumen is a tad dim (they are labeled as "40 watt equivalent"), so I use two where I would have had one bulb, but the light quality is superb: clean and smooth yet lively without being harsh. Highly recommended.

(Note that this (and many others) are "180°" lights: they emit light only in the upper hemisphere away from the base. This can be bonus if used in a fixture that mainly projects light in one direction (desk lamp, "torch" type lights). Or it could be a detriment in a lamp-shade style of lamp.)

Another note: many of the new lights do not support dimming. And those that do, dim differently than incandescents. The main effect is, some people like that dimming a light makes it yellower and then redder. LEDs and CFLs don't change color as they are dimmed. So if you like this reddening effect, stick to incandescents for now.

Finally, try some of the "neutral" or even "daylight" whites in LED. They are *much* better than the corresponding CFL versions (at least in my eye's opinion). My preference is for a 3000K .. 3500K color temperature for general room lighting, and 5000K for work/task lighting. Stay away from the 6500K ones tho. Color rendering seems off still on those.

Other things to watch out for: yellow "bug light" CFLs, aren't. All the ones I've seen actually have red and green phosphors only. Although they look yellow to our eyes, they attract bugs anyway. (That one took a while to figure out.) Some LED bug lights are the same way: actually composed of red and green light. For some reason, yellows and especially cyans seem difficult to get in non-incandescent sources, at least currently.

Edit: I just noticed wswartzendruber had made his purchase. (Ok, so between my writing slowly and the constant interruptions, it's yesterday's news by time I get it out :/ ) Anyway, post back after you tried them, I'm curious how you like them. And I looked around and found something I'll want to try next: http://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Lifetime-Guarantee-G7-Power/dp/B0064AE2K4/
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm wanting to put these two I just bought in my kitchen fixture, but I don't know how well they'll work given the 180° viewing angle the bulbs have.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use 4' High Output T5 Fluorescent lights for a certain project. Each tube is around 52 watts iirc. A combination of 3000K and 6500K produces a very nice light for general purposes. They produce very little heat compared to an incandescent.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I replaced most bulbs in my house with LED lighting over the past 14 months.

One of the sales reps for one of the bulb companies loaned me a 60 watt LED bulb equivalent. I put them in my living room lamp that has two sockets, I put an incandescent in one and the LED in the other, and the colour temperature was identical (I couldn't see a difference in the lighting colour @2700k.) After that is when I started to slowly change all the incandescent and CFLs in my house. I like bulbs with no mercury in them.

You really get what you pay for. Those bulbs were over $30, but the local power utility subsidized half of it. The bulbs are all dimmable (I actually got mine to dim down to ~10%! But you need a trailing edge dimmer IIRC. Had to replace two dimmers in the house.)

I saw some bulbs in Costco and went "wow, those are cheap" (~$5/bulb) and bought them. The colour in them are godawful, but they're the only ones I've found so far that fit in my bedroom lamp...

Edit: My power bill went noticeably down when I changed all the bulbs. Like almost $30 a month in some months.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I woud find this annoying since I live in an apartment. I'd have to swap the bulbs, store the olds, and when I move, put the olds back and move the fancy ones. I'm not sure it's worth it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say this thread really lighten the way I thought about light bulbs. I learned a lot from this thread. Thanks BK and Akkara, great info :D
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

++ to that.
I've been thinking about getting LED lighting for some time. Seems like the next bulb that has to be replaced is going to be a replaced by an LED. Sounds good what you people say about your experiences with them.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
for a certain project

:lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone here have a 25 watt bulb in their fridge?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two 40s, why?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Two 40s, why?

I was thinking of throwing a smaller LED bulb in the fridge, but I can only find 25 watt equivalents that small.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm wanting to put these two I just bought in my kitchen fixture, but I don't know how well they'll work given the 180° viewing angle the bulbs have.

That depends. Is it a closed fixture like a sealed globe that goes over that? Or one that is open to the air like a suspended saucer? Most LED lights aren't good for use in sealed fixures. (I should have noted this in my previous post.)

LED lights give off much less heat than incandescents. But they also don't tolerate heat well at all. Remember the problems with motherboard capacitors? LED (and CFL) lights both use capacitors as part of the driver circuit. The best capacitors are rated for 105°C. Cheaper ones are only good to 85°C. And besides that, LEDs (the devices) give off less light and have a much shorter lifetime when operated above 85..90°C.

I tried one in a sealed globe outside light where I thought the cold of the winter would be no problem keeping things cool. Even so it was on the verge of overheating (I had stuck a thermometer in there to see).

So use them in open fixtures and enjoy. But for closed fixtures, probably best to avoid for now, unless you can find one specifically rated for it. Or, look for the most efficient one you can find: higher efficiency == less heat generated.

To give you an idea of the actual quantum efficiencies underlying all this: An ideal black body radiator that's been spectrally filtered so it only produces light in the visible range, gives off 250 lumens of light per watt of radiant flux [reference]. The current best of the best, at 100 lumens per watt, represents around 40% of maximum theoretical efficiency (there's some assumptions about spectral distribution in there that might not be completely accurate; see the reference and work the integral to get the true figures). The bulb wswartzendruber had linked to earlier, at 9 watts producing 580 lumens, represents about 26% of maximum theoretical efficiency. It's producing around 2.3 watts of luminous flux, and 6.7 watts of heat. Two of them would make it around 13 watts of heat, which in an enclosed space can easily reach the cooks electronics range.

Regarding refrigerator bulbs: unless there's issues with the quantity of light or its color, probably not worthwhile. Sure incandescents waste a lot of power. But it's not like the door's open that long. And if it is, you've got bigger energy-wasting problems to contend with :)
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fixture is fully enclosed.

I went fishing around the web for warnings about EarthLED bulbs. Of the common ones, only the ZetaLux 2 series seems to have warnings about not placing in an enclosed fixture. The EvoLux 2 and ThetaLux (mine) series don't carry this warning.

Shouldn't there be a warning on the packaging or perhaps on the lamp itself?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
The fixture is fully enclosed.

I went fishing around the web for warnings about EarthLED bulbs. Of the common ones, only the ZetaLux 2 series seems to have warnings about not placing in an enclosed fixture. The EvoLux 2 and ThetaLux (mine) series don't carry this warning.

Shouldn't there be a warning on the packaging or perhaps on the lamp itself?

There should be, if it's not meant to operate in a fully enclosed fixture. Maybe this one's OK for it. It's possible they used high-temperature components. But it's also rare enough that I'd expect to see a "works in enclosed spaces!" big gold marketing star. Maybe they hadn't tested it. It's hard to tell. Do they have a 800-number you can try calling?

Or, just try it, and if it doesn't work, return it, since there's no warnings against it.

If you try it, stick a thermometer in there and report back. It's the only way to slowly get accurate information out there.
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