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johnny99
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to help. I used to rely on the old wiki a lot. For the past few years I have relied on wiki-archives for the important documents that aren't on the new unofficial wiki.

I just tried http://gentoowiki.a3li.li, created an account, and edited 'Wanted Extensions', adding Dia, but it gives an Internal error:
Code:
Warning: Parameter 1 to ReCaptcha::confirmEdit() expected to be a reference, value given in
/var/www/localhost/htdocs/gentoowiki/includes/Hooks.php on line 133


Lets get this party started. ;)
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Bill Cosby
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems dead.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo bureocracy sucks.
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AllenJB
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think beuracracy killed the official wiki project. In my opinion it was a combination of lack of clear goals and a lack of people pushing things forward by simply putting actual articles on the wiki.

Starting a wiki is a massive project and they take a lot of effort to get moving. You'll always start out with a lack of real interest - people may be interested in an official wiki in theory, but they don't want to or feel they can't contribute when they don't know exactly what type of content is expected and/or they fear the project will quickly fail and their efforts will be wasted.

The only way to combat this is to start by defining what type of content you want on the wiki and getting some up there. The formatting and templates aren't particularly important at this stage - you can go back and reformat articles easily. Plus the articles you put up will serve as testing grounds as you create and implement templates.
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
In my opinion it was a combination of lack of clear goals and a lack of people pushing things forward by simply putting actual articles on the wiki.

I.e. A requirement for an elaborate content control and vetting mechanisms, and lack of approved people who can make things happen. Or in other words, bureaucracy.
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cryptosteve
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Or in other words, bureaucracy.

Full ACK!
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alexandervdm
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we please revive this project? I think a lot of us are anxious to start typing documents. The unofficial wiki is linked to all over the web (I've used it myself countless times when I was a new gentoo'er) and I would love to see what the combined knowledge of this community could do.
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Bill Cosby
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't even see what the problem is.
Just put up some wiki software and let it flow. A wiki full of spam is better than no wiki at all.
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Chiitoo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would really like to see this going, I edit some wikkis myself and would like to contribute to this one though there would be not much I could do with being such a noob to Gentoo and Linux altogether but I am learning and of course there are other things to a wikki than just the information it contains.

~cheers the people on who are working on this~
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wim-x
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo Wiki Project wrote:
The goal of the Gentoo Wiki is to provide an accessible web-based service for easy collaboration on various documents relating to the development and use of the Gentoo distribution and for related community needs.

This goal is provided by the unoffical Gentoo Wiki already. The fact that this is not an official Gentoo project doesn't mean it couldn't be integrated into something official.

One of the corner stones of Gentoo is it's quality documentation. Why not scout the unofficial Wiki for articles which can be turned into official Gentoo articles? Most likely there needs to be a phase between them, like release candidate documentation, but still accessible via the Gentoo site. While in this RC phase, relevant changes to the articles in the unofficial Wiki can be easily integrated. Contribution credits can be made through "user at gentoo-wiki.com".

  • the project members could start right away! no install needed.
  • the unofficial Wiki already has a markup standard similar the GuideXML; conversion can be scripted (I think)
  • the Gentoo Wiki team can focus more on article quality and doc writer relations, instead of fighting spam
  • perhaps unofficial Wiki users can function as proxy-maintainers for specific articles

The advantages of an official Gentoo Wiki would have to be big to justify putting scarce human resources on spam maintenance. A Mediawiki frontend/GuideXML-svn backend of some sorts would be that advantage methinks. Although working more closely together with the unofficial Wiki could provide similar revision data.
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AllenJB
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still don't see a need to put an "official" stamp on the unofficial wiki content. Or run an "official" wiki that covers the exact same goals.

There is a need for the existing official documentation to be in a better format so that it's quicker and easier to edit for the developers. Virtually nobody knows GuideXML and even fewer want to work with it. I would propose a highly controlled wiki for this purpose.

Basically, as I see it, an official wiki (for official documentation) would be the same setup as it is now - only developers can edit it while users can submit patches through some means - either discussion pages or text base patches to bugzilla as it done currently. The key here is that wiki markup is (compared to GuideXML) much more widely known and easier to work with.

On the other hand, the documentation on the unofficial wiki is so great because it is so easily editable by anyone. If you start trying to take that away and start messing about with multiple versions of the same document and different levels of editors, you're going to fracture the editors. One of the most powerful features of a wiki is that (for the most part) everyone is the same level.

I've written a number of articles on the wiki and I don't think I'd consider submitting them as official documentation or on any sort of controlled wiki as I'd lose a level of control over them. I like the fact that I can update them quickly and easily if I discover something I want to add or amend.
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Angrychile
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

May be a wanted posting could be put up for an official overseer of this project...if anyone cares. Giving someone actually interested in an official wiki a concrete responsibility might push things forward.
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wim-x
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
There is a need for the existing official documentation to be in a better format so that it's quicker and easier to edit for the developers.

I don't think the format is the problem, but rather the interface. Indeed, few people want to work with plain GuideXML, but it can be (structurally) validated more easily than any wiki format.

Wouldn't a WYSIWY(G/M) editor for GuideXML solve this problem as well? Especially when having a revision control system as backend, where each developer has an own branch, which in turn can be merged with the master "official" branch.

This, although a logical inference, is not the goal of the project; there is no mention of integration of wiki documentation into official documentation. What existing problem is this project trying to solve?
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AllenJB
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wim-x wrote:
AllenJB wrote:
There is a need for the existing official documentation to be in a better format so that it's quicker and easier to edit for the developers.

I don't think the format is the problem, but rather the interface. Indeed, few people want to work with plain GuideXML, but it can be (structurally) validated more easily than any wiki format.

Wouldn't a WYSIWY(G/M) editor for GuideXML solve this problem as well? Especially when having a revision control system as backend, where each developer has an own branch, which in turn can be merged with the master "official" branch.


The only problem is writing one. There was a project to do that too, but I haven't heard anything about that in ages either. I suspect it's a similar story - those who started it got distracted by more interesting endeavours.

Alternatively, you could just switch to a pre-existing format that is already in relatively heavy use and has a number of complete implementations in the form of both complete applications (mediawiki) and a number of libraries written for validation, translation, revision control and display that can ease integration with other / bespoke projects.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wim-x,

There is beacon and xmlcopyeditor for xml editing.
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wim-x
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks NeddySeagoon, I knew about xmlcopyeditor, but not about beacon. Once started on a Gentoo SoC, it is now hosted by Fedora. Going to play with the source code I found, and check out if anyone from Fedora is still working on them.
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likewhoa
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone know the status on this project?
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

likewhoa wrote:
Anyone know the status on this project?

Seconded.

Also, a general question:

What is special about Gentoo that Arch, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. can all have effective community wikis, but Gentoo cannot?
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably lack of manpower on the main website. The fact that it's built using bespoke and extremely specific tools is only making the barrier to entry higher than it needs to be IMO.
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does Arch have more manpower than Gentoo? Their wiki is very nice.
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cach0rr0
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:

What is special about Gentoo that Arch, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. can all have effective community wikis, but Gentoo cannot?


losing the entirety of the wiki and having to piece it back together from archives and google cache certainly didn't help in terms of actual content available. Used to be the case that I'd use Gentoo doc to do things on other distros. That was a major setback, hasn't been the same since.
as far as contributors, no idea. Don't really have any hand in that.
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am aware of the great gentoo-wiki erasure, but there is new content being developed by users every day here on the forums. It would be great if there were a wiki to deposit these insights in a an organized fashion.
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cach0rr0
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
I am aware of the great gentoo-wiki erasure, but there is new content being developed by users every day here on the forums. It would be great if there were a wiki to deposit these insights in a an organized fashion.


fully agree. What's frustrating, the cost (figuratively) of doing so is next to nil, no real barrier. Right now I don't think anyone is entirely clear on how you get access to update the wiki, who has access, what the procedure is, etc. It's not even really a technological challenge right now so much as it is planning and whatnot that needs to be done.

Not sure the best way to go about it (and I am speaking here in as informal unofficial tone as possible).
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fear that the Gentoo organization won't get its s*** together until there's a viable competing distro.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think any organization in the history of organizations has ever had all of its shit together.
And every entity that has ever been is always understaffed.

It'll be the case everywhere - arch, fedora, debian, ubuntu, whoever - more deficiencies than there is manpower to resolve deficiencies, so you're left in a position of having to prioritize which deficiencies need to be resolved in order to have the greatest overall benefit, greatest return on investment. Even if you have a commercial backer, and tonnes of operating capital with which you can hire on dedicated headcount to take care of it, you'll always be short-handed. I don't think I've ever been in a job in my professional career where I haven't said to myself "shit, this is too much, we need more people". Such is the grind. Dearth of resources requires prioritization.

I haven't a clue where those priorities reside on Gentoo, nor where the wiki ranks in this. But just as one mustn't rest on their laurels, sit back, and just *assume* "everything will get worked out", the status as of yet isn't one that has me in panic mode.

Point blank, it needs to be done, the wiki project is in need of an overhaul, in need of clear definition, hierarchy, and so forth. We need to get it clearly outlined, and formally documented, how one signs up to be a contributor, the procedure for doing so, the review process, who's in charge of review, what's the review schedule like, etc. But again, I haven't a clue where on the priorities list that ranks. And while it's absolutely a high priority, I *personally* (speaking completely unofficially) am not yet panicked.
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