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greyspoke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I have opened a new thread about the init script approach here for further discussion.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
Initramfs-less, is this all-in-one filesystem charming tendency ? fashion ? whim ? policy ? (pardon-me, english is not my native language)...
likely to concern /tmp ; /var/tmp ; /var/log too in a more or less near future ?


Personally, it's rather about finding an elegant solution to an annoying problem: an auxiliary component (udev) dictating policies on how the system should boot up.
So, with earlymount, the aim is definitely to still provide an initramfs-less system wherever one really doesn't need it, while keeping the solution as simple and flexible as possible -- thus envisioning the need for any other partition, f.i., /var, in order to allow OpenRC logging from the very beginning.
This is why, IMHO, using earlymount is more flexible and, possibly, cleaner than retrofitting udev to behave differently than its original design: of course, anyone is free to do so, but I'm afraid that's the first sign of imminent project forking...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Initramfs is for distros that use bundled, premade kernels. It's a necessary evil when you don't know what drivers are required to boot the system. It's a necessary evil when you don't know what firmware you need at boot and what firmware you can defer until / is mounted. It's useless bloat on gentoo. Similarly, the argument of "it's not a major change because everyone uses an initramfs anyway" does not apply. I don't want to significantly slow down my boot speed just for the sake of .... what, exactly? That's what I don't understand. My system boots just fine, and it's being broken for no discernible purpose. The "solution" involves either repartitioning my hard disk to put a bunch of bloat that doesn't belong on / on / which will significantly slow down my boot speed or running an initramfs which will put a bunch of bloat that doesn't belong in /boot in /boot and significantly slow down my boot speed.

/usr on / might make the most sense for Fedora, but that's because Fedora is horribly broken. I really don't want their shit infecting my system. I don't want non-functional broken shit like PulseAudio, NetworkManager, PolicyKit, and ConsoleKit, and I'm sick of this brain damage being forced on me.
sphakka wrote:
of course, anyone is free to do so, but I'm afraid that's the first sign of imminent project forking...
I'd be happy with that plan.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pigeon768 wrote:
...
sphakka wrote:
of course, anyone is free to do so, but I'm afraid that's the first sign of imminent project forking...
I'd be happy with that plan.


All in all, pigeon768, you're right. This udev story is another (bad) example of how corporate control can doom flexibility and freedom. Hopefully gentoo's community will propose something better -- elsewhere, there has been a rather heated discussion about using mdev: although that doesn't look powerful enough for extreme automagical hot-plugging (sorry, I'm not a specialist, so take it with a grain of salt), it should be enough for many common tasks.
At least, I'd really like to see gentoo docs proposing a viable (supported?) *alternative* to udev.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eeeewwww, udev and systemd are merging

http://lwn.net/Articles/490413/

*puke emoticon*
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kollin wrote:
Eeeewwww, udev and systemd are merging

http://lwn.net/Articles/490413/

*puke emoticon*


[sarcasm] Huh, how weird? Better off putting bad animals in the same cage, I guess... [/sarcasm]
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sphakka wrote:
Kollin wrote:
Eeeewwww, udev and systemd are merging

http://lwn.net/Articles/490413/

*puke emoticon*


[sarcasm] Huh, how weird? Better off putting bad animals in the same cage, I guess... [/sarcasm]


I really hated hal's xml configuration and was really relived when it got ditched, now udev and systemd configuration is even worse .
What happen with K.I.S.S. principle? :(
Soon the only persons that actually have the knowledge to configure a linux system will be a handful of devs :?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kollin wrote:

Soon the only persons that actually have the knowledge to configure a linux system will be a handful of devs :?

/me smells money 8)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. Did you read any further there? Despite udev and systemd being 'merged', we will still be able to build only the udev part out of the merged tar.bz2.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Hmm. Did you read any further there? Despite udev and systemd being 'merged', we will still be able to build only the udev part out of the merged tar.bz2.

Yeah, as I have mentioned in another thread, the next logical step is merging cups into the libreoffice source tree (but - of course - still leaving the option to build it alone).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting take on it all: http://blog.ngas.ch/archives/2011/12/13/the_destructive_desktop__mdash_linux_in_trouble/index.html
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Interesting take on it all: http://blog.ngas.ch/archives/2011/12/13/the_destructive_desktop__mdash_linux_in_trouble/index.html
Oh thanks, now I see something called 'sssd' is supposed to replace PAM? Shame, I still haven't finished playing PAM...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
Oh thanks, now I see something called 'sssd' is supposed to replace PAM? Shame, I still haven't finished playing PAM...

Yeah that got me as well; I really do not want to replace basic stuff that has been developed over years, and works well. Ideally I'd be able to get shot of all the *Kit stuff, and their successors.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Interesting take on it all: http://blog.ngas.ch/archives/2011/12/13/the_destructive_desktop__mdash_linux_in_trouble/index.html

Interesting thesis, that DBus is the root cause of the Linux desktop feature creep and resulting standards lock-in.

UNIX got Windozed.
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Kollin
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Interesting take on it all: http://blog.ngas.ch/archives/2011/12/13/the_destructive_desktop__mdash_linux_in_trouble/index.html


Yea. yea... digging in the past again... What's done is done!
What we are going to do from now on to change all of that (except hugging udev and systemd, of course ) :D
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how much discontent there is with dbus/*kit, etc outside of fringe distributions like Gentoo and probably Arch, and unfortunately we are a fringe distribution. It would be more enlightening to see how much discontent there is in LXDE or one of the xfce-based distributions.

Perhaps the thing to realize is that the juggernaut has left the station, and may not be stoppable. In that case, a more productive use of resources might be to come up with good command-line based code to interface to dbus/*kit and bring back the text-mode capabilities we feel we need. There was a referenced link that talked about a stale command-line interface (cnetworkmanager) to networkmanager. Perhaps someone needs to freshen that code.

Over the course of my career I've spent a LOT of time tilting at windmills, and I still do so regularly. But sometimes it just doesn't work, and it lands you way out on a peninsula that eventually becomes an island, in the middle of nowhere.

I strongly suspect that a good set of command-line tools that interfaces to all of this "newfangled desktop crap", and lets you manage systems, especially servers, in text mode again, would be widely welcomed. A few good starting points would be to freshen cnetworkmanager, and some sort of dbus spy with dynamic filtering.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
A few good starting points would be to freshen cnetworkmanager...


Last time i tried cnetworkmanager it was just undocumented joke of a tool, and that was the point where i decided not to use NetworkManager at all.
Standard linux network configuration (including wpa_supplicant and wireless tools) is extremely well documented, logical and understandable (even for nubies) and most importantly IT WORKS. I never understood why do we need that NetworkManager atrocity :?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wicd works quite nicely as a GUI networking manager, without using dbus or policykit.

I do need a GUI networking manager for my laptop since I travel frequently, and don't want to be editing config files and typing AP ESSIDs every time I'm in a new location.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
I do need a GUI networking manager for my laptop since I travel frequently, and don't want to be editing config files and typing AP ESSIDs every time I'm in a new location.

http://blog.zx2c4.com/248
(not that I have any experience with that - I just remembered wpa_supplicant also offered a gui)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
wicd works quite nicely as a GUI networking manager, without using dbus or policykit.

I do need a GUI networking manager for my laptop since I travel frequently, and don't want to be editing config files and typing AP ESSIDs every time I'm in a new location.

Wicd has also a great curses interface, which I find even better than the GTK one.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the suggestions.

I run a Qt-free system, so wpa_gui is a non-starter, though it does look like it would do the job for wireless. Does it also show wired connection status like wicd-gtk?

My desktop is XFCE, so wicd-gtk fits nicely. wicd-cli is passable, but would require me to fire up a terminal just to see my status, whereas wicd-gtk has an informative tray icon and tooltip.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
Interesting thesis, that DBus is the root cause of the Linux desktop feature creep and resulting standards lock-in.

I'm not sure it's dbus per-se. I personally quite like the protocol, though not XML configuration (funny that systemd uses a plain-text format for its service files;) and there is a need for applications to be able to communicate with each other and the system. I think it's more that layering of critical system things on top of an IPC-mechanism like that is a bad idea.

Especially when you look at integrating it all via one process: I think that's a bad idea for logging, for example, and feels like something added "because we can" not because it's actually needed or an improvement. It's needless redesign which ignores the lessons of the past, masquerading as innovation, imo, and the standard syslogd facilities we have appear much more attractive.
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UNIX got Windozed.

Gnome-OS certainly seems to be going that way; and the assertion that "Linux is not an OS" and "Gnome-OS will be" and the apparent attitude that any changes they need are necessarily a good idea, even though their seem to be basic design flaws in the approach, is worrying for future Linux kernel development, to me at least.

Still, not like I can do anything about it, apart from configure my kernels how I want, and run openrc and udev without an initramfs for as long as it works.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps it's fair to say that D-Bus has enabled those who think that it's a good idea for the tail to wag the dog. Once it was incorporated into GNOME and KDE (as well as other DEs) and became a freedesktop.org standard, there was no stopping its push lower in the software stack.

At some point the platform will be so broken that people will leave it.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some imhos + some facts:

  • Linux, the kernel, is developed by 80%+ of people who are paid workers - somewhere at the top of this list is Redhat
  • Redhat/Fedora defaults to GNOME
  • while I don't have statistics as hand, I'd guess development on GNOME has about the same amount of commercially backed writers as the kernel
  • Redhat is now a billion dollar company
  • most changes/additions to the kernel in the last years were for the "enterprises"
  • Redhat plays against Novell - and to some extent Canonical, though I personally know no one paying for Ubuntu stuff - where Novell is in a rather good position through their deal with Microsoft, ie they are sure to make their money, no matter what
  • to obtain and keep the upper hand, Redhat has to be on the forefront and do the inventions, that's what the playground Fedora is for
  • Redhat makes money by selling licenses of stuff, other distributions couldn't test that much/in time
  • Redhat makes money by selling support, which is easier if the system is harder to use, leaving long time freerunner Linux admins out of the game
  • Redhat employs Poettering
  • Poettering makes up problems/says working stuff isn't really working
  • tries to re-implement OS X
  • Poettering breakes what used to run, only to superseed it with his own/Redhat inventions
  • he does it in a way, this stuff get's forced on other distributions/applications
  • thus they leave no good way to stay away from Redhat, because they've got the knowledge
  • thus managers decide to use Redhat
  • thus they lock themselves in a somewhat prop. system, made up of open source - that's actually a nice oxymoron, which itself includes 'moron'
  • Poettering's number one sentence is "it's open source, send patches", which he usually says to normal people not able to write patches, thus ending the conversion for him
  • freeDesktop.org's work doesn't make the desktop free, it makes corporate backed systems the standard
  • things like XFCE can only compete, if they try to make the same experience which GNOME/KDE provide, that only works using deps of the big DEs and getting locked in or do the same work all over and create another big player which is incompatible to applications of the two big DEs
  • use of "small" windowmanagers (dwm, awesome, fvwm, sawfish, xmonad, ...) is on an all-time high
  • their communities constantly re-invent and re-implement the wheel
  • they fallback more and more to terminal or well written gui applications, since no matter if you choose GTK or QT today, you're locked in if you use their "convinient" libraries
  • the big heads don't seem to care (Torvalds) or are busy talking (Stallman)
  • not even talking about Android and how commercial interests try to make it hard/impossible to root a "free system" - it's not that hard to update a phone to the recent Android version in a sane amount of time, but that hinders sales of new devices.


IMHO, the biggest threads aren't MS or Apple, it's the companies standing on the shoulders of our long time linux user's work and sh*ttng down our throat.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:

IMHO, the biggest threats aren't MS or Apple, it's the companies standing on the shoulders of our long time linux user's work and sh*ttng down our throat.

You haven't exactly highlighted the fact that RedHat writes your device drivers nor that you haven't coded much for instance alternative to udev/systemd/whatever one thing you hate so much. Open Source happens to follow the path of people with most code/time to spent productively (no, not on forums).
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