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fca
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/ and /usr on separate partition without initramfs user here.

I always did this, makes upgrading/switching somewhat easier, and of course, LVM a lot less hassle. I dreaded this happening ever since I heard Fedora was switching.

I'll see if the extra work (maintain an initramfs) is not too much, otherwise I'll switch to something else. I don't have the time and skills to maintain a piece of software, I use this distribution because it saves me time...
Unfortunately getting rid of udev is not an option, too much depends on it, and staying at udev-180 will not be a very future-proof solution I fear.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't much work to use or update an initrd/initramfs, just updated mine. Still, this behaviour bugs me. I don't see how having /usr seperate is uncommon, in real life, I know no one having it under /.

+1 one the upgrade/initrd guide, else I'm sure at least a dozen threads pop up with this problem.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
radio_flyer wrote:
I don't see any choice but to migrate to the initramfs

echo ">=sys-fs/udev-172" >> /etc/portage/package.mask


This is my vote, at least for the time being.

I look after about 15 Gentoo boxes, all slightly different, but most of them have /usr mounted separately, most have LVM, and some have software RAID. I use gentoo-sources. I have used an initramfs once before, to build a read-only system with tmpfs overlay, but it all seems very custom, and not what I regard as ready for production. This is something that needs planning out for my systems and certainly isn't something I am prepared to do in a couple of days.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone here tried running without udevd yet? I've long ago ripped out all the other "GnomeOS" bloat like udisks, PAM and consolekit from all my systems without any loss of functionality, but this one seems hard to get rid of since it actually serves a purpose (making hotplug work).

Are there any existing projects to replace udev?


Aside: I'll be perfectly honest, I think we (users of all other Linux distros) really need to make an effort to get away from Redhat-owned projects — they seem more preoccupied at this point with breaking their software so Oracle can't use it, than keeping it usable for anyone else.
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Has anyone here tried running without udevd yet? I've long ago ripped out all the other "GnomeOS" bloat like udisks, PAM and consolekit from all my systems without any loss of functionality, but this one seems hard to get rid of since it actually serves a purpose (making hotplug work).

Are there any existing projects to replace udev?


virtual/dev-manager:

Code:

|| (
sys-fs/udev
sys-apps/busybox[mdev]
sys-fs/devfsd
sys-fs/static-dev
sys-freebsd/freebsd-sbin
)
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ExecutorElassus
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, given that the gentoo quick installation guide for RAID/LVM users specifically advises not only putting /usr, but a couple of its subdirectories, onto separate partitions, I suspect that configuration is not at all uncommon.

So, how about people who don't use genkernel? I've always used 'make menuconfig' for the initial config, and then 'make oldconfig' for subsequent ones. Are there specific kernel config options that need to be enabled?

So, +1 for some instruction in the guide for how to do this. I think it's a bit much for a change in what amounts to a hotplug layer forcing different kernel configuration, so maybe somebody's working to replace udev soon?

Cheers,

EE
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ExecutorElassus wrote:
Well, given that the gentoo quick installation guide for RAID/LVM users specifically advises not only putting /usr, but a couple of its subdirectories, onto separate partitions, I suspect that configuration is not at all uncommon.

So, how about people who don't use genkernel? I've always used 'make menuconfig' for the initial config, and then 'make oldconfig' for subsequent ones. Are there specific kernel config options that need to be enabled?

So, +1 for some instruction in the guide for how to do this. I think it's a bit much for a change in what amounts to a hotplug layer forcing different kernel configuration, so maybe somebody's working to replace udev soon?

Cheers,

EE


I don't use genkernel and I have masked udev for the time being.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/usr used to be for holding the user directories, hence the name.

These days, user directories are in /home on nearly every platform, and /usr is for non-critical system tools and user applications.

Given this change, is it still critical to have /usr separate?

I would argue yes. It doesn't matter what you call the directories, but critical system tools should be segregated from non-critical system tools. If something goes wrong, it's less likely to affect the basic system so you can boot up and rectify the problem. Being able to make /usr separately mountable is an important check for this requirement, not to mention use cases like separate partitions, RAID, network mounts, etc.

AFAIK FreeBSD does this, and Gentoo originally intended to do so with the separate "system" and "world" sets. As upstream has gone wonky and USE flags crept into the system set (remember the "krb5" debacle with SSL?) Gentoo has been dragged along with the rest of the Linux world.

I wonder if at some point there will be a schism between the sysadmin Linux types and the desktop Linux types. Anyway, as ssuominen says, it would be academic without coders to back it up -- right now the desktop types are setting the agenda.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
/usr used to be for holding the user directories, hence the name.

yes - a good reading on this topic is here (also the next posts):
http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html

Hypnos wrote:

critical system tools should be segregated from non-critical system tools.

Is ifconfig critical or not? How would you decide what is critical and what is not? And with more and more packages being 'critical', there is a need to put more and more stuff into /.

Hypnos wrote:

If something goes wrong, it's less likely to affect the basic system so you can boot up and rectify the problem.

TBH, I can recall only few cases when I could access / but could not mount /usr. And I could boot from livecd in all these cases.

Do not understand me wrong - I am very disappointed about all the work that I will need to do because of this move. I look after over ten Gentoo boxes - including a large server and my personal laptop. I need to tweak over half of them to be able to maintain separate /usr, and I have never used initramfs.

But I think that the idea is generally good, as I do not see any advanage in holding binaries in so many places (/bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin /usr/local/bin /usr/local/sbin to mention the most obvious ones). My main point is, however, that we are lacking a reliable documentation about how the migration/adaptation should be performed.
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ExecutorElassus
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gorkypl: I would propose that "critical" be taken to mean "the bare minimum of what you need to boot, so you can rescue the rest of it." I can use anything stored on / if mdadm fails (or if all but one of my HDDs fails) because / is mirrored, and I can thus use any of them singly. For me, however, /usr is split across a RAID6 (not RAID5, sorry) array, because I got tired of it slowly bloating (it used to be 8GB; now it's almost 12). On a RAID array, I can just add another drive to the array, and I have more space.

The more general issue, though, is that most of us (I suspect) partitioned up our system without expecting that the partition scheme would suddenly become unusable because of a system tool.

But alas! ssuominen is correct: without code to back it up, none of this really matters. So, I guess I'll be blocking udev until it gets resolved.

sigh.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Similar to another poster above, I also have /usr mounted on a small, fast SSD, as it is a read-mainly filesystem (only really written to when updating, and /usr/portage is a separate partition on a rotating hard disk), and this usage fits very well with the advantages of SSD devices.

As another user has pointed out, a separate /usr is also mentioned in the Gentoo installation documentation (as well as the RAID/LVM2 quick installation guide, the main Gentoo handbook also shows it in the filesystem usage example).

ssuominen wrote:
Reality check. If people don't write code to the contrary, their opinion is also meaningless. They will just have to adapt, even if they don't like it.


They can also stop using Gentoo because of attitudes like this and start using other distributions instead. Perhaps this counts as "adapting".

Nonetheless, we won't be missed, because our opinions are meaningless.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mickwd wrote:
They can also stop using Gentoo because of attitudes like this and start using other distributions instead. Perhaps this counts as "adapting".

This about upstream, not Gentoo. Gentoo certainly does not have the manpower to reinvent the Linux device handling stack, unlike Fedora.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
This about upstream, not Gentoo. Gentoo certainly does not have the manpower to reinvent the Linux device handling stack, unlike Fedora.


Yes, I realise that Gentoo (and all other distributions) have been left to deal with the consequences of a somewhat-sudden upstream decision, and one which is out of their hands to do much about.

Personally, I think the proper approach upstream would have been to mark a seperate /usr filesystem as "deprecated", and give notice that it will no longer be supported in X months time. However, Mr Poettering seems to be deeply involved here, and he seems to view Linux as more of a developer playground than an operating system used to actually do stuff on an ongoing basis.

I actually think it's been handled very well by Gentoo. Putting an announcement in "eselect news", and doing so before the affected version of udev is released even to unstable (at least on amd64) gives as much notice as possible that things are about to change.

My comment wasn't about this - Gentoo is making the best of a bad job here. My comment was aimed at the statement "If people don't write code to the contrary, their opinion is also meaningless" coming from a developer. This is an attitude I am uncomfortable with.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mickwd wrote:
My comment wasn't about this - Gentoo is making the best of a bad job here. My comment was aimed at the statement "If people don't write code to the contrary, their opinion is also meaningless" coming from a developer. This is an attitude I am uncomfortable with.

This has always been the case with open source projects -- developers generally do it for their own amusement, and don't have time for people who ask for things but don't contribute.

The GNOME/Ubuntu world is a bit of an aberration.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mickwd wrote:
My comment wasn't about this - Gentoo is making the best of a bad job here. My comment was aimed at the statement "If people don't write code to the contrary, their opinion is also meaningless" coming from a developer. This is an attitude I am uncomfortable with.


Sorry if that sounded too harsh but I'm growing really fast tired of people complaining about the change when they have nothing to contribute into making things better (one way, or another)
Obviously it wasn't targetting anyone in particular and nobody should get offended by it
However, it's still true
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dev,

I've understood that the same issue impacts /var on separate partitions but the enews didn't mentioned it.
imho this should mentioned.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaggyStyle wrote:
dev,

I've understood that the same issue impacts /var on separate partitions but the enews didn't mentioned it.
imho this should mentioned.


I can remember 'alsactl store' saving mixer settings in /var but haven't heard anything else... If there is something more serious than that, I'd file a bug for correcting the news item
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
DaggyStyle wrote:
dev,

I've understood that the same issue impacts /var on separate partitions but the enews didn't mentioned it.
imho this should mentioned.


I can remember 'alsactl store' saving mixer settings in /var but haven't heard anything else... If there is something more serious than that, I'd file a bug for correcting the news item


I don't know, in this thread: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-901206-highlight-.html someone said that...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
mickwd wrote:
My comment wasn't about this - Gentoo is making the best of a bad job here. My comment was aimed at the statement "If people don't write code to the contrary, their opinion is also meaningless" coming from a developer. This is an attitude I am uncomfortable with.

This has always been the case with open source projects -- developers generally do it for their own amusement, and don't have time for people who ask for things but don't contribute.

The GNOME/Ubuntu world is a bit of an aberration.


I do not recall that as an universal attitude throughout the history of the open source. Actually that was what distinguished the "hobby" projects from attempt to contribute something serious to the people computer environment. If anything the motive was to do things right, and for the everybodys benefit.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
I do not recall that as an universal attitude throughout the history of the open source. Actually that was what distinguished the "hobby" projects from attempt to contribute something serious to the people computer environment. If anything the motive was to do things right, and for the everybodys benefit.

We may have different experiences.

Back when the corporate influence on Linux was small (e.g., Red Hat 4.x days) whenever I made a feature request on a hobby project, the response was "Do you have a patch?" On more serious projects, the response was "Why?"
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
/usr used to be for holding the user directories, hence the name.


That was very early indeed, because right after that /usr became "unix system resources". It stayed that way for decades.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joaopft wrote:
That was very early indeed, because right after that /usr became "unix system resources". It stayed that way for decades.

Interesting, who started that? In my *nix experience (since mid-90s) it was always "user system resources" or variants there of. (link 1, link 2)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
Sorry if that sounded too harsh but I'm growing really fast tired of people complaining about the change when they have nothing to contribute into making things better (one way, or another)

Pointing out erroneous thinking in an approach which will effect them is contributing. You choose to take that as whining. That's just going to annoy people even more. Frankly, it's hostile developers like you who give Gentoo a bad rap. 'Put up or shut up' isn't a legitimate response to a user objection, ever.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Pointing out erroneous thinking in an approach which will effect them is contributing. You choose to take that as whining. That's just going to annoy people even more. Frankly, it's hostile developers like you who give Gentoo a bad rap. 'Put up or shut up' isn't a legitimate response to a user objection, ever.

Counterargument: non-developers are rarely sufficiently intimate with the workings of a real-world software system to have good ideas, and without a working proof-of-concept ideas aren't worth much.

I would say the obvious exception is if the project is "user facing," like a GUI or theme, in which case the non-developer's experience may be germane.

Classic expert v. wisdom-of-crowds argument. I think in free software we can rely on the question to resolve itself organically.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
Counterargument: non-developers are rarely sufficiently intimate with the workings of a real-world software system to have good ideas, and without a working proof-of-concept ideas aren't worth much.

I would say the obvious exception is if the project is "user facing," like a GUI or theme, in which case the non-developer's experience may be germane.

Classic expert v. wisdom-of-crowds argument. I think in free software we can rely on the question to resolve itself organically.

That's a different matter from outright rudeness in response to a user objection being raised (although this kind of general appeal to authority argument is objectionable in itself). Address the objection, don't just 'lol code or stfu n00b'.
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