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erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
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Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.
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 Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | Growing children need more (expensive) protein than adults, although in practice the "man of the house" often grabs the lion's share.? |
C'mon find something better ......
Fillet steak, the most expensive meat cost 27£ x 1kg in the UK, 150gr a day x 365 makes 54kg 750gr total 1478.25£ a year.
Average retail price is 30£/kg feeding the child 150gr of fillet steak every day would cost <1650£ even buying at the local butchery ....
Consider that:
1. 150gr is probably too much for a child <14yo and almost twice the 80gr/day average intake of meat recommended by the WHO.
2. working families cannot afford to eat fillet steak every day .....
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Last edited by erm67 on Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John-Boy
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Location: Desperately seeking Moksha in all the wrong places
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | Taxes. You can't have a fair society if large sections are abandoned while others control all the wealth and resources for their exclusive benefit - and then tell the poor that their poverty is all their own fault. Economic growth must be pursued on a broad front which sweeps everyone along with it. |
I'll give you a bonus point for not raising the spectre of borrowing, which is traditional labour fodder and having the balls to mention the T word.
Unfortunately, this is a bedfellow to borrowing in terms of general economic madness. Where do you levy the tax ? Do you lower the taxation threshold
before tax kicks in ? No ? Do you hammer business and enterprise ?
You see, human nature being what it is, even with the threat of a rap over the knuckles for not working (and with our laws, that's all it would be -
not as I have suggested in the past, a Victorian style work bus arrangement, think 'Cool Hand Luke' if helps here). We have an almost inexhaustible
supply of people willing to take the piss.
The balance sheet of tax v piddle takers does not look pretty.
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Last edited by John-Boy on Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ichbinsisyphos
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Who hates the English language more? The French or the British?
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disi
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Location: Out There ...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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A week?!?  That is more than I drink...
Still £30k a year for an eight-member family is not so much, I guess there is absolute no room for luxury.
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mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | We have an almost inexhaustible supply of people willing to take the piss. |
So you like to claim. It does happen of course but the vast majority of claimants are in genuine need. Does the principle of punishing the many in order to address the misbehaviour of a few also apply to other sections of society?
Many people on benefits have health problems, often mental health problems such as depression, and are suffering a great deal of anxiety and stress because of the benefits system shake up in the UK. Nowadays, even terminal cancer patients are obliged to actively seek work. The lazy scumbags, staying at home between chemotherapy treatments, sitting on their backsides when they should be out looking for a job.
I think you live in a fantasy world. You have no idea about real poverty and suffering.
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mcgruff
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | C'mon find something better ...... |
As an adult, I could cut back on food in ways I wouldn't dare do with a growing child. I could go on iron rations for a month or two, and lose half a stone in weight but kids need to be fed well with the right kinds of healthy food. I guess when they're little they don't eat a lot. They won't stay little for long though...
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | Nowadays, even terminal cancer patients are obliged to actively seek work. |
Nice attempt to muddy the waters, I have not referred to medical needs once, rather those that can work and
do not, hiding behind paperwork - bloodsucking from society. Those that you would offer succour to.
Real poverty ? Nobody will starve these days, look at the days before state handouts for an example of real
grinding poverty.
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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | John-Boy wrote: | | We have an almost inexhaustible supply of people willing to take the piss. |
So you like to claim. It does happen of course but the vast majority of claimants are in genuine need. Does the principle of punishing the many in order to address the misbehaviour of a few also apply to other sections of society?
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here, you can get generations on the dole. that's a cultural cycle that needs to be broken. |
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | Nice attempt to muddy the waters, I have not referred to medical needs once, rather those that can work and do not, hiding behind paperwork - bloodsucking from society. Those that you would offer succour to. |
You support a benefits cap fuelled by some fantasy about millions of undeserving scroungers. This punishes everyone equally, whether they are in good health or in bad.
| John-Boy wrote: | | Real poverty ? Nobody will starve these days, look at the days before state handouts for an example of real grinding poverty. |
Like I said, you haven't got a clue.
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | here, you can get generations on the dole. that's a cultural cycle that needs to be broken. |
Are you aware of any systemic factors?
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | You support a benefits cap fuelled by some fantasy about millions of undeserving scroungers.
This punishes everyone equally, whether they are in good health or in bad. |
You still haven't addressed where the taxes would come from for your 'benefits for all' policy.
Oh and topically :
Linky
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cach0rr0
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Joined: 13 Nov 2008
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Location: Houston, Republic of Texas
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | mcgruff wrote: | You support a benefits cap fuelled by some fantasy about millions of undeserving scroungers.
This punishes everyone equally, whether they are in good health or in bad. |
You still haven't addressed where the taxes would come from for your 'benefits for all' policy.
Oh and topically :
Linky |
The rich aren't paying their fair share. 50% is not enough. Anything you make over 100k should clearly be taxed at a rate of 70% |
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big dave
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Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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Location: in your base, killin all your doodz
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | mcgruff wrote: | You support a benefits cap fuelled by some fantasy about millions of undeserving scroungers.
This punishes everyone equally, whether they are in good health or in bad. |
You still haven't addressed where the taxes would come from for your 'benefits for all' policy.
Oh and topically :
Linky |
this is yet another perfect example of why communism sounds great on paper but doesn't work in reality. there are way too many greedy fucks who will take way more than they provide, even if they don't need it. |
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mcgruff
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| big dave wrote: | | this is yet another perfect example of why communism sounds great on paper but doesn't work in reality. there are way too many greedy fucks who will take way more than they provide, even if they don't need it. |
Communism...? WTF?!
FYI this isn't a means-tested benefit in the UK, which means everyone is entitled to claim it without stigma. The UK prime minister, multi-millionaire David Cameron, even claimed it for his disabled son. How about that.
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | You still haven't addressed where the taxes would come from for your 'benefits for all' policy. |
Where they always come from. It's not rocket science. Ultimately it is in everybody's best interests if the economy advances on a broad front rather than concentrating wealth and power in the hands of a minority.
Anyway, I thought we were talking about a benefits cap which is intended to reduce expenditure, not add to it. No extra taxes required.
In fact it won't because, for starters, the claimed savings are miniscule in themselves but also because they will not be realised. Secondary effects of the welfare policies will add billions to the welfare budget, as a small fortune in previously unclaimed entitlements are activated. Talk about stupid...
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | No extra taxes required. |
So in summary, you're proposing a system wherein it is possible (with penalties) to remain
on state support ad infinitum and such a system won't cost anything to run ? In fact, you're
claiming that the above system will raise revenue ?
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Not sure what you're talking about now. Maybe you should re-read the post. The UK government claims it will save (a small amount of) money with an arbitrary benefits cap. In fact their policies will trigger the uptake of a much larger sum of unclaimed benefits - potentially billions - which would dwarf any "savings".
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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 745
Location: EU
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | big dave wrote: | | this is yet another perfect example of why communism sounds great on paper but doesn't work in reality. there are way too many greedy fucks who will take way more than they provide, even if they don't need it. |
Communism...? WTF?!
FYI this isn't a means-tested benefit in the UK, which means everyone is entitled to claim it without stigma. The UK prime minister, multi-millionaire David Cameron, even claimed it for his disabled son. How about that. |
A lot of benefits aren't means tested here. We are hardly david cameron style millionaires, but we are entitled to the child benefit. Seems rather strange that people with our income should get any benefits. |
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disi
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:50 am Post subject: |
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I you want only means-tested benefits, this would also mean that you have to strip yourself in front of the government/welfare office to get it (like it is in Germany) and still there will be cases where people get benefits and do not 'really' need them.
Like BAföG or child benefits are often used by children of rich families to go on holidays etc.
Prefereable play everyone the same, who is entitled to, without to much checking...
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big dave
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Location: in your base, killin all your doodz
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | big dave wrote: | | this is yet another perfect example of why communism sounds great on paper but doesn't work in reality. there are way too many greedy fucks who will take way more than they provide, even if they don't need it. |
Communism...? WTF?!
FYI this isn't a means-tested benefit in the UK, which means everyone is entitled to claim it without stigma. The UK prime minister, multi-millionaire David Cameron, even claimed it for his disabled son. How about that. |
you're only aiding my argument... you have some "i'm entitled!" douchebag taking something he really doesn't need, all because he can. |
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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| disi wrote: | I you want only means-tested benefits, this would also mean that you have to strip yourself in front of the government/welfare office to get it (like it is in Germany) and still there will be cases where people get benefits and do not 'really' need them.
Like BAföG or child benefits are often used by children of rich families to go on holidays etc.
Prefereable play everyone the same, who is entitled to, without to much checking... |
but then what is the point? Let's suppose that 10% of people need something like child benefit. So, you create a massive state bureaucracy so that taxes get shuffled so that likes of me and david cameron can collect it, whereas only 10% of the people need it? it is possible, that you can really help out the 10% who need it by means testing an funneling resources to those who really need it.
means testing costs a lot of money, so there needs to be a cost benefit analysis. however, almost nothing here is means tested, so you have a slew of benefits being taken up by people like me (i.e. people who don't need it). |
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