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rbergen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:33 pm    Post subject: [SOLVED] X won't start (No devices detected) Reply with quote

I'm running into a problem that's giving me grey hairs, which I then end up pulling out due to sheer frustration.

I can't seem to get X to run on my installed Gentoo system with an Nvidia GeForce 6800 AGP graphics controller, while it does run on the Gentoo Install LiveDVD and SystemRescueCd (using the nouveau and nv drivers, respectively). I've tried the proprietary nvidia driver, nouveau and vesa, all of which yield the same message in the Xorg.0.log file: (EE) No devices detected. I'm sure I've included all the drivers for my system in the kernel, particularly those releted to graphics support.

The output of lspci is as follows:
Quote:

00:00.0 Host bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. K8M800 Host Bridge
00:00.1 Host bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. K8M800 Host Bridge
00:00.2 Host bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. K8M800 Host Bridge
00:00.3 Host bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. K8M800 Host Bridge
00:00.4 Host bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. K8M800 Host Bridge
00:00.7 Host bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. K8M800 Host Bridge
00:01.0 PCI bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT8237 PCI bridge [K8T800/K8T890 South]
00:0f.0 IDE interface: VIA Technologies, Inc. VIA VT6420 SATA RAID Controller (rev 80)
00:0f.1 IDE interface: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82C586A/B/VT82C686/A/B/VT823x/A/C PIPC Bus Master IDE (rev 06)
00:10.0 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81)
00:10.1 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81)
00:10.2 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81)
00:10.3 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (rev 81)
00:10.4 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. USB 2.0 (rev 86)
00:11.0 ISA bridge: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT8237 ISA bridge [KT600/K8T800/K8T890 South]
00:11.5 Multimedia audio controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT8233/A/8235/8237 AC97 Audio Controller (rev 60)
00:12.0 Ethernet controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT6102 [Rhine-II] (rev 78)
00:18.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K8 [Athlon64/Opteron] HyperTransport Technology Configuration
00:18.1 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K8 [Athlon64/Opteron] Address Map
00:18.2 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K8 [Athlon64/Opteron] DRAM Controller
00:18.3 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K8 [Athlon64/Opteron] Miscellaneous Control
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV40 [GeForce 6800] (rev a1)


The Xorg.0.log file, with no xorg.conf present, looks as follows:
Quote:

[ 24638.665]
X.Org X Server 1.9.5
Release Date: 2011-03-17
[ 24638.665] X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0
[ 24638.665] Build Operating System: Linux 2.6.37-gentoo-r2 x86_64 Gentoo
[ 24638.665] Current Operating System: Linux histon 2.6.38-gentoo-r6 #8 SMP Sat Jun 4 16:42:42 CEST 2011 x86_64
[ 24638.665] Kernel command line: root=/dev/sda3
[ 24638.665] Build Date: 02 June 2011 09:22:05PM
[ 24638.665]
[ 24638.665] Current version of pixman: 0.20.2
[ 24638.665] Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org
to make sure that you have the latest version.
[ 24638.665] Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
(++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
(WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
[ 24638.665] (==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Sun Jun 5 00:55:07 2011
[ 24638.675] (==) Using system config directory "/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d"
[ 24638.675] (==) No Layout section. Using the first Screen section.
[ 24638.675] (==) No screen section available. Using defaults.
[ 24638.675] (**) |-->Screen "Default Screen Section" (0)
[ 24638.675] (**) | |-->Monitor "<default monitor>"
[ 24638.675] (==) No monitor specified for screen "Default Screen Section".
Using a default monitor configuration.
[ 24638.675] (==) Automatically adding devices
[ 24638.675] (==) Automatically enabling devices
[ 24638.675] (==) FontPath set to:
/usr/share/fonts/misc/,
/usr/share/fonts/TTF/,
/usr/share/fonts/OTF/,
/usr/share/fonts/Type1/,
/usr/share/fonts/100dpi/,
/usr/share/fonts/75dpi/
[ 24638.675] (==) ModulePath set to "/usr/lib64/xorg/modules"
[ 24638.675] (II) The server relies on udev to provide the list of input devices.
If no devices become available, reconfigure udev or disable AutoAddDevices.
[ 24638.675] (II) Loader magic: 0x7c7140
[ 24638.675] (II) Module ABI versions:
[ 24638.675] X.Org ANSI C Emulation: 0.4
[ 24638.675] X.Org Video Driver: 8.0
[ 24638.675] X.Org XInput driver : 11.0
[ 24638.675] X.Org Server Extension : 4.0
[ 24638.676] (II) Open ACPI successful (/var/run/acpid.socket)
[ 24638.676] (II) LoadModule: "extmod"
[ 24638.676] (II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/extensions/libextmod.so
[ 24638.677] (II) Module extmod: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 24638.677] compiled for 1.9.5, module version = 1.0.0
[ 24638.677] Module class: X.Org Server Extension
[ 24638.677] ABI class: X.Org Server Extension, version 4.0
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading extension MIT-SCREEN-SAVER
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading extension XFree86-VidModeExtension
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading extension XFree86-DGA
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading extension DPMS
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading extension XVideo
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading extension XVideo-MotionCompensation
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading extension X-Resource
[ 24638.677] (II) LoadModule: "dbe"
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/extensions/libdbe.so
[ 24638.677] (II) Module dbe: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 24638.677] compiled for 1.9.5, module version = 1.0.0
[ 24638.677] Module class: X.Org Server Extension
[ 24638.677] ABI class: X.Org Server Extension, version 4.0
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading extension DOUBLE-BUFFER
[ 24638.677] (II) LoadModule: "glx"
[ 24638.677] (II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/extensions/libglx.so
[ 24638.678] (II) Module glx: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 24638.678] compiled for 1.9.5, module version = 1.0.0
[ 24638.678] ABI class: X.Org Server Extension, version 4.0
[ 24638.678] (==) AIGLX enabled
[ 24638.678] (II) Loading extension GLX
[ 24638.678] (II) LoadModule: "record"
[ 24638.678] (II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/extensions/librecord.so
[ 24638.678] (II) Module record: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 24638.678] compiled for 1.9.5, module version = 1.13.0
[ 24638.678] Module class: X.Org Server Extension
[ 24638.678] ABI class: X.Org Server Extension, version 4.0
[ 24638.678] (II) Loading extension RECORD
[ 24638.678] (II) LoadModule: "dri"
[ 24638.678] (II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/extensions/libdri.so
[ 24638.679] (II) Module dri: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 24638.679] compiled for 1.9.5, module version = 1.0.0
[ 24638.679] ABI class: X.Org Server Extension, version 4.0
[ 24638.679] (II) Loading extension XFree86-DRI
[ 24638.679] (II) LoadModule: "dri2"
[ 24638.679] (II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/extensions/libdri2.so
[ 24638.679] (II) Module dri2: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 24638.679] compiled for 1.9.5, module version = 1.2.0
[ 24638.679] ABI class: X.Org Server Extension, version 4.0
[ 24638.679] (II) Loading extension DRI2
[ 24638.679] Primary device is not PCI
[ 24638.679] (==) Matched vesa as autoconfigured driver 0
[ 24638.679] (==) Matched fbdev as autoconfigured driver 1
[ 24638.679] (==) Assigned the driver to the xf86ConfigLayout
[ 24638.679] (II) LoadModule: "vesa"
[ 24638.679] (II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/drivers/vesa_drv.so
[ 24638.694] (II) Module vesa: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
[ 24638.694] compiled for 1.9.5, module version = 2.3.0
[ 24638.694] Module class: X.Org Video Driver
[ 24638.694] ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 8.0
[ 24638.694] (II) LoadModule: "fbdev"
[ 24638.695] (WW) Warning, couldn't open module fbdev
[ 24638.695] (II) UnloadModule: "fbdev"
[ 24638.695] (EE) Failed to load module "fbdev" (module does not exist, 0)
[ 24638.695] (II) VESA: driver for VESA chipsets: vesa
[ 24638.695] (--) using VT number 7

[ 24638.698] (WW) Falling back to old probe method for vesa
[ 24638.698] (EE) No devices detected.
[ 24638.698]
Fatal server error:
[ 24638.698] no screens found
[ 24638.698]
Please consult the The X.Org Foundation support
at http://wiki.x.org
for help.
[ 24638.698] Please also check the log file at "/var/log/Xorg.0.log" for additional information.
[ 24638.698]


I must be missing something that's staring me in the face, but I can't determine what it is. All help is greatly appreciated.


Last edited by rbergen on Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what does "lspci -k |grep -A4 VGA" return?

also what does
Code:
grep -iE "nvidia|NVRM" /var/log/messages
return
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rbergen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, thanks for responding.

lspci -k | grep -A4 VGA yields:
Quote:

01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV40 [GeForce 6800] (rev a1)
Subsystem: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. V9999 Gamer Edition
Kernel modules: nvidia


grep -iE "nvidia|NVRM" /var/log/messages yields the following:
Quote:

Jun 3 15:03:23 histon kernel: [ 996.000087] nvidia: module license 'NVIDIA' taints kernel.
Jun 3 15:03:24 histon kernel: [ 997.231800] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
Jun 3 15:03:24 histon kernel: [ 997.232625] NVRM: loading NVIDIA UNIX x86_64 Kernel Module 270.41.06 Mon Apr 18 14:53:56 PDT 2011
Jun 3 15:22:27 histon kernel: [ 35.001737] nvidia: module license 'NVIDIA' taints kernel.
Jun 3 15:22:29 histon kernel: [ 36.233939] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
Jun 3 15:22:29 histon kernel: [ 36.234737] NVRM: loading NVIDIA UNIX x86_64 Kernel Module 270.41.06 Mon Apr 18 14:53:56 PDT 2011
Jun 3 15:26:30 histon kernel: [ 277.563212] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A disabled
Jun 3 15:43:23 histon kernel: [ 776.730372] nvidia: module license 'NVIDIA' taints kernel.
Jun 3 15:43:24 histon kernel: [ 777.961692] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
Jun 3 15:43:24 histon kernel: [ 777.962513] NVRM: loading NVIDIA UNIX x86_64 Kernel Module 270.41.06 Mon Apr 18 14:53:56 PDT 2011
Jun 3 15:43:39 histon kernel: [ 792.927002] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A disabled
Jun 3 15:44:12 histon kernel: [ 825.533061] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
Jun 3 15:44:12 histon kernel: [ 825.533573] NVRM: loading NVIDIA UNIX x86_64 Kernel Module 270.41.06 Mon Apr 18 14:53:56 PDT 2011
Jun 3 15:44:39 histon kernel: [ 852.761965] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A disabled
Jun 3 15:44:56 histon kernel: [ 870.309847] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
Jun 3 15:44:56 histon kernel: [ 870.310680] NVRM: loading NVIDIA UNIX x86_64 Kernel Module 270.41.06 Mon Apr 18 14:53:56 PDT 2011
Jun 4 03:16:55 histon kernel: [ 1066.705989] nvidia: module license 'NVIDIA' taints kernel.
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937418] NVRM: The NVIDIA probe routine was not called for 1 device(s).
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937424] NVRM: This can occur when a driver such as nouveau, rivafb,
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937426] NVRM: nvidiafb, or rivatv was loaded and obtained ownership of
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937428] NVRM: the NVIDIA device(s).
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937432] NVRM: Try unloading the conflicting kernel module (and/or
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937434] NVRM: reconfigure your kernel without the conflicting
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937435] NVRM: driver(s)), then try loading the NVIDIA kernel module
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937437] NVRM: again.
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937439] NVRM: No NVIDIA graphics adapter probed!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rbergen wrote:

Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937418] NVRM: The NVIDIA probe routine was not called for 1 device(s).
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937424] NVRM: This can occur when a driver such as nouveau, rivafb,
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937426] NVRM: nvidiafb, or rivatv was loaded and obtained ownership of
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937428] NVRM: the NVIDIA device(s).
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937432] NVRM: Try unloading the conflicting kernel module (and/or
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937434] NVRM: reconfigure your kernel without the conflicting
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937435] NVRM: driver(s)), then try loading the NVIDIA kernel module
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937437] NVRM: again.
Jun 4 03:16:56 histon kernel: [ 1067.937439] NVRM: No NVIDIA graphics adapter probed!


You probably have the nouveau driver being loaded before nvidia can get there.

add
Code:
blacklist nouveau

to /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf
and reboot

I'm assuming that you don't have other framebuffers built in, the only ones that play nice with nvidia are vesafb and uvesafb.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I only installed nouveau after I found the nvidia driver didn't work. to see if the issue was driver-specific (which it isn't, because I can't even get the VESA driver to work.) Anyway, I've just built a new kernel without nouveau and rebooted, which gives me the exact same result when I start X (no devices detected).

And no, I am not loading any other fb drivers at this time.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are still getting the NVRM messages about drivers, then you have something set wrong

what does
Code:
grep -E "FB|DRM|FRAMEB" /usr/src/linux/.config |grep -v "^#"
return
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I no longer get the NVRM messages about drivers. Instead, I get completely different NVRM messages now, which are even more puzzling:

Jun 5 15:40:46 histon kernel: [ 89.412833] nvidia: module license 'NVIDIA' taints kernel.
Jun 5 15:40:46 histon kernel: [ 89.412840] Disabling lock debugging due to kernel taint
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646290] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646299] NVRM: This PCI I/O region assigned to your NVIDIA device is invalid:
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646300] NVRM: BAR1 is 3584M @ 0x0 (PCI:0000:01:00.0)
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646304] NVRM: The system BIOS may have misconfigured your GPU.
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646323] nvidia: probe of 0000:01:00.0 failed with error -1
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.647464] NVRM: The NVIDIA probe routine failed for 1 device(s).
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.647468] NVRM: None of the NVIDIA graphics adapters were initialized!

Although I don't quite understand what the message means, I have a gut feeling that the first thing to do is see if I can find a BIOS update for my motherboard. Which is great, because MSI only supports BIOS updates using a Windows tool, which means I'll have to install Windows on a system I very much only wanted to run Linux on just to try to get Linux to work properly...

If anybody knows anything else I can try that may make that I don't have to go down that wrongful path, I would be very grateful indeed...

Just to be complete, to answer Anon-E-moose's question regarding the output of grep -E "FB|DRM|FRAMEB" /usr/src/linux/.config |grep -v "^#", it is as follows:
CONFIG_DRM=y
CONFIG_FB=y
CONFIG_FRAMEBUFFER_CONSOLE=y
CONFIG_FRAMEBUFFER_CONSOLE_DETECT_PRIMARY=y
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rbergen wrote:
Actually, I no longer get the NVRM messages about drivers. Instead, I get completely different NVRM messages now, which are even more puzzling:

Jun 5 15:40:46 histon kernel: [ 89.412833] nvidia: module license 'NVIDIA' taints kernel.
Jun 5 15:40:46 histon kernel: [ 89.412840] Disabling lock debugging due to kernel taint
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646290] nvidia 0000:01:00.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646299] NVRM: This PCI I/O region assigned to your NVIDIA device is invalid:
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646300] NVRM: BAR1 is 3584M @ 0x0 (PCI:0000:01:00.0)
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646304] NVRM: The system BIOS may have misconfigured your GPU.
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.646323] nvidia: probe of 0000:01:00.0 failed with error -1
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.647464] NVRM: The NVIDIA probe routine failed for 1 device(s).
Jun 5 15:40:47 histon kernel: [ 90.647468] NVRM: None of the NVIDIA graphics adapters were initialized!

Although I don't quite understand what the message means, I have a gut feeling that the first thing to do is see if I can find a BIOS update for my motherboard. Which is great, because MSI only supports BIOS updates using a Windows tool, which means I'll have to install Windows on a system I very much only wanted to run Linux on just to try to get Linux to work properly...

If anybody knows anything else I can try that may make that I don't have to go down that wrongful path, I would be very grateful indeed...

Just to be complete, to answer Anon-E-moose's question regarding the output of grep -E "FB|DRM|FRAMEB" /usr/src/linux/.config |grep -v "^#", it is as follows:
CONFIG_DRM=y
CONFIG_FB=y
CONFIG_FRAMEBUFFER_CONSOLE=y
CONFIG_FRAMEBUFFER_CONSOLE_DETECT_PRIMARY=y


I have an MSI board and it updated the bios from a usb stick, from the bios itself, didn't need windows, it even let me save the old bios (just in case)

A quick google of one of the messages, gave me this page
http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1013589.html
There are some hints for setting things in the bios, might be worth looking into

and this one http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-732416-start-0.html
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After spending what boils down to another day on this, I'm about ready to throw in the towel. After much hassle I've been able to update the motherboard BIOS to the latest version that I could find (which really was no small feat, because MSI's support for this old, not to say ancient, K8MM3-V motherboard is basically absent). I've gone through the BIOS to find the settings that are mentioned on the various pages that discuss the NVRM messages I was getting, only to find they don't exist in my BIOS, and other solutions that were offered don't apply because the system in question only has 2GB of RAM. I ended up even replacing the video card with another (older) NVIDIA model, which means I had to downgrade the drivers to 96.43.x.
The end result of all this: zilch, in the sense that X still won't start, and with the new (that is, old) video card there are no clues to be found in /var/log/messages why not.

I'm not a big believer in fate, but I am starting to think that me running a graphical UI on my Gentoo installation on that particular system is just not meant to be. Which is a frustrating conclusion, particularly because graphics do seem to work with everything else; or certainly with SystemRescueCd, the Gentoo LiveDVD and (shudder) Windows XP.

Of course, I still DO strongly hope to be proven wrong by someone who reads this...
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keet
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm wondering a few things that might be relevant:

1. What does 'grep VIDEO_CARDS /etc/make.conf' reveal?
2. Which version of the NVidia drivers are you using?
3. Your card is AGP, but I don't see anything about an AGP controller in lspci. Maybe you should try following Pappy's Kernel Seed guide, or at least making sure that the things you get from "lspci -n" are enabled in your kernel configuration per http://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/ .

I hope that this helps.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stab in the dark, but check if udev is in correct runlevel.
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<3
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a lot of people are reporting this problem. It seems that the gentoo handbook has no mention of adding udev to the proper runlevel.

Code:
# rc-update add udev sysinit
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rbergen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VoidMage and <3, I'm afraid I'm going to have to marry both of you and have your babies, because as it turns out that's exactly what the problem was. Added udev to sysinit runlevel, rebooted, et voila: X works...

The stupid thing is that I knew I needed udev in that runlevel, but obviously plainly forgot to add it on this particular system (which was the third in a row that I installed Gentoo on, in a period of just a few days). I guess the fact it is not mentioned anywhere in the handbook doesn't really help.

Anyway, thanks a lot for this reminder, as I can now finally use this particular box to its proper potential.
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diablo465
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 10 Sep 2013
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to throw in the towel on this prblem as well
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