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sugar
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 Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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So, in another thread, the crime dog thought assumed there was a concept called Earnianism, so I googled it, and NO matches were found. There ARE matches now, and these results point to OTW.
Earnian is a word in of itself. It's old english verb, and it means 'to earn' or 'to deserve'.
The broad concept of Earnianism is that those that do the work deserve to earn. It is somewhat an adjustment of capitalism, where capital owners earn the income. When those that earn money from capital are sufficiently removed from those that do the work, then it is considered anti-earnianism (e.g. trust fund dependants have not earned the capital, so should not earn the income from it).
I would like OTW's help in fleshing out this concept, and them somehow trying to make it into a legitimate concept of itself.
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richk449
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| sugar wrote: | | The broad concept of Earnianism is that those that do the work deserve to earn. It is somewhat an adjustment of capitalism, where capital owners earn the income. |
Who decides who is "deserving"? If the market decides, then this is just a form of capitalism. If a council of elders decides, then this is just a form of dictatorship.
All government/economic systems distribute wealth according to some principles. Almost invariably, the idea that those who work should be rewarded for their work. This is true all the way from communism through laissez faire liberalism. The important question is how the determination is made. Under capitalism, market forces make the determination. Under communism and other command economies, the government makes the determination.
So you argue that under capitalism, those with capital also get rewarded, even if they don't work. True. You can try to counteract this through various taxes and regulations - for instance, a large inheritance tax. But there are a couple of problems with this:
(1) Every step you take upsets the free market, so you can only go so far before you have destroyed the means of wealth distribution.
(2) Having capital gives you power, and it takes power to write laws, so the laws tend to reflect the wishes of those with capital.
The moral is that we will never have a perfect economic system that rewards work. Economics and government are intertwined, and the best we can hope for is to muddle though and retain enough incentive to work that we don't destroy ourselves. |
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Prenj
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Those who "do the job" usually have no clue what job needs to be done before someone tells them. Also, they start bickering about "who done more". Also who is gonna finance everything until the job is done and can pay for itself?
Just few points. |
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sugar
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | Those who "do the job" usually have no clue what job needs to be done before someone tells them. Also, they start bickering about "who done more". Also who is gonna finance everything until the job is done and can pay for itself?
Just few points. |
I'm trying to get away from the management vs workers side of things.
All business need various inputs. Workers, raw materials, capital etc. If you contribute an input, then you earn and deserve, fairly, the output.
So, if you worked hard and earned your capital so you could invest it in other things, then fine. If you we're just given the capital, then why should you expect to deserve such an output?
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sugar
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| richk449 wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | The broad concept of Earnianism is that those that do the work deserve to earn. It is somewhat an adjustment of capitalism, where capital owners earn the income. |
Who decides who is "deserving"? If the market decides, then this is just a form of capitalism. If a council of elders decides, then this is just a form of dictatorship.
All government/economic systems distribute wealth according to some principles. Almost invariably, the idea that those who work should be rewarded for their work. This is true all the way from communism through laissez faire liberalism. The important question is how the determination is made. Under capitalism, market forces make the determination. Under communism and other command economies, the government makes the determination.
So you argue that under capitalism, those with capital also get rewarded, even if they don't work. True. You can try to counteract this through various taxes and regulations - for instance, a large inheritance tax. But there are a couple of problems with this:
(1) Every step you take upsets the free market, so you can only go so far before you have destroyed the means of wealth distribution.
(2) Having capital gives you power, and it takes power to write laws, so the laws tend to reflect the wishes of those with capital.
The moral is that we will never have a perfect economic system that rewards work. Economics and government are intertwined, and the best we can hope for is to muddle though and retain enough incentive to work that we don't destroy ourselves. |
maybe we should move away from determining who 'deserves' something, to maybe just determining who's earned it?
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tylerwylie
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ugh
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Muso
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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All the effort put into finding ways of stealing other people's money.
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sugar
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not looking for whether you agree or disagree with it.
You're not doing it right.
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sugar
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: |
All the effort put into finding ways of stealing other people's money. |
Thank god someone thinking of the trust fund babies that don't do anything constructive for society.
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richk449
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| sugar wrote: | | maybe we should move away from determining who 'deserves' something, to maybe just determining who's earned it? |
Can you explain, in a practical sense, what the difference is? |
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cach0rr0
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I remember being college aged once. |
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sugar
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| richk449 wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | maybe we should move away from determining who 'deserves' something, to maybe just determining who's earned it? |
Can you explain, in a practical sense, what the difference is? |
in socialism, those that deserve income are determined by need, but they are not necessarily those who earned it.
in the free market, those that are able to compete best deserve the rewards, but they do not necessarily earn it. (People who are able to live off of an inheritance have not earned it, yet are easily able to reap the rewards of being a capital owner.)
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richk449
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| cach0rr0 wrote: | | I remember being college aged once. |
If you remember it, you wern't doing it right. |
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Let's say I'm wealthy, and I die. In a pro-earnianist situation, what should happen? You're estate can sell your assets, leaving a mountain of cash. The state can't seize your assets, because they have not earned it.
So, well, why not just destroy the wealth? Why not just make a big mountain and burn the money.
In practical terms,
what's to stop someone from just spending their money before they die? Well, nothing. The earnianist have no problem with this, as they are entitled to spend what they earn.
What's to stop someone from gifting the money before they die? The gifting of money will be strongly prohibited by law.
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richk449
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:05 am Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| sugar wrote: | | richk449 wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | maybe we should move away from determining who 'deserves' something, to maybe just determining who's earned it? |
Can you explain, in a practical sense, what the difference is? |
in socialism, those that deserve income are determined by need, but they are not necessarily those who earned it.
in the free market, those that are able to compete best deserve the rewards, but they do not necessarily earn it. (People who are able to live off of an inheritance have not earned it, yet are easily able to reap the rewards of being a capital owner.) |
I have no idea what that has to do with my question. |
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richk449
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | The gifting of money will be strongly prohibited by law. |
Great plan. I can't see how anyone could possibly get around that. |
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:11 am Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| richk449 wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | richk449 wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | maybe we should move away from determining who 'deserves' something, to maybe just determining who's earned it? |
Can you explain, in a practical sense, what the difference is? |
in socialism, those that deserve income are determined by need, but they are not necessarily those who earned it.
in the free market, those that are able to compete best deserve the rewards, but they do not necessarily earn it. (People who are able to live off of an inheritance have not earned it, yet are easily able to reap the rewards of being a capital owner.) |
I have no idea what that has to do with my question. |
I have bolded the important parts. I'm comparing the difference between earn and deserve.
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| richk449 wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | The gifting of money will be strongly prohibited by law. |
Great plan. I can't see how anyone could possibly get around that. |
Yeah, totally lol. Well, the theory doesn't need to be totally water tight. lols.
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tylerwylie
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:30 am Post subject: |
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Initiating violence against people involved in a voluntary transaction is bad, mmkay.
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| tylerwylie wrote: | | Initiating violence against people involved in a voluntary transaction is bad, mmkay. |
what if they are already dead?
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drizek
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:48 am Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| sugar wrote: | So, in another thread, the crime dog thought assumed there was a concept called Earnianism, so I googled it, and NO matches were found. There ARE matches now, and these results point to OTW.
Earnian is a word in of itself. It's old english verb, and it means 'to earn' or 'to deserve'.
The broad concept of Earnianism is that those that do the work deserve to earn. It is somewhat an adjustment of capitalism, where capital owners earn the income. When those that earn money from capital are sufficiently removed from those that do the work, then it is considered anti-earnianism (e.g. trust fund dependants have not earned the capital, so should not earn the income from it).
I would like OTW's help in fleshing out this concept, and them somehow trying to make it into a legitimate concept of itself. |
Nobody has bothered to call it that before, but it isnt an entirely original concept. It doesn't really make sense, either. It breaks down relatively quickly.
Lets do a car analogy, who should get credit for building the world's fastest car? The guy who designed it? The guys who built it? Or the guy who drove it?
And what is your problem with a trust fund? At one point is it no longer acceptable for parents to help their kids? You've been getting fat off your parent's since the day you were conceived". Should we just throw zygotes in a test tube and see if they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps? Or should we put them in an artificial placenta and then unilaterally loan them the money to pay to rent it? That way, their negative net worth will reflect the fact that children are a bunch of undeserving bloodsuckers on society.
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Old School
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:00 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure that sugar would agree that those that risk their own capital by expansion and hiring new workers deserve the bigger slice.
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Old School
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| sugar wrote: | | tylerwylie wrote: | | Initiating violence against people involved in a voluntary transaction is bad, mmkay. |
what if they are already dead? |
Then your fascist state can claim it is an act of god and steal the money anyway.
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:05 am Post subject: Re: [Earnianism] A new OTW economic/political concept |
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| drizek wrote: | Nobody has bothered to call it that before, but it isnt an entirely original concept. It doesn't really make sense, either. It breaks down relatively quickly.
Lets do a car analogy, who should get credit for building the world's fastest car? The guy who designed it? The guys who built it? Or the guy who drove it?
And what is your problem with a trust fund? At one point is it no longer acceptable for parents to help their kids? You've been getting fat off your parent's since the day you were conceived". Should we just throw zygotes in a test tube and see if they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps? Or should we put them in an artificial placenta and then unilaterally loan them the money to pay to rent it? That way, their negative net worth will reflect the fact that children are a bunch of undeserving bloodsuckers on society. |
a. well, everyone who contributed input into construction of the car should receive the benefits of it's production.
b. I'm not sure what should happen to the parent/child relationship. We could just claim that any assistance given to a child is non-earnianist, and them leave it at that. Or you could go the socialist route, and say that all children will only receive state sponsored education and a basic level of healthcare/nutrition etc. Or, I suppose, you could just go the market route, and say that while gifting is banned, parents (or other providers) should be able to invest in children as they see fit (with education/clothes/food etc), with loans paid back with interest, once the child becomes of productive age. Sure, it's dodgey territory making new borns agree to a contract, but I'm sure the market can find some way around it.
It's almost becoming an extreme of individualism. Even the collectiveness of the family unit is discouraged. What better way to stress 'the independence and self-reliance' of an individual than to take away all benefits that are not earned, because they are not deserved.
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Old School wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | tylerwylie wrote: | | Initiating violence against people involved in a voluntary transaction is bad, mmkay. |
what if they are already dead? |
Then your fascist state can claim it is an act of god and steal the money anyway. |
the state cannot steal the money because it has not earned it, in my Earnian utopia anyway.
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