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energyman76b
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Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2009
Location: Germany
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 Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | which romney though? The romney who of romneycare? or the romney against obamacare? The pro choice romney? or the other one. |
I'm not a fan of Romney, but the issue with Romneycare & Obamacare isn't appropriate given how it is typically discussed. Romneycare provides a STATE with something it wanted (details notwithstanding). It is perfectly consistent to pass Romneycare by letting the state choose to do so, and being opposed to the federal government forcing it upon all states. That's one of the few things about Romney that doesn't give me a nervous tic.
That said, I don't think he would oppose legislation if the population overwhelmingly wanted national healthcare (we don't). |
and with we you mean you and a couple of your friends?
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| AidanJT wrote: |
...because pro-lifers (especially the catholic variety) are sick, depraved, satanic ....
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...'people' - had to clean it up to not be offensive...
"The secret of politics? Make a good treaty with Russia." |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Meaning a decisive majority of the population -- something in the neighborhood of 60%.
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Obama killed bin Laden like Nixon was the first man on the Moon. |
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energyman76b
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Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2009
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Meaning a decisive majority of the population -- something in the neighborhood of 60%. |
and you have hard numbers to back that up? because it is hard to believe that so many people are really that stupid.
http://ompldr.org/vOW0zOA
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| AidanJT wrote: |
...because pro-lifers (especially the catholic variety) are sick, depraved, satanic ....
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...'people' - had to clean it up to not be offensive...
"The secret of politics? Make a good treaty with Russia." |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 15989
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | it is hard to believe that so many people are really that stupid. |
You'd be surprised at how many stupid people there are who think nannystate is a Good Thing.
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Safety is my gaol.
US Constitution | Amendments |
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Old School
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 230
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| James Madison wrote: | | The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. The operations of the federal government will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger; those of the State governments, in times of peace and security. As the former periods will probably bear a small proportion to the latter, the State governments will here enjoy another advantage over the federal government. |
The Federal Government was intended to be far removed from legislation targeted on the citizen. That was the job of the State, following the Bill of Rights, and Interstate Commerce.
So it is quite appropriate for a State to legislate health care or free pizza on Wednesdays, and that is perfectly fine, constitutionally.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | Meaning a decisive majority of the population -- something in the neighborhood of 60%. |
and you have hard numbers to back that up? because it is hard to believe that so many people are really that stupid.
http://ompldr.org/vOW0zOA |
The news media were filled with opinion polls during Obama's first two years in office. I'm amazed you could have missed it. I'm sure you can find the information easily.
As to your chart, you are creating a false dichotomy; we are not limited to a choice between high health care costs and Obamacare (the actual intent and essence of which was not the reduction of healthcare costs, but which actually achieves its real intent, expanding coverage of the non-working, at the detriment of costs.
As I said when we discussed this before:
a) This is not a Federal issue; Obamacare would be like the EU mandating that everybody in the EU buy health insurance through the EU. This is a state issue, which can be handled effectively at state level.
b) The initial focus should be the reduction of healthcare costs, because that drives fundamental enterprise architecture considerations (the external value chain (for example, designing relationships with the pharmaceuticals and medical devices industries that actually drive down costs), creating an organization that is cost-effective rather than bureaucratic, engineering processes and metrics that are focused on cost-effectiveness rather than focusing first on coverage, creating a cost-effective infrastructure, engineering information technology that are cost effective and enable the processes and metrics). If those considerations are secondary to rapidly expanding coverage to everybody and their uncle, then significant cost savings are unlikely, and what little savings are achieved will be consumed by coverage expansion.
That result is exactly what was shown by analysis of the program by the Congressional Budget Office and the Office of Management and Budget. An exceedingly optimistic analysis shows it taking ten years to break even (after a 13-figure initial outlay that is not currently funded and would require something like a 20% increase in Federal revenues). Not only did Obama say he would abide by "pay as you go" (which means undertaking no investments that do not break even in the current year), but a ten year break-even projection on any U.S. Federal budgetary analysis is guaranteed to be bullshit. It is almost a guarantee that they backed into the 10-year breakeven point because that happens to be the maximum planning horizon for Federal Budget. In other words, it's the end of the chart, and they had to show break-even, so they jiggled the numbers until it worked out at the 10-year point. Even the OMB analysis (from withing the Executive Branch) says that the White House's figures on that are unreasonably optimistic.
Obamacare was a well-intended but poorly-conceived idea that never should have been seriously considered (because it should be done at the state level) which then got bastardized to the point of complete dysfunction in the negotiation process. It should be scrapped, and the next administration should come up with a program to facilitate optional state-level development of healthcare reform programs. Between the 50 states, different good ideas will emerge, be shared, and adopted. They will compete.
If the majority want universal health care coverage, then the Federal government could define in generic terms what that means, and mandate that the states somehow provide it by X years from now. That would then be factored into their plans while they are engineering their healthcare reform programs, which should initially and foremost be oriented at healthcare cost reduction.
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Obama killed bin Laden like Nixon was the first man on the Moon. |
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tylerwylie
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Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 455
Location: /US/Illinois/Champaign
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:29 am Post subject: |
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lol {bk,government}
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POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| tylerwylie wrote: | | lol {bk,government} |
Come over here and I'll give you a "lol", right between the butt-cheeks with life-sized bronze statue of John Galt. And no butter. 
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Obama killed bin Laden like Nixon was the first man on the Moon. |
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tylerwylie
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Diety: Butter 
That D&D character profile thing was funny in 2008. Now, not so much. It's sorta like "it's been done".
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Obama killed bin Laden like Nixon was the first man on the Moon. |
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notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Shouldn't this be El Douche Gingrich, with an optional o?
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