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Peach
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject: What's wrong with Gentoo, anyway? Reply with quote

I'm reporting a nice and interesting read from Flameeyes about what he thinks is wrong about Gentoo.
I'm not working on the internals of gentoo, but I sometimes felt the same as a developer using gentoo as my production machine
what do you think 'bout it?
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/2010/02/22/what-s-wrong-with-gentoo-anyway
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate how Diego writes, I appreciate the way he explains the problems and keeping the developers names "hidden".
I don't like when the only solution seems to be "resigning".

It doesn't work like that; it doesn't fix the problems though. I think that Diego is the biggest contributor, he's done so much for the distro and I think everyone should thank him first before blaming him for such a reaction. Said that, I can't stand when people argue this way.
You're supposed to be men before developers, before Gentoo/Linux enthusiast and, although I agree with Diego, I didn't like his reaction and I feel he's going to take back what he said regarding the resignment thing.

I'm not deeply involved into Gentoo projects myself, I'm just one that watch, observe and I think that there's much "arguing" in these kind of situations. Sterile talks don't produce anything but angry and austerity.

This should be an united community where one's effort should make others life easier. This shouldn't drive into these kind of bad situations that don't give anything good to anyone.

IMHO, obviously.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although most of the technical underpinnings of Diego's blog go above and beyond my knowledge of Gentoo and how a distro works (I'm just a user not a dealer :) ) It does appear that this is definitely a situation that has probably unreasonably escalated. I wonder who is in "charge" of these situations. In my personal job this appears like 3 high level employees who have a fundamental disagreement over how to handle something with no one person or persons who are able or willing to drop the hammer and just make a decision. I think part of the beauty of linux distro's and open source in general is that there is a certain sense of freedom of decision making but this beauty can turn ugly when a project needs unity of direction to succeed and there is no one to clearly seize control of a situation.

I hope that Diego stays and the issues with the two other developers works itself out because I LOVE GENTOO and would hate to see one of the biggest contributors leave. I have tried many distro's over the past 5-6 years but once I tried gentoo I have never not had it installed on at least one of my computers. And for the past 2-3 years it is the only distro I run (except a little XP for my gaming addiction when it hits).

This is probably a good time to just say thank you to everyone big and small who makes Gentoo run. I assume no one gets paid and does this because they like/love to and not for riches and fame ;) . So thank you and keep up the good work ... even with some of the little bumps in the road.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobspencer123 wrote:
Although most of the technical underpinnings of Diego's blog go above and beyond my knowledge of Gentoo and how a distro works (I'm just a user not a dealer :) ) It does appear that this is definitely a situation that has probably unreasonably escalated. I wonder who is in "charge" of these situations. In my personal job this appears like 3 high level employees who have a fundamental disagreement over how to handle something with no one person or persons who are able or willing to drop the hammer and just make a decision. I think part of the beauty of linux distro's and open source in general is that there is a certain sense of freedom of decision making but this beauty can turn ugly when a project needs unity of direction to succeed and there is no one to clearly seize control of a situation.

I hope that Diego stays and the issues with the two other developers works itself out because I LOVE GENTOO and would hate to see one of the biggest contributors leave. I have tried many distro's over the past 5-6 years but once I tried gentoo I have never not had it installed on at least one of my computers. And for the past 2-3 years it is the only distro I run (except a little XP for my gaming addiction when it hits).

This is probably a good time to just say thank you to everyone big and small who makes Gentoo run. I assume no one gets paid and does this because they like/love to and not for riches and fame ;) . So thank you and keep up the good work ... even with some of the little bumps in the road.


this.

well said bobspencer ! :)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kernelOfTruth wrote:
bobspencer123 wrote:
Although most of the technical underpinnings of Diego's blog go above and beyond my knowledge of Gentoo and how a distro works (I'm just a user not a dealer :) ) It does appear that this is definitely a situation that has probably unreasonably escalated. I wonder who is in "charge" of these situations. In my personal job this appears like 3 high level employees who have a fundamental disagreement over how to handle something with no one person or persons who are able or willing to drop the hammer and just make a decision. I think part of the beauty of linux distro's and open source in general is that there is a certain sense of freedom of decision making but this beauty can turn ugly when a project needs unity of direction to succeed and there is no one to clearly seize control of a situation.

I hope that Diego stays and the issues with the two other developers works itself out because I LOVE GENTOO and would hate to see one of the biggest contributors leave. I have tried many distro's over the past 5-6 years but once I tried gentoo I have never not had it installed on at least one of my computers. And for the past 2-3 years it is the only distro I run (except a little XP for my gaming addiction when it hits).

This is probably a good time to just say thank you to everyone big and small who makes Gentoo run. I assume no one gets paid and does this because they like/love to and not for riches and fame ;) . So thank you and keep up the good work ... even with some of the little bumps in the road.


this.

well said bobspencer ! :)

++

We need some sort of disaster before people understand that we need some rules and structure.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:'(
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icer wrote:
we need some rules and structure.

We have those, tho they could sometimes be enforced more strongly. But in his frustration he chose not to use these at all. If QA needs improvement (and I agree it does), then walking away is not helping.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, did he actually decide to leave? From my interpretation, he's still wobbling...

Quote:
Yesterday I snapped and declared my intent to resign from Gentoo together with stopping the tinderbox and leaving the use of Gentoo either
...
So here you go, in a nutshell, why my preservation instinct right now is telling me to flee. I’m not sure yet if I’ll outright flee or just give it time for the situation is addressed and then decide.


Also, didn't he already leave once, some years ago? Edit: He did.
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Icer
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Icer wrote:
we need some rules and structure.

We have those, tho they could sometimes be enforced more strongly. But in his frustration he chose not to use these at all. If QA needs improvement (and I agree it does), then walking away is not helping.

Very good. I too hope Diego will continue as Gentoo developer.

What he has described in his 'long ' posts should be clear case if they are true. I'm talking about the careless bumps of ebuilds that the developer X does not even himself use. Clearly this kind of cases call for clear rules. I'd say that all developers should belong to some specific team, what ever interests them, and be allowed to make commits only on the ebuilds that team is maintaining. Now tell me this is more or less true already?

I've been occasionally guilty of impatiently whining for quicker stabilization of packages myself too but the cases Diego describe can be dangerous. Not only because of application security but they can break a perfectly working system.

I appreciate the effort that the devs put on Gentoo in order to keep it reasonably up to date keeping it secure and well documented. I hope you continue to do so in the future and remember all three things I mentioned. Thank you.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icer wrote:
What he has described in his 'long ' posts should be clear case if they are true. I'm talking about the careless bumps of ebuilds that the developer X does not even himself use. Clearly this kind of cases call for clear rules. I'd say that all developers should belong to some specific team, what ever interests them, and be allowed to make commits only on the ebuilds that team is maintaining. Now tell me this is more or less true already?


Yes, there's herds, and they generally stick to their own stuff. Then there's maintainers who look after their own stuff.

There are more exceptions to the rules though, than the rules themselves. All kinds of exceptions can happen -- developers go AWOL, fixes are minor QA issues, etc.

The biggest variable though is often developers themselves. Some don't care if you touch their packages, some do.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard time, i'm so thankful for all the good work diego has done for gentoo.

I agree with his thinking about the issue, i disagree how he handle it:

1/ basically, he think someone break the rules (and i do think he is right !)
2/ but when he could apply the rule to let #1 be changed, he just refuse for a dark (for me) reason. If i understood correctly he think that 3 devs could watch his case, but only one "denis" may have power to change it, and that's where i find it "shadowed" reason, i just don't know why he couldn't trust this denis's verdict and so just drop to ask him to solve the issue, already knowing the result for him.

Still, i could be wrong, english isn't my native language, but if i understood correctly.
- Assuming only 1 of the 3 could watch and fix the problem seems a little strange, i'm pretty sure if these 3 devs are "devrels" or something with a status to solve problems with devs vs devs, even that problem touch a skill/task/competence of only one (denis), i'm still pretty sure he could submit to the 3 devsrel for viewing, or even if he doubt that the competent devrel would be fair because of a reason, then it's another issue that should auto-imply competence/skill... of one of/or the 2 others.
- I don't find strange that a rule doesn't exist for a case (one case is dev bumping a version number of a package diego's own without notifying him first). If a simple (by simple, i mean logic) rule as "A dev should warn/email/ask for permission another dev to modify an ebuild that dev is maintaining" doesn't exist, it's just maybe that it's so logic that everyone assume everyone would apply it without the need of a rule. This is kind of rule when created that everyone would say "Pfff, how dumb to set a rule for that!", so i'm not surprise that elementary/logic/basic rule like that case doesn't exist, and i suppose that's why devrels are for: correct the hole in rules as you can't create zillion rules for zillion cases.

I'm really sad that diego choose to quit to solve the issue, because it will solve his issue, but will leave the issue still open for gentoo (even if diego will avoid the problem, the problem will remain, if no devrel are aware of it, nothing will change and gentoo might suffer again with another dev that might also lost faith and quit too being bore also by those 2 guys practice)
There's also a small chance that those guys were doing wrong, but were trying to do right at first (misunderstood a rule, not thinking it's an issue for them...). On the very end those devs could be ass, but we're all humans, we're good most of the time but bad sometimes. Many guys exist like that at work/life, we don't quit our job/town for that, or i suppose we will never stay somewhere a long time, as moving away will just let you move away from one ass to find another one where you've just moved.

As i said before http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-541247-postdays-0-postorder-asc-highlight-diego-start-150.html that's a big lost for gentoo, and i hope he will change his mind (maybe after a break).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the problem of Gentoo, it seems that it's like the changing of the season, sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's not.

I hope that Diego comes back really soon.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like he might go to funtoo:


Code:
@flameeyes I'm confident we can work thru the break/fix vs. "proper fix" issues we had before.

@flameeyes when you have your own tree, you can mitigate some of the upstream issues and have a more peaceful job

@flameeyes fork the tree, keep doing QA, we'll accept your changes and mask upstream crap you want masked.

http://twitter.com/funtoo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting... Do changes from Funtoo flow downstream to Gentoo?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe some in the past, like OpenRc for example.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

--

Last edited by 96140 on Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
AM088 wrote:
Interesting... Do changes from Funtoo flow downstream to Gentoo?

That's upstream to us, as we're the upstream from which they mooch.

Yep, that's what I meant.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
Kasumi_Ninja wrote:
Looks like he might go to funtoo

You're reading way too much into a few twitter remarks.

Just read his latest blog post:
Quote:
And for those who wonder, no I’m definitely not going to work along with Robbins, unless he’d be paying me to do that, and a lot as well; simply because I don’t think we could ever agree with what QA means: while the Gentoo Ruby team was pouring work for Ruby 1.9, Robbins thought that the idea was to just make Ruby 1.9 the default. Great move indeed.


nightmorph wrote:
Nowhere has Diego said he's ditching Gentoo to work on any other distribution.

He did suggest that, e.g. http://identi.ca/notice/22732498
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonsaikitten is a badman. He hates mono with a passion as well. But he does have a point that packages just lag in gentoo and their representative herds arnt getting it done - Take PHP-5.3 its been over a year now... and I know of 3 ppl (well ok they work at the same company so doesn't really count) that are now considering pulling their gentoo dev boxes because they are really starting to need php-5.3.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
bonsaikitten is a badman. He hates mono with a passion as well. But he does have a point that packages just lag in gentoo and their representative herds arnt getting it done - Take PHP-5.3 its been over a year now... and I know of 3 ppl (well ok they work at the same company so doesn't really count) that are now considering pulling their gentoo dev boxes because they are really starting to need php-5.3.


PHP herd needs more people just like all the other herds.

I, personally, am tired of overextending myself to catch up with other people's needs. I'm starting to drop support on stuff that I can't handle anymore so that people really do see that if no one steps up, it just plain doesn't get done.

We need new blood, on a regular basis.

I still don't understand what keeps people from signing up (other than people whining that "it's probably too hard"), and I've never once heard of someone who honestly tried to become a dev, that didn't.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried recruiting?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:


I still don't understand what keeps people from signing up (other than people whining that "it's probably too hard"), and I've never once heard of someone who honestly tried to become a dev, that didn't.


You want to know my reason? stupid internal politics of Gentoo and the Bitching (FFS go have a backread of -dev ml for the last year, some of the behavior is sickening! esp around a couple of petty GLEPS *cough* GLEP55 *cough*) a couple of dev's have offered to mentor me but I have just said no.
I would rather help the users, submit bugs, fix the odd ebuild here and there than deal with the kindergarden that is posing as an ivorytower of gentoo dev's
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah the petty bickering and arrogance tends to put people off, too.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
beandog wrote:


I still don't understand what keeps people from signing up (other than people whining that "it's probably too hard"), and I've never once heard of someone who honestly tried to become a dev, that didn't.


You want to know my reason? stupid internal politics of Gentoo and the Bitching (FFS go have a backread of -dev ml for the last year, some of the behavior is sickening! esp around a couple of petty GLEPS *cough* GLEP55 *cough*) a couple of dev's have offered to mentor me but I have just said no.
I would rather help the users, submit bugs, fix the odd ebuild here and there than deal with the kindergarden that is posing as an ivorytower of gentoo dev's


Yah, I hear that one too ... I just ignore it, though, and I manage to get all my work done fine without any issues.

But, thanks for helping out, it is much appreciated. :)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:

I, personally, am tired of overextending myself to catch up with other people's needs. I'm starting to drop support on stuff that I can't handle anymore so that people really do see that if no one steps up, it just plain doesn't get done.


Ha!

Well said, and exactly what I just said today to Halcy0n at IRC. We should just plain mask and lastrite all the broken crap instead of trying to fix everything.

I'd rather have clean and lean tree, than broken and bloated one.
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