| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 745
Location: EU
|
 Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: 6 years on, who's right? keynes/obama vs european austerity |
 |
|
since I don't expect BK to post on this, europe is collapsing, but the US is coming out this mess slowly but surely.
Europe's fuct 1
Europe's fuct 2
US not fuct
perhaps americans should be thankful for obama instead of cameron </runs> |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
tylerwylie
Guru
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 455
Location: /US/Illinois/Champaign
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Definitely a case of the lolconomics.
lol
_________________
POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 745
Location: EU
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tylerwylie wrote: | Definitely a case of the lolconomics.
lol |
somehow i found your response low on content and information  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tylerwylie
Guru
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 455
Location: /US/Illinois/Champaign
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| juniper wrote: | | tylerwylie wrote: | Definitely a case of the lolconomics.
lol |
somehow i found your response low on content and information |
I need to sleep before I go to work, I will suffer through the brainrot and debunk for you later 
Just remember, Keynes was almost always wrong. The only reason his theories got plucked from all of the other competing, better theories was because he provided a pseudo-scientific rationale for the State to expand.
_________________
POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: 6 years on, who's right? keynes/obama vs european auste |
|
|
Well the British press only focus to austerity decision from today meeting, but we expect other news as well, like an EU employment agency, coordination and EU equivalence for apprenticeship contracts and other news relative to growth measures. Austerity and fiscal compact are news of the past, both done things already.
The Great Depression came right after WWI, in economies that still did not recover fully from the war, hard to find parallels between the two depressions.
Good if USian are going to have more money to import from the EU
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 745
Location: EU
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tylerwylie wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | tylerwylie wrote: | Definitely a case of the lolconomics.
lol |
somehow i found your response low on content and information |
I need to sleep before I go to work, I will suffer through the brainrot and debunk for you later
Just remember, Keynes was almost always wrong. The only reason his theories got plucked from all of the other competing, better theories was because he provided a pseudo-scientific rationale for the State to expand. |
the basic idea now is that austerity is needed, but keep the cash flowing until the economy picks up.
it is all strange because i live in an economic bubble (london). There are signs of a weak economy in parts, but in other parts it is just humming along. property prices haven't dipped at all (although that may change). of course, the BIG PARTY happens this summer here, and who knows the effect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aCOSwt
Veteran
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 1509
Location: Between the keyboard and the chair
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| juniper wrote: | | the basic idea now is that austerity is needed |
Austerity is not an idea. Austerity is a concept. A basic ordinary concept.
UE is an idea.
Since your leaders have no will to understand the idea, they must resort to basic ordinary concepts.
It's a bit like if you said that the basic idea now is that udev is needed without sharing the idea of hotpluging 
_________________
In theory there are no differences between theory and practice. In practice, there are. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1096
Location: Rep. of Ireland
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Austerity with tax increases weakens the economy? Who'd have thought?
_________________
| drizek wrote: | | Here in America, we are like a bunch of shit-slinging monkeys. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
richk449
Guru
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 345
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=12891&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Themoneyillusion+%28TheMoneyIllusion%29
| Quote: | Some are now forecasting that Britain will slip into a recession next year. If America was expected to slide into recession next year due to insufficient demand, you’d see articles bashing Bernanke and the Fed all over the blogosphere. I’m not seeing articles bashing the Bank of England. Why not?
[Yes, there weren't any articles bashing the Fed for tight money as we slid into our 2008 recession, but that was before the rise of market monetarism. They'd never again get away Scott-free. ]
Perhaps it’s the stoic attitude of the British. (“Mustn’t grumble.”) But I am seeing article after article claiming that the coming recession is due to fiscal tightening. I was curious to see just how tight British fiscal policy actually is, so I checked the “Economic and Financial indicators” section at the back of a recent issue of The Economist. They list indicators for 44 countries, including virtually all of the important economies in the world. Here are the three biggest budget deficits of 2011:
1. Egypt 10% of GDP
2. Greece: 9.5% of GDP
3. Britain: 8.8% of GDP
Egypt was thrown into turmoil by a revolution in early 2011. Greece is, well, we all know about Greece. And then there’s Great Britain, third biggest deficit in the world.
I suppose some Keynesians work backward, if there is a demand problem it must, ipso facto, be due to lack of fiscal stimulus. If the deficit is third largest in the world, it should have been second largest, or first largest. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 128
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tylerwylie wrote: | | Just remember, Keynes was almost always wrong. |
Lol.
_________________
the underlay overlay |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1271
Location: U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't think it's clear yet who's coming out of this, when, and in what shape.
But, I'd like to point out that when Obama went over there and told you guys you were doing it wrong, I did tell you to listen.
_________________
Obama killed bin Laden like Nixon was the first man on the Moon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wildhorse
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Estados Unidos De América
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BoneKracker wrote: | I don't think it's clear yet who's coming out of this, when, and in what shape.
But, I'd like to point out that when Obama went over there and told you guys you were doing it wrong, I did tell you to listen. |
Instead we put an experimental CIA-infested Egyptian cucumber into your butt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1271
Location: U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wildhorse wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | I don't think it's clear yet who's coming out of this, when, and in what shape.
But, I'd like to point out that when Obama went over there and told you guys you were doing it wrong, I did tell you to listen. |
Instead we put an experimental CIA-infested Egyptian cucumber into your butt. |
I didn't even notice. The Government has been putting lots of things in there lately, of gradually increasing size.
_________________
Obama killed bin Laden like Nixon was the first man on the Moon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hellbringer
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 82
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| richk449 wrote: | http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=12891&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Themoneyillusion+%28TheMoneyIllusion%29
| Quote: | Some are now forecasting that Britain will slip into a recession next year. If America was expected to slide into recession next year due to insufficient demand, you’d see articles bashing Bernanke and the Fed all over the blogosphere. I’m not seeing articles bashing the Bank of England. Why not?
[Yes, there weren't any articles bashing the Fed for tight money as we slid into our 2008 recession, but that was before the rise of market monetarism. They'd never again get away Scott-free. ]
Perhaps it’s the stoic attitude of the British. (“Mustn’t grumble.”) But I am seeing article after article claiming that the coming recession is due to fiscal tightening. I was curious to see just how tight British fiscal policy actually is, so I checked the “Economic and Financial indicators” section at the back of a recent issue of The Economist. They list indicators for 44 countries, including virtually all of the important economies in the world. Here are the three biggest budget deficits of 2011:
1. Egypt 10% of GDP
2. Greece: 9.5% of GDP
3. Britain: 8.8% of GDP
Egypt was thrown into turmoil by a revolution in early 2011. Greece is, well, we all know about Greece. And then there’s Great Britain, third biggest deficit in the world.
I suppose some Keynesians work backward, if there is a demand problem it must, ipso facto, be due to lack of fiscal stimulus. If the deficit is third largest in the world, it should have been second largest, or first largest. |
|
A kenynesian will argue the opposite. Austerity measures implemented in Greece, Spain, UK, et. al are not working, they are increasing the recession and they are not cutting the deficit. Same facts, many interpretations...
_________________
There is a lot of novelty and truth in what you say, but that which is true is not novel and that which is novel is not true. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 15989
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: 6 years on, who's right? keynes/obama vs european auste |
|
|
| juniper wrote: | | perhaps americans should be thankful for obama |
Thank Dbag Barry for stagflation? Uhm, no.
_________________
Safety is my gaol.
US Constitution | Amendments |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1271
Location: U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If we had pulled a Belgium and not elected anybody at all, and taken no corrective economic action, we'd probably have been out of this by now. By the way, Obama wants to extend more bailouts to defaulting homeowners, again (despite the fact that 80% of the people who got the last wave defaulted anyway).
Vote for me! I hook you up!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlhBSWVMnG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRgB2eeHZEw
_________________
Obama killed bin Laden like Nixon was the first man on the Moon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hellbringer wrote: | | Austerity measures implemented in Greece, Spain, UK, et. al are not working, they are increasing the recession and they are not cutting the deficit. Same facts, many interpretations... |
The Spanish idea of austerity :
| Amaranatha wrote: | I'm too lazy to post all the details, but some 80% of Spanair was bought a few years ago by the Generalitat Catalana (the regional government of Catalonia) with the intent of turning Barcelona's airport into a serious comeptitor to Madrid's. As expected, the experiment has failed horribly, crashing what once managed to be Spain's #2 airline into the ground.
TL;DR: LOL@government (and specifically, LOL@nationalists) |
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
petrjanda
Veteran
Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 1556
Location: Brno, Czech Republic
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
Austerity measures are nearly always a problem when government gets too big and involved in running the economy (contracts, subsidies, welfare etc). If a government spends 15% of GDP it's twice less of a problem than when it spends 30% of GDP. Combine that with high regulation of market place, inability to hire new workers quickly and so on, it's simply bad.
Unfortunately austerity is the only long term solution as long as the money is borrowed from private investors. Given the amount of debt private and public in the developed world, it's no longer possible to outgrow the debt in terms of GDP. The debt bubble has been exploding for many decades and can be traced all the way to the start of central banking.
Keynes's theory that government can support economy in times of trouble is very problematic because it can only work for minor recessions that don't involve high public/private debt. If government spends with 8% budget deficit to keep GDP at 2% growth, investors are eventually gonna turn away. In the end, the well is dry and you are in more debt than you started with and that's much worse.
_________________
There is, a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. If that unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded were not, there would be no escape from this here that is born, become, made and compounded. - Gautama Siddharta |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hellbringer
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 82
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| erm67 wrote: |
The Spanish idea of austerity :
| Amaranatha wrote: | I'm too lazy to post all the details, but some 80% of Spanair was bought a few years ago by the Generalitat Catalana (the regional government of Catalonia) with the intent of turning Barcelona's airport into a serious comeptitor to Madrid's. As expected, the experiment has failed horribly, crashing what once managed to be Spain's #2 airline into the ground.
TL;DR: LOL@government (and specifically, LOL@nationalists) |
|
That was done when Spain was on surplus, not now. Actually, Spain is a classic example of how classical economical policies have failed. We had a very balanced budget, low debt and a majorly privatized housing sector. And then it all went fucked up.
_________________
There is a lot of novelty and truth in what you say, but that which is true is not novel and that which is novel is not true. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 745
Location: EU
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| petrjanda wrote: |
Keynes's theory that government can support economy in times of trouble is very problematic because it can only work for minor recessions that don't involve high public/private debt. If government spends with 8% budget deficit to keep GDP at 2% growth, investors are eventually gonna turn away. In the end, the well is dry and you are in more debt than you started with and that's much worse. |
this is where the balancing act comes. if the govt spends and creates a big deficit WITH BIG GROWTH, it can inflate its way out of debt. Markets may catch on, but currently that is the main difference between Greece and Britain (growth). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
richk449
Guru
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 345
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hellbringer wrote: |
A kenynesian will argue the opposite. Austerity measures implemented in Greece, Spain, UK, et. al are not working, they are increasing the recession and they are not cutting the deficit. Same facts, many interpretations... |
Sure, you can argue anything you want, but how much sense does it make to call it an austerity budget if you are spending more then you are taking in? Isn't spending less then you are receiving sorta a basic principle of austerity? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1096
Location: Rep. of Ireland
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| richk449 wrote: | | Sure, you can argue anything you want, but how much sense does it make to call it an austerity budget if you are spending more then you are taking in? Isn't spending less then you are receiving sorta a basic principle of austerity? |
They're calling it austerity as a smokescreen for redirecting public service funds into private companies and bondsmen.
_________________
| drizek wrote: | | Here in America, we are like a bunch of shit-slinging monkeys. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ichbinsisyphos
Guru
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 535
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
They are calling it austerity budget because the government is spending less. the end.
_________________
Please refer to "Austria" as "Republik Österreich" or "Republik Oesterreich" to avoid misunderstandings. Thank you.
| Muso wrote: | | I've done a lot of LSD |
| BoneKracker wrote: | | I have an IQ in the 140s |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 130
Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| aidanjt wrote: | | richk449 wrote: | | Sure, you can argue anything you want, but how much sense does it make to call it an austerity budget if you are spending more then you are taking in? Isn't spending less then you are receiving sorta a basic principle of austerity? |
They're calling it austerity as a smokescreen for redirecting public service funds into private companies and bondsmen. |
private companies bound to be bankrupt soon and be rescued as public services. Better allow (new?) private companies to fairly compete with public services and not risk a double failure.
(Spanair)
_________________
Truck!!
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
Πάντα ῥεῖ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1096
Location: Rep. of Ireland
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | They are calling it austerity budget because the government is spending less. the end. |
Which explains why British spending is up, substantially so, over the last few years.
_________________
| drizek wrote: | | Here in America, we are like a bunch of shit-slinging monkeys. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Off the Wall
