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dmitchell
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 Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: Israeli orchestra breaks boycott to perform at Bayreuth |
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| Quote: | Israeli orchestra breaks boycott to perform at 2011 Bayreuth Festival
In Israel, there is an unspoken ban on performing the works of anti-Semitic composer Richard Wagner. The announcement that an Israeli orchestra will perform at the Wagner Festival in Bayreuth has caused a stir at home.
The Israel Chamber Orchestra is set to become the country's first ensemble to perform at the annual Bayreuth Festival, a month-long event showcasing the operas of Richard Wagner.
The decision, announced Tuesday, goes against a long-time tradition in Israel of not performing works by Wagner, who was a vocal anti-Semite and whose writings later influenced Adolf Hitler.
"The decision was not to break a taboo," Erella Talmi, chairwoman of the orchestra's board of directors, told Israeli Defense Forces Radio on Tuesday. "The decision was to accept an invitation that showed a new openness."
Katharina Wagner, co-director of the festival and great-granddaughter of the composer, had extended the invitation to the Israel Chamber Orchestra in an effort to stir up what has for decades been an elitist event. |
| Quote: | The unspoken ban on Wagner's music dates back to 1938, when violence against Jews increased in Nazi Germany, the Palestine Orchestra - now known as the Israel Philharmonic - rejected the composer's works in protest.
Since then, attempts by prominent musicians to breach the boycott have triggered criticism and public debate. Argentinean-born Israeli conductor Daniel Barenboim, for example, performed part of Wagner's opera "Tristan and Isolde" in 2001, prompting several angered audience members to walk out. |
| Quote: | Israeli journalist and Holocaust survivor Noah Klieger told Deutsche Welle that he was opposed to the orchestra's plans because of Wagner's unequivocal anti-Semitism.
"Wagner was the first to explain in writing that there was a master race - the Germans - and a low-class race - the Jews," Klieger said.
"We don't need reconciliation with Wagner - we have reconciliation with Germany," he added. "We have nothing against the new German generations. They're not the same Germans, but Wagner is the same Wagner." |
Seems like a good thing. But now this report from Haaretz:
| Quote: | Wagner's great-granddaughter cancels Israel trip week before arrival
Katharina Wagner had been expected to announce that Israel Chamber Orchestra is invited to open annual Wagner festival next July.
The great-granddaughter of composer Richard Wagner, Katharina Wagner, has canceled a visit to Israel next week, fearing criticism in Israel and abroad. Katharina Wagner is the head of the annual Wagner festival in Bayreuth, which was founded by the composer in 1876.
Wagner's work has long been taboo in Israel due to his anti-Semitism and his status as a favorite of Adolf Hitler.
Katharina Wagner's visit to Israel has been kept secret for the past year, and tensions surrounding the trip have been high. Wagner had planned to call a press conference on October 13, during which was to extend an invitation to the Israel Chamber Orchestra to open the Wagner festival next July. She had planned to precede the announcement of the invitation with comments from German Chancellor Angela Merkel in honor of the occasion.
Reports of the visit, however, were leaked in the Israeli press, and soon reached the media in Germany, Austria and around the world. Reactions to the news were mixed: Austrian newspaper Der Standard quoted Israeli journalist and Holocaust survivor Noah Klinger as saying that such a step would be seen as "capitulation" after years of boycotting Wagner's work.
In light of the leaks regarding the invitation, the organizers of the festival held an emergency meeting in Bayreuth on Tuesday night, during which the decision was taken to cancel Wagner's visit to Israel; it seems unlikely that this decision will be reversed, barring a last-minute development. |
Oh dear. I would suggest Katharina go ahead and extend the invitation.
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Muso
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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As long as they don't perform that old lost Operetta by Wagner, Throw the Jew down the Well, I don't see why they can't play some great music.
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Israeli orchestra breaks boycott to perform at Bayreuth |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | Seems like a good thing. |
| Quote: | | "We don't need reconciliation with Wagner - we have reconciliation with Germany," he added. "We have nothing against the new German generations. They're not the same Germans, but Wagner is the same Wagner." |
That seems the key to me. I wouldn't expect black people to go around praising a Klan leader just because they were an artist.
That said, individuals should be free to personally engage in playing / watching Wagner performances.
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Old School
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: | | As long as they don't perform that old lost Operetta by Wagner, Throw the Jew down the Well, I don't see why they can't play some great music. |
And Wagner's comedic opera, "The Covetous Jew."
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Dr.Willy
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh the Drama. |
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kernelOfTruth
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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if they stopped playing the music of componists who said something anti-semitic in their lifes there wouldn't be much left. Certainly nothing made before the 20th century.
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Muso
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | if they stopped playing the music of componists who said something anti-semitic in their lifes there wouldn't be much left. Certainly nothing made before the 20th century. |
Mendelssohn & Alkan
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | if they stopped playing the music of componists who said something anti-semitic in their lifes there wouldn't be much left. Certainly nothing made before the 20th century. |
Mendelssohn & Alkan |
Mendelssohn Bartholdy was a baptized lutheran 
And even jewish artists had bad things to say about jews, so...
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Israeli Group Set to Play in Bayreuth
The Israel Chamber Orchestra plans to play a concert next summer in Bayreuth, Germany, the city most associated with Richard Wagner, whose music is taboo in the Jewish state because of its embrace by Hitler and because of the composer’s noted anti-Semitism.
News reports said the orchestra would open the Bayreuth Festival, the annual celebration of Wagner’s operas in the Festspielhaus, the house he designed. But officials of the festival, town and orchestra said Wednesday that the concert, scheduled for July 26, was unrelated to the festival’s offerings and that it would take place in Bayreuth’s town hall.
“It’s completely independent,” said Björn Junge, the assistant to Katharina Wagner, the festival’s co-director. “It’s organized by the city of Bayreuth. The only link, if you want, is that Katharina Wagner has been asked to be the patron of it.” Ms. Wagner, a great-granddaughter of the composer, leads the festival along with her half sister, Eva Wagner-Pasquier.
The chairwoman of the orchestra’s board, Erella Talmi, said the group would play as guests of the mayor, outside the festival. “This was the original plan and the original invitation,” she added. |
| Quote: | Ms. Wagner planned to travel to Israel next week for a news conference announcing the orchestra concert but canceled the trip once word leaked out, Mr. Junge said. “It was meant to be a big surprise there, but it is not news anymore now,” he said. Ms. Wagner is happy about the concert, he said, adding, “We’re sad it had such a bad start.”
But Ms. Talmi said Ms. Wagner may also have been swayed by criticism of the trip in Israeli news reports. “I did hear that she got cold feet and got a big scare about the situation,” Ms. Talmi said, “and did not want to add to the turbulence that her visit would create.” |
| Quote: | | Ms. Talmi said the program would include “Prayer,” by the Israeli composer Tzvi Avni, and music of two composers condemned by the Nazis: Mendelssohn (a symphony) and Mahler (the Rückert Lieder). The Wagner piece on the program, “Siegfried Idyll,” will not be rehearsed on Israeli soil, she said, and orchestra members who felt uncomfortable with the trip would be excused. None have come forward so far, she said. |
So the Israelis are not performing at the Festival after all. I see that none of the musicians have a problem playing Wagner. There really are two Wagners: there is the monster, known to those who know Wagner only by reputation, and then there is the genius known to those who know his supreme art. These two Wagners could not be further apart.
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Last edited by dmitchell on Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Muso
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | And even jewish artists had bad things to say about jews, so... |
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drizek
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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What I thought was funny was the story about audience members walking out when they heard Wagner being played at one concert.
If they hated Wagner so much... how did they even know what the song was? I'm assuming it wasn't in the directory since if it was they wouldn't have gone to see it in the first place.
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pjp
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | There really are two Wagners: there is the monster, known to those who know Wagner only by reputation, and then there is the genius known to those who know his supreme art. These two Wagners could not be further apart. |
Evil Genius isn't just a movie term.
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| drizek wrote: | What I thought was funny was the story about audience members walking out when they heard Wagner being played at one concert.
If they hated Wagner so much... how did they even know what the song was? I'm assuming it wasn't in the directory since if it was they wouldn't have gone to see it in the first place. |
| Quote: | Barenboim shatters Israel taboo on Wagner
To cries of "fascist", the Jewish conductor Daniel Barenboim broke a long-held taboo in Israel by leading a German orchestra in performing the music of Richard Wagner, Hitler's favourite composer.
Barenboim's action came at the end of a concert featuring the music of Schumann and Stravinsky, as part of Israel's most prestigious arts festival in Jerusalem. He turned to the audience and asked if they wanted to hear a piece by Wagner, which had been dropped from the original programme after protests.
Most responded with loud applause, but an angry minority jumped out of their seats and began protesting with shouts of "fascist" and "go home". One woman screamed "It's a disgrace", while another called out: "It's the music of the concentration camps."
Unperturbed, Barenboim continued his dialogue with the audience in Hebrew, appealing to the protesters to let the majority hear what they wanted. He said: "This is my personal encore to them. You can be angry with me, but please don't be angry with the orchestra or the festival management."
After a heated 30-minute debate, in which protesters were asked by others to leave the hall, Barenboim began conducting the piece. As the orchestra started playing, protesters stormed out, banging doors. At the end of the performance the orchestra was given a standing ovation, leaving Barenboim close to tears.
The conductor, the musical director of the Berlin Staatskapelle, grew up in Israel. Music from the Wagner opera Tristan und Isolde was featured in his original programme, but after protests from Holocaust survivors and pressure from politicians the festival management asked Barenboim not to include it.
Yesterday he said he had decided to defy the protests when a news conference he held last week was interrupted by the ringing of a mobile phone to the tune of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries. He said: "I thought if it can be heard on the ring of a telephone, why can't it be played in a concert hall?"
Wagner's music and anti-Semitic writings are said to have inspired Nazi cultural propaganda, and for more than 50 years there has been an informal ban on the public performance of his works in Israel. In 1981, the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra attempted to play part of Tristan und Isolde as an encore, but a Holocaust survivor jumped on to the stage and showed scars inflicted in a Nazi concentration camp. The Israeli conductor, Zubin Mehta, was forced to stop.
Barenboim's action was criticised by Ehud Olmert, the mayor of Jerusalem. He said: "It's not his job to determine whether the state of Israel decides to allow Wagner to be heard or not."
Ephraim Zuroff, of the Simon Weisenthal Centre, said: "He tried to seduce the Israeli public. The Israeli public refused. He raped us." |
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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the public obviously wanted to hear the music and a vocal, radical minority just can't stomach the facts.
Like always.
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:03 am Post subject: A tradition shattered: Israelis play Wagner in Bayreuth |
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| Quote: | A Tradition Shattered: Israelis play Wagner in Bayreuth
What happened last night in Bayreuth, Germany, was noteworthy. The Israel Chamber Orchestra played the Siegfried Idyll with two of the composer's great-granddaughters sitting in the front row.
Roberto Paternostro is the conductor of the Israel Chamber Orchestra. He says, "I've always loved the music of Richard Wagner, first when I was a student in Vienna at the Vienna music school, and later when I conducted it a lot."
He says that when he became the music director of the Israel Chamber Orchestra in Tel Aviv, he wanted to connect those realities: of living in Israel and having a lot of family in Israel, and on the other hand to perform Wagner's music.
Paternostro continues, "My idea was to ask a friend of mine, Katharina Wagner, who is now in charge of the Bayreuth Festival, if she would be interested in having a concert with us.
The conductor has been described as "a Jew from a family of Holocaust survivors whose grandparents were dispatched to Auschwitz and 80 percent of his family killed." However, some groups of Holocaust survivors think he's committed a kind of sacrilege by performing this music, whether in Israel or outside Israel.
"I have a lot of family, particularly in the United States, who did survive the Holocaust," says the conductor. "I am absolutely aware of what I'm doing. I'm not coming from the moon and saying, 'Let's play Wagner's music.' I have the greatest respect, and I will shut my mouth if a survivor with a number on his hand were to say something. I cannot tell him, 'Just forget about Wagner's anti-Semitism, or about his terrible words against the Jews.'" |
A minor victory for sanity, peace, and beauty. Of course not everyone feels that way:
| Quote: | Israelis performing Wagner in Germany - a national disgrace
For Jews, and in particular for survivors, Wagner is not just another anti-Semite. He is bracketed with Nazism, and can be said to have been a forerunner of those who paved the way for the Shoah. On top of this, Bayreuth, the location of the festival, was renowned as a center for Nazi “cultural” activity.
Under such circumstances, it is surely shameful for an Israeli chamber orchestra, perceived to be representative of the Jewish people, to be linked to such an evil person.
It truly requires a person to act in a schizophrenic manner to say that they can enjoy this man’s music and close their eyes to his evil actions. But even more so, the heartlessness of Israelis ignoring the sensitivities of Holocaust survivors represents a stain on our dignity and national identity. |
| Quote: | Israeli Orchestra Plays Hitler Favorite, Angering Jewish Community
"A disgraceful abandonment of solidarity with those who suffered at the hand of the Nazis," said Elan Steinberg, deputy head of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants.
"Nobody suggests that Wagner's music not be played. But the public Jewish refusal to do so was a powerful message of indignation to the world that exposed Wagner's odious anti-Semitic ideas and those who championed them." |
| Quote: | Wagner should be banned
I don’t think that Wagner’s anti-Semitism would justify removing his works from the repertoire of, say, the Boston Symphony. But I do think it fitting that there should be one place in the world where Wagner’s music is not played in public solely because of the hateful ideas of the man who wrote it.
In light of the recrudescence of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in Europe and the West, now that many intellectuals, academics, artists and journalists are giving cover to international criminals against Israel and the Jews, now that Holocaust denial is spreading again all over the world, Wagner’s ban serves as a useful reminder that ideas, ideologies, articles and books have real consequences. And that those who spread evil ideas should be held responsible for their consequences. Even geniuses. From Tehran to Cairo, as log as anti-Semitic leaders incite for a new Shoah, Richard Wagner’s music should be “verboten.” Forbidden. |
Finally, an interview of the conductor.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Instead of boycotting Wagner, Israel should co-opt it as the theme music of Zionism, like the American revolutionaries with "Yankee Doodle". |
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richk449
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject: Israeli orchestra plays Wagner [dmitchell] |
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http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/news/israeli-orchestra-strikes-note-of-controversy-with-wagner-work-7804991.html
| Quote: | A seven-decade old cultural taboo will be broken next month when an Israeli symphony orchestra will play works by Richard Wagner inside the country for the first time since the state's foundation in 1948.
The Eretz Israel orchestra, the pre-state forerunner of the world-famous Israel Philharmonic, stopped playing the music of the German composer, who was notorious for expressing anti-Semitic views, in 1938 after the Nazis' Kristallnacht pogrom of Jews. Attempts to include Wagner, who was also Hitler's favourite composer, in Israeli concert repertoires since then have always been thwarted by heated opposition. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:43 am Post subject: |
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That taboo was broken a year ago (July 2011) by the Israel Chamber Orchestra at the Beyreuth Opera Festival. We talked about it in here.
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | That taboo was broken a year ago (July 2011) by the Israel Chamber Orchestra at the Beyreuth Opera Festival. We talked about it in here. |
different taboo, read again
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | That taboo was broken a year ago (July 2011) by the Israel Chamber Orchestra at the Beyreuth Opera Festival. We talked about it in here. |
different taboo, read again |
How is it a different taboo? Because it's a symphony orchestra rather than a chamber orchestra? 
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pjp
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:47 am Post subject: |
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Merged the 2011 & 2012 threads to the 2010.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:31 am Post subject: |
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | That taboo was broken a year ago (July 2011) by the Israel Chamber Orchestra at the Beyreuth Opera Festival. We talked about it in here. |
different taboo, read again |
How is it a different taboo? Because it's a symphony orchestra rather than a chamber orchestra? |
one played in Germany, the other plays in Israel.
One taboo: playing Wagner
other taboo: playing Wagner in Israel
so merging the threads was... not ok. That would be like merging all Obama threads and all Bush threads into a 'all american politicians are asstards' thread.
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| AidanJT wrote: |
Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.
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Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup. |
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tylerwylie
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: |
so merging the threads was... not ok. That would be like merging all Obama threads and all Bush threads into a 'all american politicians are asstards' thread. |
And what about discussions of large chinned women?
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