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tylerwylie
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 Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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lol
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sugar
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Location: Morrinsville, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | I haven't thought much about non-profits. My instinct is that they should be banned! but I'll have to consider it some more. |
Why would you ban non-profits? I mean I get the need to regulate charities which piss money up and down their offices without spending any significant amount of the stated charity case of the organisation, but that aside, non-profits are inherently more ethically sound than for-profits, which seek to exploit the working class to provide the wealthy with an ever widening stream of unearned cash. |
because I can't see any way to differentiate between a gift of a donation to a charity, and a regular gift.
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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do you have anything constructive to bring to the table for this crazy fever dream on a socio/political concept? Something other than your opinion, that is?
I'm not really wanting to defend it, just to flesh it out.
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| sugar wrote: | | because I can't see any way to differentiate between a gift of a donation to a charity, and a regular gift. |
Then don't?
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| drizek wrote: | | Here in America, we are like a bunch of shit-slinging monkeys. |
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | because I can't see any way to differentiate between a gift of a donation to a charity, and a regular gift. |
Then don't? |
People don't earn gifts from their own efforts, so it's against the basic fundamental rule of Earnianism
Charities don't earn donations. Donations are given, but the work is done AFTER it is given.
So, maybe, in an Earnian society, charities will be free to do their work, but can only expect donations after work has been done. This means there will be a greater empahsis on organisations that are zero-profit, rather than straight charities that ask for donations.
I suppose that might work.
I'm starting to get the feeling that this thread will end, I'll forget about it, and read in the news paper in 30 years time that some African nation has converted its socio-political system to Earnianism.
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pjp
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:54 am Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| sugar wrote: | sure, there are gaps that need to be filled.
Lets say that instead of paper money, we had swipe cards, and at the central bank, accounting records were kept that had the perspective that each person was a single accounting entity. When they are born, they are issued with a 'money card', and as they work and earn money, money is loaded onto their card, and each dollar is issued to them only. Over a lifetime, assets are accrued, and every year/six months, you received a balance sheet, and a profit and loss statement, so you know how you are going. When you die, instead of physically burning everything, the wealth can be just wiped off the books at the central bank. |
Holy shit dude! Kill it. I mean, seriously kill it. I believe that was accurately described earlier as evil. I'll add 'pure.'
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sugar
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:22 am Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| pjp wrote: | | sugar wrote: | sure, there are gaps that need to be filled.
Lets say that instead of paper money, we had swipe cards, and at the central bank, accounting records were kept that had the perspective that each person was a single accounting entity. When they are born, they are issued with a 'money card', and as they work and earn money, money is loaded onto their card, and each dollar is issued to them only. Over a lifetime, assets are accrued, and every year/six months, you received a balance sheet, and a profit and loss statement, so you know how you are going. When you die, instead of physically burning everything, the wealth can be just wiped off the books at the central bank. |
Holy shit dude! Kill it. I mean, seriously kill it. I believe that was accurately described earlier as evil. I'll add 'pure.' |
the best part is, it doesn't even need to be administered. Once it all gets set up, you could probably just leave it.
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pjp
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:32 am Post subject: |
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And as soon as it was left, it would be overthrown. Assuming it didn't lead to a bloody coup in the first place.
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sugar
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | And as soon as it was left, it would be overthrown. Assuming it didn't lead to a bloody coup in the first place. |
proabably not bloody, but it wouldn't end so well for the machine running the mysql database that ran the monetary system.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Why not just put everybody in little cages with food pellet dispensers, water drip bottles, and a constantly-moving conveyor belt below that carries away the shit that drops through the cage floor?
Why don't you just admit that you're a Communist? You're trying to come up with an alternative that is acceptably libertarian, but you can't even come up with something that makes an iota of sense, because at heart your Communist thinking just takes over.
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sugar
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | Why not just put everybody in little cages with food pellet dispensers, water drip bottles, and a constantly-moving conveyor belt below that carries away the shit that drops through the cage floor?
Why don't you just admit that you're a Communist? You're trying to come up with an alternative that is acceptably libertarian, but you can't even come up with something that makes an iota of sense, because at heart your Communist thinking just takes over. |
is it too much to preserve the sanctity and moral worth of the individual?
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Prenj
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Joined: 20 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | Why not just put everybody in little cages with food pellet dispensers, water drip bottles, and a constantly-moving conveyor belt below that carries away the shit that drops through the cage floor?
Why don't you just admit that you're a Communist? You're trying to come up with an alternative that is acceptably libertarian, but you can't even come up with something that makes an iota of sense, because at heart your Communist thinking just takes over. |
is it too much to preserve the sanctity and moral worth of the individual? |
My sense of my own moral worth and sanctity tells me to oppose everything where state would handle me like a cow in a box on a farm, with milking machinery strapped to my tits. |
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sugar
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | Why not just put everybody in little cages with food pellet dispensers, water drip bottles, and a constantly-moving conveyor belt below that carries away the shit that drops through the cage floor?
Why don't you just admit that you're a Communist? You're trying to come up with an alternative that is acceptably libertarian, but you can't even come up with something that makes an iota of sense, because at heart your Communist thinking just takes over. |
is it too much to preserve the sanctity and moral worth of the individual? |
My sense of my own moral worth and sanctity tells me to oppose everything where state would handle me like a cow in a box on a farm, with milking machinery strapped to my tits. |
In Earnianism, the only intervention by the 'state' is to ensure that only YOU benefit from being milked like a cow.
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | My sense of my own moral worth and sanctity tells me to oppose everything where state would handle me like a cow in a box on a farm, with milking machinery strapped to my tits. |
The vast majority of people are already chained to parlour stalls, they've just been indoctrinated into believing their stall is Freedom™.
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| drizek wrote: | | Here in America, we are like a bunch of shit-slinging monkeys. |
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Prenj
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | Prenj wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | Why not just put everybody in little cages with food pellet dispensers, water drip bottles, and a constantly-moving conveyor belt below that carries away the shit that drops through the cage floor?
Why don't you just admit that you're a Communist? You're trying to come up with an alternative that is acceptably libertarian, but you can't even come up with something that makes an iota of sense, because at heart your Communist thinking just takes over. |
is it too much to preserve the sanctity and moral worth of the individual? |
My sense of my own moral worth and sanctity tells me to oppose everything where state would handle me like a cow in a box on a farm, with milking machinery strapped to my tits. |
In Earnianism, the only intervention by the 'state' is to ensure that only YOU benefit from being milked like a cow. |
You don't get it. Communists generally don't.
You see I don't want to be milked, period. I can contribute, if it suits my fancy, be it that there is exchange involved, or that I just like someone and do stuff for them. There is a big fucking difference between free will and contribution, and being milked. Everybody who wants to impose system where I am owned by a system is my enemy.
It's not anti-social, because I am very keen on giving to people I chose to give to, but I don't accept the notion that I am obliged to. I can pay taxes, thats fair exchange, because I walk on communal roads and streets, my shit goes into communal sewage system, and I have humanistic notion that there should be health-care, free education, and so on, for the betterment of mankind, and in the end, egoistically speaking, it benefits me more then civil war. But I am not owned by anyone, nor milked by anyone. I can exchange a portion of my time for an income, but I negotiate really hard. |
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Muso
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | Everybody who wants to impose system where I am owned by a system is my enemy. |
I love you Prenj, and I want to have your babies 
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drizek
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | It's not anti-social, because I am very keen on giving to people I chose to give to, but I don't accept the notion that I am obliged to. |
It's not about being obliged, it's about doing things properly and efficiently.
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sugar
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | You don't get it. Communists generally don't.
You see I don't want to be milked, period. I can contribute, if it suits my fancy, be it that there is exchange involved, or that I just like someone and do stuff for them. There is a big fucking difference between free will and contribution, and being milked. Everybody who wants to impose system where I am owned by a system is my enemy. |
in Earnianism, there can ONLY be free EXCHANGE.
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sugar
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | Why not just put everybody in little cages with food pellet dispensers, water drip bottles, and a constantly-moving conveyor belt below that carries away the shit that drops through the cage floor?
Why don't you just admit that you're a Communist? You're trying to come up with an alternative that is acceptably libertarian, but you can't even come up with something that makes an iota of sense, because at heart your Communist thinking just takes over. |
| Ayn Rand wrote: | | “My philosophy in essence is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity and reason as his only absolute” (1085). As an atheist and a thoroughgoing laissez-faire capitalist (F, viii),28 she opposed all philosophies and ethical systems based on supernaturalism or collectivism. The one opposes and destroys man’s life on earth by calling for self-sacrifice in hope of a non-existent future life; the other opposes and destroys man’s life by demanding his self-immolation for the sake of an ethereal entity called society. |
we shall be noble. Only those that are productive shall be rewarded. The will be no self-sacrifice for the collective.
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A call for full employment is a call for war!
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:02 am Post subject: |
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I'll write more soon (recovering from a tough weekend) but can I just say Ayn Rand has no place in Earnianism, at least as I see it. In a library, her vile scribbling wouldn't even be allowed in the same room as serious philosophy. You see the other books would get all agitated and angry, and eventually tear The Turniphead and Halfwit Shrugged to pieces in a wild frenzy of confetti. It would take weeks to calm them down again. Randy An needs to have her own dedicated book-dungeon so her special brand of stupid can't infect vulnerable (ie other stupid) people.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | Prenj wrote: | You don't get it. Communists generally don't.
You see I don't want to be milked, period. I can contribute, if it suits my fancy, be it that there is exchange involved, or that I just like someone and do stuff for them. There is a big fucking difference between free will and contribution, and being milked. Everybody who wants to impose system where I am owned by a system is my enemy. |
in Earnianism, there can ONLY be free EXCHANGE. |
You sound like Kim Il Sung talking about Juche.
Also, the word you were looking for (in your post above) is "noble", not "nobel". If it's the "Nobel Prize" that's got you confused, that's named after Alfred Nobel (the inventor of dynamite), and is pronounced "no-bell".
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Prenj
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | Prenj wrote: | You don't get it. Communists generally don't.
You see I don't want to be milked, period. I can contribute, if it suits my fancy, be it that there is exchange involved, or that I just like someone and do stuff for them. There is a big fucking difference between free will and contribution, and being milked. Everybody who wants to impose system where I am owned by a system is my enemy. |
in Earnianism, there can ONLY be free EXCHANGE. |
No. That is an oxymoron. Free exhange is agent A negotiating with agent B, no rules except what they agree on.
Earnianism or your concept of "there can be ONLY free EXCHANGE" implies governing body that will see that the exchange is as "free" as defined by earnianism. Which is communism mixed with Entitlementism.
You obviously never worked in sales and never haggled. There are several ways that you can do a deal:
win-lose = (most prevailent form today, since society teaches us that there are winners and losers). Bad cos you have to screw the other guy to win.
lose-win = other side of the above, its when you are powerless and the tables are turned. See paying taxes.
win-win = Aaaaaah. The mythical win-win scenario, so revered. Except it is actually win-lose with deception mixed in.
lose-lose = See compromise. Or being pigheaded. Or just plain destructive, like Balkan Wars.
win-win-or-no-deal. Now this is the only true form where both A and B get more then they started from. It can have multiplicative effect if both A and B are creative.
Now, how come a citizen can never negotiate win-win-or-no-deal with state? In any country, at any time in history? Because he has no power to ensure the "no-deal" end of the bargain. There will be tax collectors barging through the door, cops throwing you out, or the newest ones, you get to be labeled terrorist and thrown into dungeon.
Your Earnianism just sounds like "I feel entitled". Learn to negotiate, and learn to recognize power agents (state) that are not playing by same rules. |
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sugar
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | Prenj wrote: | You don't get it. Communists generally don't.
You see I don't want to be milked, period. I can contribute, if it suits my fancy, be it that there is exchange involved, or that I just like someone and do stuff for them. There is a big fucking difference between free will and contribution, and being milked. Everybody who wants to impose system where I am owned by a system is my enemy. |
in Earnianism, there can ONLY be free EXCHANGE. |
No. That is an oxymoron. Free exhange is agent A negotiating with agent B, no rules except what they agree on.
Earnianism or your concept of "there can be ONLY free EXCHANGE" implies governing body that will see that the exchange is as "free" as defined by earnianism. Which is communism mixed with Entitlementism. |
It couldn't be further from Entitlementism. In fact, the concept of Earnianism is the opposite of Entitlementism, as no-one is entitled to anything, unless they work* for it. There is only one rule, however.
| Quote: | | If it is not earned, then it is not deserved. |
No one is entitled to anything without earning the right though work.
*I've defined 'work' as any contribution towards the inputs of the production of goods and services. Contribution capital is an input, and so people should be rewarded, as it is deserved.
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Prenj
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | It couldn't be further from Entitlementism. In fact, the concept of Earnianism is the opposite of Entitlementism, as no-one is entitled to anything, unless they work* for it. There is only one rule, however.
| Quote: | | If it is not earned, then it is not deserved. |
No one is entitled to anything without earning the right though work.
*I've defined 'work' as any contribution towards the inputs of the production of goods and services. Contribution capital is an input, and so people should be rewarded, as it is deserved. |
Yeah but you are still stuck in binary mindset where you assume that some people "work" and that some "don't".
In reality, everybody involved in a project feels that they worked their asses off, while other guys just worked a little bit. It is subjective, and ego tells us that we are right. Then we feel entitled to things. You cannot construct a society which doesnt take into consideration basic aspects of human psyche (see marxism and why it fails), nor can you change human psyche to fit into society (you end up with gutless people branded as "normal", and normal people branded as "immoral" (see any totalitarian regime).
Who is gonna police your society and check who earned and who didn't? And who is gonna police the police, because they are people too, and subjective to flattery, bribe, discrimination, prejudice etc etc.
Last edited by Prenj on Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Muso
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Sugar is the Wesley Mouch of the 21st century.... I take that back, President Obama is the Wesley Mouch of the 21st century.
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