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Muso
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 Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: Spanair collapses |
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Spanair collapses, stranding 20,000 people
| Quote: | Spain's fourth-largest airline Spanair has collapsed, leaving more than 20,000 passengers stranded across Europe and Africa.
The Barcelona-based firm stopped operating on Friday and more than 200 flights were abruptly cancelled.
The Spanish government is taking legal action and said Spanair could be fined 9m euros (£7.6m; $11.9m) over the collapse.
In 2010, Spanair reported an operating loss of 115m euros.
The collapse comes after Qatar Airways stopped takeover talks, ending the prospect of further financing, and also reflects weak demand for air travel in Spain.
In 2008 a Spanair plane was involved in Spain's worst aviation disaster in 25 years, when it crashed on takeoff as it tried to leave Madrid's Barajas airport, killing 154 people. The aircraft's wing flaps were incorrectly positioned and a warning system failed to alert the pilots.
Ryanair's 'opportunity'
The airline was seen as a flagship of the regional government of Catalonia, which had helped it stay afloat with more than 150m euros of subsidies.
The government refused to provide more funding on Friday.
Low-cost airlines like Ryanair and Easyjet had challenged the legality of the subsidies to the European Commission.
On Monday, Ryanair said it was examining opportunities in Spain following the collapse of Spanair. "We certainly see it as an opportunity to expand our base," it said.
Spanair's collapse could lead to the loss of 4,000 jobs.
The airline was once owned by Scandinavia's SAS Airlines, which still has an 11% stake in the firm.
SAS said that the bankruptcy of Spanair would lead to write-downs of 1.7bn kronor (£160m) for the full year 2011.
Spanair has put a statement on its website with information for customers. |
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flysideways
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Tip for the liquidators: Al Qaeda is looking for good used airplanes.
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Amaranatha
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'm too lazy to post all the details, but some 80% of Spanair was bought a few years ago by the Generalitat Catalana (the regional government of Catalonia) with the intent of turning the company into a political weapon against the rest of Spain. As expected, the experiment has failed horribly, crashing what once managed to be Spain's #2 airline into the ground.
TL;DR: LOL@government (and specifically, LOL@nationalists)
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roarinelk
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Tip for the liquidators: Al Qaeda is looking for good used airplanes. |
who's going to pilot them? i doubt that they have a lot of type-rated pilots |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| roarinelk wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | Tip for the liquidators: Al Qaeda is looking for good used airplanes. |
who's going to pilot them? i doubt that they have a lot of type-rated pilots |
The pilot who flies them in for delivery, except for the "final approach", which is where Achmed takes over, after 30 hours on Microsoft Flight Simulator. Worked last time.
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hellbringer
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Amaranatha wrote: | I'm too lazy to post all the details, but some 80% of Spanair was bought a few years ago by the Generalitat Catalana (the regional government of Catalonia) with the intent of turning Barcelona's airport into a serious comeptitor to Madrid's. As expected, the experiment has failed horribly, crashing what once managed to be Spain's #2 airline into the ground.
TL;DR: LOL@government (and specifically, LOL@nationalists) |
FTFY. It also happened that they chose the worst possible airline in Spain. Spanair was fucked much before the Generalitat's acquisition.
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wildhorse
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Captain, we got to bail out! |
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Amaranatha
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| hellbringer wrote: | | FTFY. It also happened that they chose the worst possible airline in Spain. Spanair was fucked much before the Generalitat's acquisition. |
You aren't fixing anything. The intent was clearly political and the idea is completely stupid, as about every expert said.
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hellbringer
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Amaranatha wrote: | | hellbringer wrote: | | FTFY. It also happened that they chose the worst possible airline in Spain. Spanair was fucked much before the Generalitat's acquisition. |
You aren't fixing anything. The intent was clearly political and the idea is completely stupid, as about every expert said. |
Oh yes I am.
I'm fixing your spanish nationalist paranoia:
| Quote: | | with the intent of turning the company into a political weapon against the rest of Spain |
Sorry, but trying to make Barcelona's airport a competitor to centralist Madrid's airport is not "a political weapon against Spain" unless you think Madrid=Spain.
The idea was stupid specially because Spanair was a fucked up company, and also because Barcelona's El Prat airport is managed by AENA which is a central government company who would never allow for a real competitor to Madrid's Barajas. The Generalitat should have pushed for a local management of El Prat instead of buying doomed companies.
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Amaranatha
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| hellbringer wrote: | Oh yes I am.
I'm fixing your spanish nationalist paranoia:
| Quote: | | with the intent of turning the company into a political weapon against the rest of Spain |
Sorry, but trying to make Barcelona's airport a competitor to centralist Madrid's airport is not "a political weapon against Spain" unless you think Madrid=Spain. |
Nationalist paranoia is exactly the reason why the Generalitat has burned 150 M€ in this, for the benefit of no one. The very same that you display while speaking of "centralist Madrid's", BTW.
| hellbringer wrote: | | The idea was stupid specially because Spanair was a fucked up company, and also because Barcelona's El Prat airport is managed by AENA which is a central government company who would never allow for a real competitor to Madrid's Barajas. The Generalitat should have pushed for a local management of El Prat instead of buying doomed companies. |
Haha. Well, at least one bought that bullshit, it seems.
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erm67
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Amaranatha wrote: | | the Generalitat has burned 150 M€ in this, for the benefit of no one. |
Well not too much compared to the black hole of prescription drugs in Spain (6.37 billion euros?). And despite all the austerity in Spain you still pay only 1€ in the pharmacy (right?) ....
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hellbringer
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Amaranatha wrote: | | hellbringer wrote: | Oh yes I am.
I'm fixing your spanish nationalist paranoia:
| Quote: | | with the intent of turning the company into a political weapon against the rest of Spain |
Sorry, but trying to make Barcelona's airport a competitor to centralist Madrid's airport is not "a political weapon against Spain" unless you think Madrid=Spain. |
Nationalist paranoia is exactly the reason why the Generalitat has burned 150 M€ in this, for the benefit of no one.
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Since when is it nationalist paranoia to try to empower your local infraestructure?
| Quote: | | The very same that you display while speaking of "centralist Madrid's", BTW. |
Put a map of Spanish road (specially toll free roads) and train infraestructure in front of your eyes and then tell me it's not based on a "centralist Madrid". Tell me why there is still no High Speed train between Valencia and Barcelona. Tell me why *every* highway that communicates Catalunya with the rest of Spain and France is a toll road.
| Quote: |
Haha. Well, at least one bought that bullshit, it seems. |
So local management of your infraestructure is now bullshit. Yeah right. Makes sense, we should manage everything from Madrid, or from Berlin, or even better from Pekin, after all we will soon all be China's bitches. Your kind of rethoric where any attempt to gain local manegement and distribution of power is met with brainless opposition is the reason Nationalism will continue to grow in Catalunya, much to the annoyance of us non nationalists that live over here. Favouring local mangement and distributed communications and regional self governance is not nationalism. Mindlessly rethoric Madrid=Spain and Catalan=Bad Nationalism!!!! at any reasonable demand from Catalunya will however increase the nationalist sentiment.
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Last edited by hellbringer on Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:59 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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hellbringer
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | Amaranatha wrote: | | the Generalitat has burned 150 M€ in this, for the benefit of no one. |
Well not too much compared to the black hole of prescription drugs in Spain (6.37 billion euros?). And despite all the austerity in Spain you still pay only 1€ in the pharmacy (right?) .... |
It depends on the drug and the status of the patient. Spains prescription drug costs have been cut in recent years. Anyway putting a figure doesn't mean much. How does it compare to equivalent services in other countries would be a much better indication.
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Amaranatha
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| hellbringer wrote: | | Since when is it nationalist paranoia to try to empower your local infraestructure? |
"Empowering local infrastructure" != "burning 150 M€ in a retarded pissing contest that was lost before hand".
| hellbringer wrote: | | Put a map of Spanish road (specially toll free roads) and train infraestructure in front of your eyes and then tell me it's not based on a "centralist Madrid". Tell me why there is still no High Speed train between Valencia and Barcelona. Tell me why *every* highway that communicates Catalunya with the rest of Spain and France is a toll road. |
You may not have noticed, but Madrid is not only the capital, but pretty much the geographic centre of the Iberian peninsula. Now go look for Barcelona in the map. See her in the corner? That may account for something. Finally, take a demographic map and observe that, with the sole exception of Madrid, pretty much every city worth the category is by the coast. This might have an influence in the matter, as well. 
Regarding trains, Valencia has just got the AVE with Madrid and, even in that case, it's dubious whether it was a good investment. Under those conditions, why should we hurry to connect Valencia with a less important city?
As for the toll roads, that's a good question for your regional government.
| hellbringer wrote: | | So local management of your infraestructure is now bullshit. Yeah right. Makes sense, we should manage everything from Madrid, or from Berlin, or even better from Pekin, after all we will soon all be China's bitches. Your kind of rethoric where any attempt to gain local manegement and distribution of power is met with brainless opposition is the reason Nationalism will continue to grow in Catalunya, much to the annoyance of us non nationalists that live over here. Favouring local mangement and distributed communications and regional self governance is not nationalism. Mindlessly rethoric Madrid=Spain and Catalan=Bad Nationalism!!!! at any reasonable demand from Catalunya will however increase the nationalist sentiment. |
A fallacy, an hyperbole, scaremongering, more lies, and the usual drama queen rhetoric. I stand by my previous diagnosis of typical nationalist paranoia.
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ichbinsisyphos
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Shut your faces, little buddies.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Amaranatha wrote: | | hellbringer wrote: | | Since when is it nationalist paranoia to try to empower your local infraestructure? |
"Empowering local infrastructure" != "burning 150 M€ in a retarded pissing contest that was lost before hand".
| hellbringer wrote: | | Put a map of Spanish road (specially toll free roads) and train infraestructure in front of your eyes and then tell me it's not based on a "centralist Madrid". Tell me why there is still no High Speed train between Valencia and Barcelona. Tell me why *every* highway that communicates Catalunya with the rest of Spain and France is a toll road. |
You may not have noticed, but Madrid is not only the capital, but pretty much the geographic centre of the Iberian peninsula. Now go look for Barcelona in the map. See her in the corner? That may account for something. Finally, take a demographic map and observe that, with the sole exception of Madrid, pretty much every city worth the category is by the coast. This might have an influence in the matter, as well.
Regarding trains, Valencia has just got the AVE with Madrid and, even in that case, it's dubious whether it was a good investment. Under those conditions, why should we hurry to connect Valencia with a less important city?
As for the toll roads, that's a good question for your regional government.
| hellbringer wrote: | | So local management of your infraestructure is now bullshit. Yeah right. Makes sense, we should manage everything from Madrid, or from Berlin, or even better from Pekin, after all we will soon all be China's bitches. Your kind of rethoric where any attempt to gain local manegement and distribution of power is met with brainless opposition is the reason Nationalism will continue to grow in Catalunya, much to the annoyance of us non nationalists that live over here. Favouring local mangement and distributed communications and regional self governance is not nationalism. Mindlessly rethoric Madrid=Spain and Catalan=Bad Nationalism!!!! at any reasonable demand from Catalunya will however increase the nationalist sentiment. |
A fallacy, an hyperbole, scaremongering, more lies, and the usual drama queen rhetoric. I stand by my previous diagnosis of typical nationalist paranoia. |
Hey, that reminds me. I watched For Whom the Bells Toll last night.
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hellbringer
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Amarantha wrote: |
"Empowering local infrastructure" != "burning 150 M€ in a retarded pissing contest that was lost before hand". |
I agreed the plan was wrong. I don't agree trying to make El Prat an important airport is "trying to have a political weapon against the rest of Spain". The later would be the expected propaganda brainwashing of El Mundo, Abc or La Razon.
| Amaranatha wrote: |
You may not have noticed, but Madrid is not only the capital, but pretty much the geographic centre of the Iberian peninsula. Now go look for Barcelona in the map. See her in the corner? That may account for something. Finally, take a demographic map and observe that, with the sole exception of Madrid, pretty much every city worth the category is by the coast. This might have an influence in the matter, as well.
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It doesn't matter if it's the geographical center. Having a geographical doesn't mean every fucking road and train has to pass throught it. Barcelona-Valencia in case you didn't notice is the first or second most transited route in the country yet there are a lot of AVE lines that have been built much before it, and there is no toll free higway communicating both.
| Quote: |
Regarding trains, Valencia has just got the AVE with Madrid and, even in that case, it's dubious whether it was a good investment. Under those conditions, why should we hurry to connect Valencia with a less important city? |
Because Barcelona-Valencia is a *more* used route than Madrid-Valencia and because there is already a toll free highway communicating Madrid-Valencia and none Barcelona-Valencia, making the AVE line much more competitive. That's why.
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As for the toll roads, that's a good question for your regional government.
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Really? Because toll free roads in the rest of Spain are built by the central government. In case you didn't know, the Central Government is the owner and responsible of intercommunity roads. Get a fucking clue. Or should Catalunya also build the missing part of the A2 toll-free highway that passes through Aragon's Monegros? Really? 2012 and there is still no toll free highway between the two biggest Spanish cities? Another point of Spanish rancid nationalism, they don't even have a clue of the country they live in.
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A fallacy, an hyperbole, scaremongering, more lies, and the usual drama queen rhetoric. I stand by my previous diagnosis of typical nationalist paranoia. |
This coming from the guy who thinks empowering El Prat is "a political weapon against the rest of Spain". I already said I'm not a nationalist and never have voted for any nationalist party, yet anybody who disagrees with Madrid's vision of "everything must pass through Madrid" is automatically labeled as "a drama queen nationalist". And that's the reason why ultimately independentists will prevail in Catalunya. Because reasonable demands are met with stupid braindead slogans.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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I detect a veiled undercurrent of ethnic/cultural tension here. 
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hellbringer
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | I detect a veiled undercurrent of ethnic/cultural tension here. |
Hardly, I'm not even Catalan . The Spanair fuck up was something anybody who flies regularly would have been able to predict (bad service at normal prices => epic fail), and in fact I was pretty pissed of when it happened and I'm still pissed off now. However the converse is also true, a lot of Catalan (and other regions) infrastructure is managed pretty poorly, by the central government and it's always a "Madrid first!" or "electoral feud first" festival even when doesn't make any sense like the high speed train Madrid-Sevilla before Madrid-Barcelona or the high speed train Madrid-Valencia before Barcelona-Valencia, etc. Like I said before, it's 2012 and there is still no toll free highway Barcelona-Madrid or Barcelona-Valencia, the two IIRC *most* transited long routes in Spain.
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erm67
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| hellbringer wrote: | | Like I said before, it's 2012 and there is still no toll free highway Barcelona-Madrid or Barcelona-Valencia, the two IIRC *most* transited long routes in Spain. |
Need bailout money to build toll free highways?
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Well, Eastern Spain was once Iberian while Western Spain was Celtic, and then Eastern Spain got sperm injections from the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and Romans (and probably the Minoans, too). Then Northern Spain got a sperm injections from the Germans and Visigoths, and Southern Spain got sperm injections from the Arabs, Berbers, and Africans.
So, having never been to Spain, I'd expect it to be something of an ethnic patchwork not unlike the Balkans. In particular, I'd expect Northeastern Spain to reflect more Mediterranean traits, Northwestern Spain to reflect more Celtic/Gallic/Germanic traits, and Southern Spain to reflect more Arab/Berber traits. Then again, maybe this has all diffused over time.
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hellbringer
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | Well, Eastern Spain was once Iberian while Western Spain was Celtic, and then Eastern Spain got sperm injections from the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and Romans (and probably the Minoans, too). Then Northern Spain got a sperm injections from the Germans and Visigoths, and Southern Spain got sperm injections from the Arabs, Berbers, and Africans.
So, having never been to Spain, I'd expect it to be something of an ethnic patchwork not unlike the Balkans. In particular, I'd expect Northeastern Spain to reflect more Mediterranean traits, Northwestern Spain to reflect more Celtic/Gallic/Germanic traits, and Southern Spain to reflect more Arab/Berber traits. Then again, maybe this has all diffused over time. |
Diffused for sure.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Then why do you have separatists and active domestic terrorist groups and the like?
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wildhorse
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Then why do you have separatists and active domestic terrorist groups and the like? |
And why do you have the same, plus global terrorism - import and export? |
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