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runningwithscissors
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 Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | Socialist countries like Norway and Sweden often have birth certificates. |
And problems with English comprehension.
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erm67
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: | | ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | Socialist countries like Norway and Sweden often have birth certificates. |
And problems with English comprehension. |
Biological (maybe) parents written in the birth certificate have automatically parental responsibility in the EU since 2003. As long as they live together as a family (de facto or regular), both have the same rights and responsibilities. In case of breakup national laws differ but the current trend is shared parenting where both biological parents retain the same rights and responsibilities even if they no longer live together.
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | runningwithscissors wrote: | | ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | Socialist countries like Norway and Sweden often have birth certificates. |
And problems with English comprehension. |
Biological (maybe) parents written in the birth certificate have automatically parental responsibility in the EU since 2003. As long as they live together as a family (de facto or regular), both have the same rights and responsibilities. In case of breakup national laws differ but the current trend is shared parenting where both biological parents retain the same rights and responsibilities even if they no longer live together. |
The problem with English comprehension extends all the way to Italy.
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erm67
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | | runningwithscissors wrote: | | ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | Socialist countries like Norway and Sweden often have birth certificates. |
And problems with English comprehension. |
Biological (maybe) parents written in the birth certificate have automatically parental responsibility in the EU since 2003. As long as they live together as a family (de facto or regular), both have the same rights and responsibilities. In case of breakup national laws differ but the current trend is shared parenting where both biological parents retain the same rights and responsibilities even if they no longer live together. |
The problem with English comprehension extends all the way to Italy. |
| runningwithscissors wrote: |
Yeah, desiring to be in a family with your biological parents is so passe and conservative. |
I was trying to explain that it is de-facto passé but is regulated by our laws and the current trend in legislation keeps into account this desire.
Since marriage was no longer a way to satisfy the need of both parents for childrens a new set of laws recognize the children right of having both biological parents. No matter if your mother marries 20 times, parental responsibility will always remain to the biological father (the guy in the birth certificate) unless non opportune, i.e. drugs jail violence.... The judge can also order shared parenting.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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I heard Nazis raped women in the countries they invaded, then put them in hospitals for gestation, and took the babies away, giving them to other Nazis who wanted babies. Did they have birth certificates too?
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erm67
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | I heard Nazis raped women in the countries they invaded, then put them in hospitals for gestation, and took the babies away, giving them to other Nazis who wanted babies. Did they have birth certificates too? |
Don't know, what movie was that?
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | I heard Nazis raped women in the countries they invaded, then put them in hospitals for gestation, and took the babies away, giving them to other Nazis who wanted babies. Did they have birth certificates too? |
Don't know, what movie was that? |
Not a movie, and if you read more, you'd know about it already.
I believe it was called the "Lebensborn" program. German women were encourage to "bear children for the Fuhrer", and women who had children out of wedlock were treated with honor, provided the baby was ethnically acceptable. SS, Gestapo, and military officers (all of whom had already been screened for the proper genetic background) were unofficially encouraged to consort with and impregnate both unmarried German women and women in occupied countries, particularly if the women appeared to be Aryan. If such a woman became pregnant, there was an active and well-managed program by which they were packed up and shipped off to a hospital in the Homeland, where they were very well taken care of. The children were then placed in special orphanages and adopted by good Germans unable to bear children of their own (as I recall, the SS having priority).
But here, you can find out for yourself. Here's a book: From nurturing the nation to purifying the Volk: Weimar and Nazi family policy, 1918--1945, By Michelle Mouton. Start on page 211.
And here's another reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn
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Last edited by BoneKracker on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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erm67
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: |
Read the book, From nurturing the nation to purifying the Volk: Weimar and Nazi family policy, 1918--1945, By Michelle Mouton.. |
Yeah, I know the story, but if I remember correctly it was one the stories fabricated by some West German editors specialized in this kind of stunts to boost sales, fanta-nazi was a highly succesful literary genre for some time, and apparently still sells very good.
Try real history books instead of fanta-nazi paperback from the metro station 
More or less like the current fanta-mafia genre produced by some Italian editors ....
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: |
Read the book, From nurturing the nation to purifying the Volk: Weimar and Nazi family policy, 1918--1945, By Michelle Mouton.. |
Yeah, I know the story, but if I remember correctly it was one the stories fabricated by some West German editors specialized in this kind of stunts to boost sales, fanta-nazi was a highly succesful literary genre for some time, and apparently still sells very good.
Try real history books instead of fanta-nazi paperback from the metro station
More or less like the current fanta-mafia genre produced by some Italian editors .... |
I don't think that book is sensationalist. I also (in an edit, above) provided a Wiki page which has some other references. The bottom line is that it was a thinly-veiled breeding program, intended to boost the Aryan population. While there was sensationalism associated with this, I don't find that much doubtful or "fantastic" at all. It seems pretty consistent with overall Nazi policy to me.
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genstorm
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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your point being...?
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erm67
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parens_patriae
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Parens patriae is Latin for "parent of the nation." In law, it refers to the public policy power of the state to intervene against an abusive or negligent parent, legal guardian or informal caretaker, and to act as the parent of any child or individual who is in need of protection. For example, some children, incapacitated individuals, and disabled individuals lack parents who are able and willing to render adequate care, requiring state intervention. |
parens patriae + aryanisierung in nazi sauce
So what is the point?
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| genstorm wrote: | | your point being...? |
My point being that Austrians are Nazis and can't be trusted with children. 
It was just an interesting historical vignette about the state taking children from parents for the good of society.
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erm67
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | genstorm wrote: | | your point being...? |
My point being that Austrians are Nazis and can't be trusted with children.
It was just an interesting historical vignette about the state taking children from parents for the good of society. |
Fortunately now Austrian also recognize EU laws like:
| Quote: | | Within the EU, the right of the child to be heard in any proceedings is a fundamental right provided in Article 24 Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. The views of the child shall be considered on matters which concern them in accordance with their age and maturity. It also provides that the child's best interest shall be the primary consideration in all actions relating to children, whether taken by public authorities or private institutions. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Right there is a good reason never to have children. The moment you do, your interests are subordinate to (not equal to) those of the children, in the eyes of the law.
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notageek
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:47 am Post subject: |
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Just wanted to say that, earlier in the day yesterday I was going to post that but didn't.
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erm67
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Right there is a good reason never to have children. The moment you do, your interests are subordinate to (not equal to) those of the children, in the eyes of the law. |
It just means that it is not possible for one of the biological parents to take all decisions, the child also has something to say, if he wants/needs to keep in contact with both biological parents the judge can order that arrangment.
Divorce has to a be an agreement of all parts considered equal, father, mother and children.
Since 2006 in 96% of cases the judge ordered 'shared parenting', and it is working very well apparently.
| Quote: | | It also provides that the child's best interest shall be the primary consideration in all actions relating to children, whether taken by public authorities or private institutions. |
That is just the parens partriae principle in US legislation.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Not exactly. It says "primary consideration in all actions pertaining to children". The word "primary" has meaning. Maybe this an inaccurate quote or translation, or a stupidly-worded law. This is not the same as parens patriae, which basically means that the state should exercise parental authority to prevent child neglect and abuse.
Taken literally "primary consideration in all actions pertaining to children" means that you can't buy that motorcycle, because every spare dime ought to be going into little Johnny's college fund, whether you think so or not.
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erm67
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | This is not the same as parens patriae, which basically means that the state should exercise parental authority to prevent child neglect and abuse. |
The EU normative only adds that this should be done in the best interest of the child and that needs and wishes of children has to be taken into consideration, not only those of the divorcing parents.
| BoneKracker wrote: |
Taken literally "primary consideration in all actions pertaining to children" means that you can't buy that motorcycle, because every spare dime ought to be going into little Johnny's college fund, whether you think so or not. |
Parents are neither a public authority nor a private institution ....
| Quote: | | whether taken by public authorities or private institutions |
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