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runningwithscissors
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 Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | so parents that argue all the time or even attack each other are to be prefered over parents who live happy lifes? |
In my case, yeah.
I'm sure a lot of others feel similarly.
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Muso
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | so parents that argue all the time or even attack each other are to be prefered over parents who live happy lifes? |
We call that a false dichotomy over here.
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| ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | You know, personally I've never been the greatest fan of Negroes |
The Philosophy of Liberty |
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erm67
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
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Location: somewhere in Berlusconia.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | Sweden:
Lone mothers: 22%
out of wedlock childbirths: 55%
Total fertility rate: 1.67 children born/woman
How do you explain that? |
Hmm... maybe a lot of them get married after they have a baby? |
Maybe not, considering the 55% divorce rate there if the family is stable why bother?
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | so parents that argue all the time or even attack each other are to be prefered over parents who live happy lifes? |
We call that a false dichotomy over here. |
really?
so let me rephrase that:
parents a hate each other and stick together. They argue all the time.
parents b divorced and both live happy lifes.
Which one is less traumatic for everybody involved? Selfishness and all?
I am surprised by the amount of conservative orthodoxy spilled in this forum all the time. Next stop: force everybody to pray in school? Ban women from wearing pants? Oh.. I got one! Only house owners who make at least 100 000 a year are allowed to vote.
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...because pro-lifers (especially the catholic variety) are sick, depraved, satanic ....
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...'people' - had to clean it up to not be offensive...
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Muso
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:55 am Post subject: |
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You can keep tripping over the same false dichotomy, it won't change a thing. The assumption that divorce leads to happier lives and marriage is nothing but people hating each other is ridiculous.
A stable home is preferable for a child. If that home is provided by the same married couple that produced the child, all the more better. But conflict and strife which has an actual negative effect on a child is obviously not an ideal for anyone.
So, just drop the nonsense argument.
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| ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | You know, personally I've never been the greatest fan of Negroes |
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genstorm
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:02 am Post subject: |
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My nephew as 2+2 parents. He also has 3 half-sibs in total on both sides, no one of the involved adults was ever married. He would laugh at this conservative circle jerk.
It all comes down to how grown-up the parents are handling their split-up. Married or not - completely irrelevant.
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Last edited by genstorm on Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Prenj
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: | | A stable home is preferable for a child. If that home is provided by the same married couple that produced the child, all the more better. But conflict and strife which has an actual negative effect on a child is obviously not an ideal for anyone. |
+++ |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | so parents that argue all the time or even attack each other are to be prefered over parents who live happy lifes? |
If you are arguing that parents who live together are not always better for a child than those who don't, then I think you can just take a rest, because that's obvious and common sense. Nothing is absolute, and there are always exceptions to the general case.
But if you think that demonstrating an exception is a successful attack on the general case, it's not (unless you're talking to an absolutist).
It's even more obvious and common sense that parents who both live in the same home as the child, who are on good terms with each other and collaborate on parenting and managing a household and their lives, are generally going to be more successful at parenting the child.
It's been my experience that, if somebody is having behavioral problems, substance abuse problems, legal problems, .... attitude problems... you name it... the odds are that they came from a broken home (i.e., "more often than not", they came from a broken home). It seems to cause enormous harm to so many people.
It's only fair to note that correlation is not causation and that some percentage of these people are suffering, at least in part, not due to the unusual parenting arrangements, but from whatever made the family dysfunctional to begin with (substance abuse by a parent, sexual abuse, physical domestic abuse, etc.). But I consider all of that to be part and parcel of "a broken home".
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secretcorporation
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | secretcorporation wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | John-Boy wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | , you should have to be seriously neglectful to have your kids taken away (drug addict, no food etc). |
Or on state welfare |
The dissolution of the family unit is a natural consequence of socialism. Like Hillary says, "It takes a village to raise a child." That state becomes mommy and daddy. |
Have you ever been to Norway? My guess is no. |
Not Norway, no.
What's your point? That you have been, and are an expert on the sociology of Norway? That Norway's not socialist? That, unlike its neighbor, Sweden, Norway has strong family units? That there aren't more Norwegians in North Dakota than there are in Norway? That Norwegians do not have big noses and teeth and are not considered to look like fish by Asians? |
My point is you're making the usual ill informed ignorant rant based on your own prejudices. The "socialist" nations at the far north of Europe have far happier healthier societies than the USA according to many internationally recognized measures.
Having lived the USA for the last 3 years I can't see what is so superior about the American way of doing things. For sure the American business World is probably more advanced, far more focused than the my previous employers in the UK.
Everything else such as the quality of general consumer items, transport infrastructure, health care, the cost of higher education etc. seems somewhat poorer comparably.
My wife just spent some time in a "capitalist" hospital, the quality of the nursing care was shocking, to me they just seemed lazy.
As far as I can see the middle class in America has been fucked over by both parties and the political system is so broken I don't see a solution.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see how this has any bearing on what we were talking about (the fact that the dissolution of the family construct is a natural consequence of higher levels of socialism).
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juniper
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | I don't see how this has any bearing on what we were talking about (the fact that the dissolution of the family construct is a natural consequence of higher levels of socialism). |
didn't i call bullshit on that pages ago?
here is something else natural. socialism in sweden -> better public education -> less women likely to get knocked in stupid circumstances -> more kids in wedlock. Natural, no?
let the stats do the talking. AFAIK, only RWS has posted any and they prove shit. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | I don't see how this has any bearing on what we were talking about (the fact that the dissolution of the family construct is a natural consequence of higher levels of socialism). |
didn't i call bullshit on that pages ago?
here is something else natural. socialism in sweden -> better public education -> less women likely to get knocked in stupid circumstances -> more kids in wedlock. Natural, no?
let the stats do the talking. AFAIK, only RWS has posted any and they prove shit. |
Yeah, let the stats do the talking. I recall reading an in-depth article about this phenomenon in Sweden, so I'm comfortable with what the stats are. Feel free to continue flapping your lips in ignorance or to find out the facts for yourself.
The unmarried mothers in Sweden aren't unwed because they don't know how to prevent pregnancy or because the fathers absconded. They are unmarried because the mothers don't need the economic support of a husband, because the state provides. Many of these women are living with the father, but an increasing number have made the conscious decision to be a single parent.
I made no judgment regarding whether this is a bad thing, or whether these kids will turn out fucked up or not. I simply said that dissolution of the family unit is a natural consequence of socialism, and I stand by that statement. I also really don't care what you believe.
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erm67
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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I posted the stats already:
Sweden:
Lone mothers: 22%
out of wedlock childbirths: 55%
Total fertility rate: 1.67 children born/woman
less than half of the swedish unmarried woman is growing up the child alone (and thus qualify for welfare) the others are 'not alone' and qualify for welfare in the same measure as 'regularly married families', in Sweden (and elsewhere) 'not alone' doesn't mean married.
The fertility rate stats shows that it not that 22% of lone mothers having all those kids 
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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In the U.S., it's the unwed mothers cranking out babies. While some small percentage of mothers are unmarried, something like 40% of babies are born to unwed mothers, and there is a high correlation to certain demographics (the demographics that are on public assistance).
Details here:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/unmarry.htm
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erm67
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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The Swedish Statistics Institute (official stats) has a website in english I can't find a way to get stats for the entire nation, but let's take Stockholm as an example:
| Quote: |
Mean population by region, marital status, age, sex and period
2010
A-01 Stockholms/Södertälje A-region
single
total
women 508496.0
married
total
women 315237.5
widowers/widows
total
women 59986.0
divorced
total
women 118030.0
Important footnotes:
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Total women is 1001749, it is easy to do the math: 50% unmarried or single, 31% married, 6% widow, 12% divorcedù
No one marries there apparently
url: http://www.ssd.scb.se
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erm67
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | In the U.S., it's the unwed mothers cranking out babies. While some small percentage of mothers are unmarried, something like 40% of babies are born to unwed mothers, and there is a high correlation to certain demographics (the demographics that are on public assistance).
Details here:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/unmarry.htm |
| Quote: | Cohabitation is increasingly
becoming the first co-residential union
formed among young adults.
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| Quote: |
By 2001, the
majority of nonmarital births (52%)
occurred within cohabiting unions,
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details here:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_028.pdf
Don't know there but here cohabiting=marriage for the taxmen and welfare.
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secretcorporation
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | I don't see how this has any bearing on what we were talking about (the fact that the dissolution of the family construct is a natural consequence of higher levels of socialism). |
Your argument is sophistry.
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juniper
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: |
Yeah, let the stats do the talking. I recall reading an in-depth article about this phenomenon in Sweden, so I'm comfortable with what the stats are. Feel free to continue flapping your lips in ignorance or to find out the facts for yourself.
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my apologies for not counting an article that you read as evidence for the rest of us. how silly of me. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: |
Yeah, let the stats do the talking. I recall reading an in-depth article about this phenomenon in Sweden, so I'm comfortable with what the stats are. Feel free to continue flapping your lips in ignorance or to find out the facts for yourself.
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my apologies for not counting an article that you read as evidence for the rest of us. how silly of me. |
Don't apologize to me; I already told you I don't care whether you believe it or not.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| secretcorporation wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | I don't see how this has any bearing on what we were talking about (the fact that the dissolution of the family construct is a natural consequence of higher levels of socialism). |
Your argument is sophistry. |
If you say so.
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| genstorm wrote: | | My nephew as 2+2 parents. He also has 3 half-sibs in total on both sides, no one of the involved adults was ever married. He would laugh at this conservative circle jerk. |
Yeah, desiring to be in a family with your biological parents is so passe and conservative.
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genstorm
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Biological parents are so totally overrated.
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| genstorm wrote: | | Biological parents are so totally overrated. |
Let's start handing women any random child when they leave the maternity ward. Would save a lot of trouble with tracking which baby belongs to which parent.
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erm67
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: | | Would save a lot of trouble with tracking which baby belongs to which parent. |
We have birth certificates for that, also useful in case of frequent divorce and remarrying.
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ichbinsisyphos
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Socialist countries like Norway and Sweden often have birth certificates.
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