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SlackJawed
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: All F-35s grounded. Reply with quote

http://www.wtvy.com/home/headlines/F-35s-Grounded-after-Eglin-AFB-Incident-265827641.html
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scrap metal :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought there was hardly any metal in them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The program really ought to be cancelled.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should have gone with the Boeing solution
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it reasonably possible to highlight a few bullet points in layman's terms about how you thought the Boeing solution was better? I don't have a dog in the hunt, so its just a curiosity.

My main issue is that "new" planes* seem to suffer from too many problems to justify the cost. *Planes only because that's the topic... the issue seems to be pervasive for any major new weapons system.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'd be better off with the Advanced Super Hornet. As for the USMC's need for VTOL, that needs to be reassessed.[/quote]
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Is it reasonably possible to highlight a few bullet points in layman's terms about how you thought the Boeing solution was better? I don't have a dog in the hunt, so its just a curiosity.

My main issue is that "new" planes* seem to suffer from too many problems to justify the cost. *Planes only because that's the topic... the issue seems to be pervasive for any major new weapons system.


Essentially the outline was the same - DoD/MoD sort of called for that stumpy shape. My opinion is the Boeing's looked nicer, curves over the main wing - they essentially had the entire airframe as one mass fabeication. But that is personal opinion.


The LM design significantly overcomplicated the engine to facilitate vstol.
The entire rear of the engine can pivot down. BUT it needed a lift fan to counteract the force... Entire engine is then shorter at the expense of a significantly complex engine.

Boeing too the harrier concept and expanded on it. The entire length is the engine = more thrust. It had a rear jet (unlike harrier) so it could reach high speed but it also had vector nozzles for vstol
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
We'd be better off with the Advanced Super Hornet. As for the USMC's need for VTOL, that needs to be reassessed.
[/quote]

Wouldn't have filled a 'designed' requirement. Essentially the f-35 is to fill part of the roll the Comanche was todo. Just up-reving the f18 would not facilitate improved battlefield information linkage
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
We'd be better off with the Advanced Super Hornet. As for the USMC's need for VTOL, that needs to be reassessed.

Wouldn't have filled a 'designed' requirement. Essentially the f-35 is to fill part of the roll the Comanche was todo. Just up-reving the f18 would not facilitate improved battlefield information linkage

And this requires an entirely new aircraft? Who says we can't upgrade the F/A-18 to do this? Lockheed-Martin?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

US better come up with air superiority drones fast that really work and do mach2+ and carry enough armament or the F-35 won't be able to project air superiority anywhere where there are other modern jets that can take it down.
F-22 could do the job but it was deemed too expensive (irony).
If F-35 is supposed to do the job of the attack helicopters, that's fine if there is air superiority. Without that, the conventional fighters + choppers is still better option.

F-35 simply makes no sense whatsoever. VTOL, ye amazing if the objective is to bomb medieval people with AK-47's. If pitted against modern russia or china, it's amusing.

It's like the aircraft was designed to remove US air superiority off the tables, while at the same time pretending it's doing the opposite and generating revenue for some corporate honchos and congressmen.
Lobbyism at work, darwin award in 3,2,1
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Naib wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
We'd be better off with the Advanced Super Hornet. As for the USMC's need for VTOL, that needs to be reassessed.

Wouldn't have filled a 'designed' requirement. Essentially the f-35 is to fill part of the roll the Comanche was todo. Just up-reving the f18 would not facilitate improved battlefield information linkage

And this requires an entirely new aircraft? Who says we can't upgrade the F/A-18 to do this? Lockheed-Martin?
the harrier is filling a role for the marines and the navy, an aircraft that has been upgraded quite a few times but was beyond showing its age.
Someone made the call and it was put out to tender
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
F-35 simply makes no sense whatsoever. VTOL, ye amazing if the objective is to bomb medieval people with AK-47's. If pitted against modern russia or china, it's amusing.

The main user of VTOL is the Marine Corps. They do not fight opponents such as Russia and China. That would be up to the Air Force and the Army.


Last edited by wswartzendruber on Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
the harrier is filling a role for the marines and the navy, an aircraft that has been upgraded quite a few times but was beyond showing its age.
Someone made the call and it was put out to tender

The F/A-18 is not the Harrier. Why can the F/A-18 not be upgraded?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Naib wrote:
the harrier is filling a role for the marines and the navy, an aircraft that has been upgraded quite a few times but was beyond showing its age.
Someone made the call and it was put out to tender

The F/A-18 is not the Harrier. Why can the F/A-18 not be upgraded?

Because the harrier is not the f/a-18 and has been retired
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. The A/V-8 Harrier has not been retired.
2. The F/A-18 Super Hornet hasn't been retired, either.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
1. The A/V-8 Harrier has not been retired.
2. The F/A-18 Super Hornet hasn't been retired, either.
Never said the f/a-18 was going to be retired.
The harrier is showing its age considerable. The RNavy has retired it, taking a gamble w.r.t. F35 availability, new aircraft carrier, cost-saving in the short-term and arguing limited need need for a carrier for the next couple of years. The US Marines are holding off and if you look at the number they have ordered, they are planning on retiring the Harrier as well (just not wanting to weaken themselves).

So it comes back to the role of the harrier still needs to be filled so... if a new airframe has been deemed needed (because an FA-18 does NOT fill the roll of the Harrier or how the Marines use it... ) what use is upgrading the FA-18 to facilitate a battlefield data concentrator when it won't fill the hole left by the harrier
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:

So it comes back to the role of the harrier still needs to be filled so...


why?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Naib wrote:

So it comes back to the role of the harrier still needs to be filled so...


why?


Because VTOL is so cool.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

porodzila wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Naib wrote:

So it comes back to the role of the harrier still needs to be filled so...


why?


Because VTOL is so cool.


apart from vtol - why do you need a harrier type plane anyway?
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It smells of the "gusy I haz an idea... how hard can it be? We build a stealth fighter, that's cheap, does VTOL, and is dominating in both air-to-air and air-to-ground!"
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
It smells of the "gusy I haz an idea... how hard can it be? We build a stealth fighter, that's cheap, does VTOL, and is dominating in both air-to-air and air-to-ground!"


jack of all trades, suck at everything, master of none?
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Naib wrote:

So it comes back to the role of the harrier still needs to be filled so...


why?
because the Nimitz-class carriers are big and expensive. There are advantages in having smaller carriers as you can utilise ski jump as opposed to catapult
Equally STOL types are capable of being deployed and landing in a wider range of runways while still be mach speed capable.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
It smells of the "gusy I haz an idea... how hard can it be? We build a stealth fighter, that's cheap, does VTOL, and is dominating in both air-to-air and air-to-ground!"
that I don't like. Sure refit out a type for perminant ground strike but you can't really have such a plane doing multirole like that...
That's why there is the F and GR mark for the tornado
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Naib wrote:

So it comes back to the role of the harrier still needs to be filled so...


why?
because the Nimitz-class carriers are big and expensive. There are advantages in having smaller carriers as you can utilise ski jump as opposed to catapult
Equally STOL types are capable of being deployed and landing in a wider range of runways while still be mach speed capable.


why carriers? if your opponent is a technologically insignificant power, you don't need it. If it actually can fight back, the carrier is nothing but a big, expensive death trap.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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