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Would you support a Gentoo move to clang/LLVM
Yes
79%
 79%  [ 155 ]
No
20%
 20%  [ 40 ]
Total Votes : 195

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1clue
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
heh, Gentoo2 or Gentootoo

Gentwo would get my vote :)
It would have to be Gentootwo then


Gentutu?

Sorry I came to the thread late.

<rant>
IMO, the scariest hazard of Open Source is a guy named Richard Stallman. Number 2 is the GPL.

There is absolutely no reason why Open Source cannot coexist with commercial interests with fantastic results. The one reason why I will never install the HURD is because of Richard Stallman.

GNU makes some really neat stuff, I can't imagine living without them anytime soon. Their fixation with "All Software Must Be Free" is so bizarre I have no words for it.
</rant>

Some of you guys need to start looking at Java and VMware closer.

Back when I was in college, I was taught that virtual machines had to have worse performance than a physical machine. VMware is theoretically a layer of abstraction between the hardware and the software, but in real practice it actually gets better performance than putting an OS on bare hardware. By using one piece of hardware to host several virtual machines, you get better CPU utilization (and other hardware utilization) than you would by having a bunch of discrete boxes, and you get far more peak resources than you could have on all those discrete boxes.

Java has gained quite a following on the server side too, for multiple reasons. Mainly though, I think it pertains to this discussion because there's a Java compiler specification and as a result there are multiple competing Java compilers, all of which are pretty much plug-in replacements. The stock one from Sun is by no means the fastest.

I think the GNU compiler gained so much popularity because it was the only truly useful free compiler. I don't know how much work is involved with the GCC replacement because all I've dealt with on any scale is Java. Since there is a set of tests to validate how good a Java compiler is, you have a reasonable degree of certainty that the one you replace Sun's JDK with will work OK.


As far as "porting Gentoo" to some other compiler, it just can't work like that. As with any new compiler, it needs to start with getting a good compiler and then porting or replacing libraries. People will start using it large scale when it starts to be better than the competition in some real way. As much as I don't like Stallman, I don't think that's really enough to get the Open Source world to port everything away from it.

I like the idea of having multiple compiler options for OS apps, but it will be awhile before we're really there I think.
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avx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just setup an VM (x86_64/~amd64), desktop-profile and ICC with minimal C(XX)FLAGS(-O2 -xT -gcc) and FEATURES="split-log". It'll emerge complete gnome, kde-meta, xfce, firefox, openoffice and a few other things, since these are quite common and pull in a lot of packages. From that. I'll try to gather a list of packages, who won't build even against a very basic ICC-setup and then try the ones one build successfully against uclibc and dietlibc.

We'll see how good that goes, system should be under load for about 8-10 hours I guess(if it doesn't rain havoc that is).
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
I just setup an VM (x86_64/~amd64), desktop-profile and ICC with minimal C(XX)FLAGS(-O2 -xT -gcc) and FEATURES="split-log". It'll emerge complete gnome, kde-meta, xfce, firefox, openoffice and a few other things, since these are quite common and pull in a lot of packages. From that. I'll try to gather a list of packages, who won't build even against a very basic ICC-setup and then try the ones one build successfully against uclibc and dietlibc.

We'll see how good that goes, system should be under load for about 8-10 hours I guess(if it doesn't rain havoc that is).
I am very interested to see how this goes. I am more than wiling to possibly hose my system to help out
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avx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found out, that the guys from linuxdna.com offer a "ready2go"-VMware-Image, so if you need a playground, maybe that's a good start.

http://www.linuxdna.com/
http://www.linuxdna.com/gentoo_icc_cleanvm.tar.gz (edit, their mirror seems quite slow or is limiting connections, I'm only getting ~110kb/s and the download is ~700mb :( )

Currently my VM ain't live, meaning I'm still in a chroot (from sysresccd), but so far, ~420 packages are compiled without portage failing, so I guess the situation ain't soo bad.

Updates to come later.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could really do with that being in virtualbox form :(
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avx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doing some googleing shows, that VBox should be able to open and run a VMware vmdk and there's also at least one way (via qemu) to convert it. Give it a try ;) - or you could use a VMware-Trial or get it from the dark side or throw lucky charms at it or ... :P

Edit, a lot of x11-base stuff breaks while trying to build xorg-x11, xauth f.e. spits at least two dozen warnings and some showstoppers. From a quick glance at the log, nothing totally unfixable, though.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
Doing some googleing shows, that VBox should be able to open and run a VMware vmdk and there's also at least one way (via qemu) to convert it. Give it a try ;) - or you could use a VMware-Trial or get it from the dark side or throw lucky charms at it or ... :P

Edit, a lot of x11-base stuff breaks while trying to build xorg-x11, xauth f.e. spits at least two dozen warnings and some showstoppers. From a quick glance at the log, nothing totally unfixable, though.
you should keep a note of the emerge.log and create an overlay for people wishing to try it out. People can use the overlay, say what works and more packages get added. Ones that dont can be reported to Gentoo and/or fixed
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea, I'll see what I can do about it. For now
emerge failed wrote:
dev-libs/check-0.9.8
dev-libs/elfutils-0.145
dev-libs/libical-0.44
dev-libs/liboil-0.3.16
dev-libs/nss-3.12.6-r1
dev-python/pyorbit-2.24.0
media-sound/cdparanoia-3.10.2-r3
net-libs/gnutls-2.8.6
net-wireless/bluez-4.63
sys-apps/devicekit-power-014
sys-apps/parted-2.2
x11-apps/x11perf-1.5.1
x11-apps/xauth-1.0.4
x11-apps/xhost-1.0.3
x11-libs/libXaw-1.0.7
x11-libs/libXvMC-1.0.5
x11-libs/qt-core-4.6.2-r1
x11-misc/makedepend-1.0.2

I'll try keeping the list up2date @ http://phorcix.org/proj/gentoo_icc/errors

Of course, some of this build-failures are related to each other, but it should give a starting point.

Edit, since this errors currently don't allow for continuing to build gnome, I'll continue with kde-meta for now.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
Good idea, I'll see what I can do about it. For now
emerge failed wrote:
dev-libs/check-0.9.8
dev-libs/elfutils-0.145
dev-libs/libical-0.44
dev-libs/liboil-0.3.16
dev-libs/nss-3.12.6-r1
dev-python/pyorbit-2.24.0
media-sound/cdparanoia-3.10.2-r3
net-libs/gnutls-2.8.6
net-wireless/bluez-4.63
sys-apps/devicekit-power-014
sys-apps/parted-2.2
x11-apps/x11perf-1.5.1
x11-apps/xauth-1.0.4
x11-apps/xhost-1.0.3
x11-libs/libXaw-1.0.7
x11-libs/libXvMC-1.0.5
x11-libs/qt-core-4.6.2-r1
x11-misc/makedepend-1.0.2

I'll try keeping the list up2date @ http://phorcix.org/proj/gentoo_icc/errors

Of course, some of this build-failures are related to each other, but it should give a starting point.

Edit, since this errors currently don't allow for continuing to build gnome, I'll continue with kde-meta for now.
liboil may kill lots to do with python, devicekit-power will be a blocker in the future, libXaW will stop Xorg and qt-core isn't worth bothering with :D
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qt4 isn't worth it? Come here, boy! It's time for your slapping! :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Qt4 isn't worth it? Come here, boy! It's time for your slapping! :lol:
nop, best o concentrate on decent package that aren't 99% bloat :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm no fan of QT either, but I guess this failure is just related to something failing before. Since Intel and Nokia are pushing Meego (moblin+maemo), I'm quite sure Intel wants it compiled against their own compiler.

On the other hand, I don't need python. Well, for emerge that is, but I'm sure we could find something better...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heh, 80kb/s

If we can create a complete working non-GNU system with all the basic tools (minux the graphical interfaces and such) then we can release it as a stage4. My processor, the Q6600 is possibly the most common at the moment so there would be a good place to start. AMD may be a bit harder but I know AidanJT and energyman have amd chips

When running Gentoo, python is pretty essential. It's backbone is built on it.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qt-core fails because a patch fails, so that should be fixable.

Well, @cokehabit, make a list of what you'd call essential and we'll see.

Edit, nothing special, but I've got an AMD Athlon 3500+ in my wife's pc.
Edit2, at least enlightenment (dr16) compiled fine.

Edit3, http://phorcix.org/proj/gentoo_icc/fine - list of everything compiled against ICC including the following, which are still compiled against gcc(ripped the list from the wiki):
gcc-built wrote:
app-shells/bash
sys-apps/sed
sys-devel/binutils
sys-devel/gcc
sys-libs/glibc
sys-libs/ncurses
sys-libs/libstdc++-v3
sys-libs/zlib
sys-process/procps


Edit4, updated my profile with one of my jabber-accs, if someone wants to talk directly - or maybe we should open up an #irc somewhere?!

Edit5, updated the "fine"-link, currently 869 packages merged successfully.


Last edited by avx on Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
qt-core fails because a patch fails, so that should be fixable.

Well, @cokehabit, make a list of what you'd call essential and we'll see.

Edit, nothing special, but I've got an AMD Athlon 3500+ in my wife's pc.
Edit2, at least enlightenment (dr16) compiled fine.

Edit3, http://phorcix.org/proj/gentoo_icc/fine - list of everything compiled against ICC including the following, which are still compiled against gcc(ripped the list from the wiki):
gcc-built wrote:
app-shells/bash
sys-apps/sed
sys-devel/binutils
sys-devel/gcc
sys-libs/glibc
sys-libs/ncurses
sys-libs/libstdc++-v3
sys-libs/zlib
sys-process/procps


Edit4, updated my profile with one of my jabber-accs, if someone wants to talk directly - or maybe we should open up an #irc somewhere?!
I'm off to a Thai restaurant for a mate's 31st so i wont be along for a while. I think i'm cokehabit@jabber, all I remember was I got the account because everyone in Germany uses Jabber
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
everyone in Germany uses Jabber
Well, not really, I wish that would be the case. Anyway, enjoy the evening :)
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1clue
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VMware has some Open Source software:
http://www.vmware.com/download/open_source.html

I use VMware Server. It's perfect for having the sort of sandbox you guys are using right now. It's free to download and use last time I looked, but my now be OS if I haven't missed something.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick update, I'm at ~1600 Packages now, currently trying to merge everythin in app-* & net-*.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having a compiler endorse by apple just make me feel like i'm in a jail and someone ask me to grab the soap in the bathroom...
Even he said he won't do anything, sorry, i will not.

I'm always amaze by steve jobs success, he change anything to gold, but alas, he really change anything to gold and you have to paid gold to get it.

gentoo with that compiler knowing how steve jobs handle things would be :

Code:
>clang something.c
done
>clang something.java
You need the "clang java plug-ins". Would you like to download it from itunes for 1$ (Y/n) ?
>N
>emerge gentoo-sources
clang: you are using a third party software to run "clang". This is against our license.
emerge fail: C compiler cannot create executable.
>clang bzimage
clang: your license is invalid. Would you like to download a valid license for 9$ from our partners, or for 5$ from itunes (p/I/n) ?
>I
thank you
>clang bzimage
clang: itunes has detect a new ipod #3AFFI34, your itunes database is for ipod #SFMSK3, Would you like itunes to convert your database for that ipod #3AFFI34 for 2$ (Y/n) ?


To sum up, i like gcc as it is and i will even be scare if gentoo wish to drop it for clang or another commercial compiler.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To sum up, i like gcc as it is and i will even be scare if gentoo wish to drop it for clang or another commercial compiler.
No need to be scared, we're not talking about dropping gcc for good, but how we can achieve an environment, where everybody can use his prefered compiler or - even better - a mixture, using whatever is best for a case. So, you can keep your gcc, I'll get my beloved ICC and others use whatever they prefer, in the good ol' Gentoo spirit as in "freedom of choice" :)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
syntropy wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
I dont think curie is full-featured enough (from what magnus tells me).

Curie isn't at all intended to be a libc replacement.

It'd probably be better to start a new one from scratch, and just do it properly.


That's the trick to it all though. (Emphasis mine.)

wswartzendruber wrote:
Am I wrong to say that if glibc isn't portable then it's broken?

It is portable, as long as you define portable to mean, "I can infect your system with my crap without any extra work."

What I was trying to says is this: If glibc doesn't follow the ANSI standards, isn't it broken?


I believe it does follow ANSI standards, for whatever that is worth. If I remember correctly, ANSI is the rough equivalent of C89.

The standard means effectively nothing.

One problem is that most (if not all) compilers that claim to implement ISO standards either do so only partially, incorrectly or completely wrong.

I believe the one compiler which properly implements C99 is the "Portable C Compiler" (PCC, from the old BSD days), but other than that they all only achieve "best effort" towards the standard. GCC docs even show where and why they deliberately deviated from the standards. They call that quasi-standard "GNU99".

Another issue is that under some platforms, some environments, and across compatibility between two revision of the C standard end up being ambiguous. Some companies involved in real time work on embedded platforms have developed their own standards which explain these ambiguities and provide solutions, but access to those quasi-standards is restricted to those willing to pay the licensing fees to view them.

Although the standards exist and are great for most intents and purposes, there are some faults involved in them.

My own opinions:
I think that a core C library should contain only the invariant C abstract machine and the stubs required to interface to some dynamic linker. All of the memory allocation, string functions, higher level dynamic linking, various math functions and such, which can change significantly over each standard revision, should be contained in their own libraries and linked (either statically or dynamically) with the core. This also means that things like "multi-lib" (and by extension, multiple-kernel/architecture systems) can be approached in a much saner way than they are now.

tldr; everyone and their dog claim standard code is the best. this is not the case. suck it.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Having a compiler endorse by apple just make me feel like i'm in a jail and someone ask me to grab the soap in the bathroom...
Even he said he won't do anything, sorry, i will not.

I'm always amaze by steve jobs success, he change anything to gold, but alas, he really change anything to gold and you have to paid gold to get it.

gentoo with that compiler knowing how steve jobs handle things would be :

Code:
>clang something.c
done
>clang something.java
You need the "clang java plug-ins". Would you like to download it from itunes for 1$ (Y/n) ?
>N
>emerge gentoo-sources
clang: you are using a third party software to run "clang". This is against our license.
emerge fail: C compiler cannot create executable.
>clang bzimage
clang: your license is invalid. Would you like to download a valid license for 9$ from our partners, or for 5$ from itunes (p/I/n) ?
>I
thank you
>clang bzimage
clang: itunes has detect a new ipod #3AFFI34, your itunes database is for ipod #SFMSK3, Would you like itunes to convert your database for that ipod #3AFFI34 for 2$ (Y/n) ?


To sum up, i like gcc as it is and i will even be scare if gentoo wish to drop it for clang or another commercial compiler.
mate, if Steve Jobs ever got near the project with more than funding I would go away straight away
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
mate, if Steve Jobs ever got near the project with more than funding I would go away straight away

This was exactly what i was thinking when i said
krinn wrote:
Even he said he won't do anything,

Seriously, never forget how strong he is: the fact the compiler is BSD license is exactly why apple fund the project...
Just ask yourself why apple pickup bsd to build OS/X, because steve jobs is so smart that he find a way to get money from free work of others. Pure genius.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
mate, if Steve Jobs ever got near the project with more than funding I would go away straight away

This was exactly what i was thinking when i said
krinn wrote:
Even he said he won't do anything,

Seriously, never forget how strong he is: the fact the compiler is BSD license is exactly why apple fund the project...
Just ask yourself why apple pickup bsd to build OS/X, because steve jobs is so smart that he find a way to get money from free work of others. Pure genius.
Strong? He's started a fight with Nokia - a company bigger than Apple.
He started a fight with Google - a company WAY bigger than Apple is.

Now he's started a fight with Adobe. Probably just because he knows he's going to lose against Nokia and Google
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Strong?

Sorry, i was speaking about his mind or sens of affairs... not about how big or how much money apple company might have.
Maybe a misuse of the word, in french strong could be use that way. was trying to avoid saying he's a genius twice time in a row :D
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