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kanafan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: What is sanity? Reply with quote

How do we define sanity?

Is it a neurological state?

Or we simply call insane someone with insane ideas?

But,,.. ideas can be correct or wrong. There are no insane ideas.

8O
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop letting silly logic get in the way of 'science' by committee. How do you expect shrinks to make a living if they have to test, analyse, and prove shit?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:12 am    Post subject: Re: What is sanity? Reply with quote

kanafan wrote:
How do we define sanity?

Is it a neurological state?

Or we simply call insane someone with insane ideas?

But,,.. ideas can be correct or wrong. There are no insane ideas.

8O


Is this some sort of pot induced meta question with no answer or are you driving at some sort of post-modernist 'Everything is everything' mantra?

A person is insane when he pathologically must try to harm himself or others, despite full knowledge that the action would be detrimental. Everything else (e.g conservatism v american 'liberalism'...nihilism v humanism...atheism v theism...feasibility of perpetual motion...2012=end of the world...etc.) is up for rational discussion.

Edit: aidanjt ++
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: What is sanity? Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
A person is insane when he pathologically must try to harm himself or others, despite full knowledge that the action would be detrimental.


That's pretty good.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about people who are disconnected with reality and harm someone because they think it is a good thing to do (for example, someone who stabs someone else to death because they believe them to be a demon)? Does that not qualify as insane?

What about someone who wakes up on different days as a different personality, with discrete memories, behaviors, etc.? Not insane?

What about someone who believes they are Abraham Lincoln or Caesar? Not insane?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
What about people who are disconnected with reality and harm someone because they think it is a good thing to do (for example, someone who stabs someone else to death because they believe them to be a demon)? Does that not qualify as insane?


Put generically you are saying "Person believes [untrue statement] and [does harmful action] effecting [entity, possibly including self and/or others]." Am I correct?

If that's what you are saying then, "Doctor believes virus therapy can be beneficial to patients with certain muscle disease and infects them with a strain of the virus that he believes helps; killing the subjects." Is that not just as insane as your example?

In debate, a definition based on your example makes it possible for people to accuse their opponents of insanity rather than requiring them to use rational arguments to prove or disprove the existence of demons.

Bonekracker wrote:
What about someone who wakes up on different days as a different personality, with discrete memories, behaviors, etc.? Not insane?
Think of that as a computer running several instances of virtualized operating systems... :P Are any of the personalities insane, per my definition?

Bonekracker wrote:
What about someone who believes they are Abraham Lincoln or Caesar? Not insane?

Delusional != Insane. My 'untrained' experience with working with psychiatric patients of this nature is that they also exhibit symptoms of insanity as I've described it...cutting themselves...hearing voices that tell them to do bad things...etc.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
What about people who are disconnected with reality and harm someone because they think it is a good thing to do (for example, someone who stabs someone else to death because they believe them to be a demon)? Does that not qualify as insane?


Put generically you are saying "Person believes [untrue statement] and [does harmful action] effecting [entity, possibly including self and/or others]." Am I correct?

If that's what you are saying then, "Doctor believes virus therapy can be beneficial to patients with certain muscle disease and infects them with a strain of the virus that he believes helps; killing the subjects." Is that not just as insane as your example?

No, because a crucial consideration is whether a rational person would hold the belief in question to be reality.

bogamol wrote:
In debate, a definition based on your example makes it possible for people to accuse their opponents of insanity rather than requiring them to use rational arguments to prove or disprove the existence of demons.

No, it doesn't, because a crucial consideration is whether a rational person would hold the belief in question to be reality.

bogamol wrote:
Bonekracker wrote:
What about someone who wakes up on different days as a different personality, with discrete memories, behaviors, etc.? Not insane?
Think of that as a computer running several instances of virtualized operating systems... :P Are any of the personalities insane, per my definition?

No, because your definition is wrong. A person having split personalities is clearly insane.

bogamol wrote:
Bonekracker wrote:
What about someone who believes they are Abraham Lincoln or Caesar? Not insane?

Delusional != Insane.

I disagree. I say that a person who is deluded to the extent that they believe themselves to be Abraham Lincoln or Caesar is clearly insane.

I think you need to work on your definition.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
bogamol wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
What about people who are disconnected with reality and harm someone because they think it is a good thing to do (for example, someone who stabs someone else to death because they believe them to be a demon)? Does that not qualify as insane?


Put generically you are saying "Person believes [untrue statement] and [does harmful action] effecting [entity, possibly including self and/or others]." Am I correct?

If that's what you are saying then, "Doctor believes virus therapy can be beneficial to patients with certain muscle disease and infects them with a strain of the virus that he believes helps; killing the subjects." Is that not just as insane as your example?

No, because a crucial consideration is whether a rational person would hold the belief in question to be reality.

bogamol wrote:
In debate, a definition based on your example makes it possible for people to accuse their opponents of insanity rather than requiring them to use rational arguments to prove or disprove the existence of demons.

No, it doesn't, because a crucial consideration is whether a rational person would hold the belief in question to be reality.

bogamol wrote:
Bonekracker wrote:
What about someone who wakes up on different days as a different personality, with discrete memories, behaviors, etc.? Not insane?
Think of that as a computer running several instances of virtualized operating systems... :P Are any of the personalities insane, per my definition?

No, because your definition is wrong. A person having split personalities is clearly insane.Why? This doesn't fit with the definition of sanity being related to rationality; why can't a body be occupied by multiple personalities?

bogamol wrote:
Bonekracker wrote:
What about someone who believes they are Abraham Lincoln or Caesar? Not insane?

Delusional != Insane.

I disagree. I say that a person who is deluded to the extent that they believe themselves to be Abraham Lincoln or Caesar is clearly insane. Why, irrationality?

I think you need to work on your definition.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume you posted all that in an attempt to get an answer to what you have in bold text.

Sanity isn't solely a matter of rationality, just like it's not solely a matter of whether someone is knowingly hurting their self.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: What is sanity? Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:


Is this some sort of pot induced meta question with no answer or are you driving at some sort of post-modernist 'Everything is everything' mantra?


This isn't pot.

BoneKracker wrote:

What about someone who believes they are Abraham Lincoln or Caesar? Not insane?


These people are called liars.

BoneKracker wrote:

What about someone who wakes up on different days as a different personality, with discrete memories, behaviors, etc.? Not insane?


This ... actually happens? :? 8O
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not "wakes up different days". It just sort of happens, typically triggered by stress or cognitive dissonance; suddenly they are someone else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone questioning what "Sanity" is or more specifically what Dissociative disorders are (yes, it is a family of disorders) I highly recommend this book "The Myth of Sanity" by Dr. Martha Stout.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Person A. This person believes that there is a horse in the kitchen. No matter what you do, A is convinced that there is a horse and will not go there as long as the horse stays. Even if you carry A into the kitchen by force, A will insist that the horse is there, just behind him. Or waiting behind a door, in a cupboard or that this is not the right kitchen. Insane
Person B. This person also believes that there is a horse in the kitchen. B is willing to investigate the kitchen and after the investigation comes to the conclusion that all evidence points to no equine presence in the culinary area. Not insane.

These two examples show the problem very well.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Person A. This person believes that there is a horse in the kitchen. No matter what you do, A is convinced that there is a horse and will not go there as long as the horse stays. Even if you carry A into the kitchen by force, A will insist that the horse is there, just behind him. Or waiting behind a door, in a cupboard or that this is not the right kitchen. Insane
Person B. This person also believes that there is a horse in the kitchen. B is willing to investigate the kitchen and after the investigation comes to the conclusion that all evidence points to no equine presence in the culinary area. Not insane.

These two examples show the problem very well.

Person C. This person also believes there a horse in the kitchen. C is not willing to investigate the kitchen, because C is comfortable believing there is a horse in the kitchen, but if you carry C into the kitchen by force, C will reluctantly admit there is no horse. C is not insane; C is a dick.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reminds me of an instance where three men who believed that they were Jesus Christ were put into a room and one or two of them broke through their own disorder at least temporarily because the logical paradox was so huge.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadow Skill wrote:
Reminds me of an instance where three men who believed that they were Jesus Christ were put into a room and one or two of them broke through their own disorder at least temporarily because the logical paradox was so huge.

I was waiting for the punch line. :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that my imagination and perception of reality overlap to a great extent so it is easy for me to imagine that other people might have a similar condition.

The horse is never in the kitchen. If the horse is in the kitchen, it's not the same horse. The horse is an invisible pink unicorn. The horse does whatever you can imagine and is often in several places at once, if not orchestrating the universe. Keeping tabs on the imaginary horse and reflecting on it's potential impact on your life and work can be quite exhausting, but is manageable with medication... at least in my case.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Person A. This person believes that there is a horse in the kitchen. No matter what you do, A is convinced that there is a horse and will not go there as long as the horse stays. Even if you carry A into the kitchen by force, A will insist that the horse is there, just behind him. Or waiting behind a door, in a cupboard or that this is not the right kitchen. Insane
Person B. This person also believes that there is a horse in the kitchen. B is willing to investigate the kitchen and after the investigation comes to the conclusion that all evidence points to no equine presence in the culinary area. Not insane.

These two examples show the problem very well.


So person A is a religious person? :)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Religious fanaticism and mental illness are probably closely related. I'm not sure exactly what I was getting at by invoking the pink unicorn at that particular moment. Just thinking about horses probably. I should clarify a bit.

If I am the only person I know who can experience the unmistakable shapes and sounds of a horse making breakfast, lunch and dinner in the complete absence of an actual, tangible, horse, then possibly the international conspiracy setting up kitchenettes in my proximity and breeding horses capable of operating a spatula to alter my reality is also in my imagination.

Sometimes, especially without meds, it takes a while to get to the no-horse conclusion, especially when everybody you know seems to be talking behind your back about what the horse is going to make for lunch and how wonderful that last Supreme of pigeon en croute with cèpes mushroom sauce and cipollotti was and how did the horse get it just right? Public PA systems, radio and television may also deliver additional information related to horse movements and planned menu items. At some point, people you have never met before who are just wearing a certain color of clothing or making a single gesture or some similarly trivial thing can represent all of this and the next thing you know you're in the hospital because you screamed uncontrollably at a potential horse jockey browsing through the cooking section at the local bookstore because he seemed to be in on it and then broke down because their memory had been wiped.

Most people with mental illness self-harm, instead of lashing out. But when people really do insist the horse in is the kitchen and they say they have proof, especially if they're agitated, meds are probably the best idea.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff is that you? Stop playing around with shadow accounts, you'll get banninated.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
mcgruff is that you? Stop playing around with shadow accounts, you'll get banninated.


Nope, just babbling... was Mcgruff a somewhat functional schizophrenic?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Person A. This person believes that there is a horse .


It is possible that the animal exists and person a is completely sane. Everybody else isn't.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Person A. This person believes that there is a horse .


It is possible that the animal exists and person a is completely sane. Everybody else isn't.


One of my teachers once said the difference between a genius and a lunatic is that while they both can perceive things other people cannot see, only the genius is capable of explaining it to others.

A genius could also use their unique perception to create things that other people cannot create, without having to explain anything at all. In that case I guess they would be magicians.

Fairly complicated topic. The importance of peer review, etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think reality is a factor as well.
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