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w1n73rmu7e
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 Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: Mobile Dev: iPhone is new IE6 |
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| The Guardian wrote: | | On the flip side of the debate about whether Flash is ill, in rude health, or simply untroubled by Apple's wilful refusal to countenance it on the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad, we have an analysis from Peter-Paul Koch, a "mobile platform strategist, consultant and trainer" who says (with plenty of swearing to boot, if you're in filter territory) that the iPhone is the Internet Explorer 6 de nos jours. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| TFA wrote: | | don't develop exclusively for it |
Problem is, people have a tendency to not be forward-looking. An advantage is that the market is still new.
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jdmulloy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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I whole heartedly agree. Most iPhone sites work 90%-100% on my Pre but some like m.ingdirect.com don't give me the iPhone site because I don't have an iPhone user agent. There's a patch to spoof it, but that would just make the problem worse since they would think I'm using an iPhone.
m.ingdirect.com looks like crap on my Pre. Tried it on my brother's iPod touch and it's much better.
screenshot
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mdeininger
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | TFA wrote: | | don't develop exclusively for it |
Problem is, people have a tendency to not be forward-looking. An advantage is that the market is still new. |
aye...
actually i do wonder what the problem with lacking flash really is. for most intents and purposes, it's not half bad, and regular sites that are properly written work like a charm on the iphone. and the iphone's capabilities are not even close to being as bad internet explorer 6 OR 7.
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big dave
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| i just have to say that if you haven't read TFA, you should. this is the kind of "kick a tiger in the face, punch a lion in the jaw" writing that is gold. and it's not just because he rips on apple. shit, 5 years ago, we weren't writing shit in flash unless it was button+slider video/audio because flash penetration was only 60something percent. anyone who says that it's safe to test only on a browser that has even less traffic AND market share than that, is not worthy of the title of mobile developer. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| mdeininger wrote: | | i do wonder what the problem with lacking flash really is. for most intents and purposes, it's not half bad |
The problem isn't Flash itself (for me anyway), but how it is used. If I want to be at a certain depth of a site for convenience, I don't want to have to wade through some ridiculous "rich media experience" every time I visit. I want no animated "movie scenes" or whatever else that went over well in some focus group. I want a fast and easy to use interface to the content, not a mix of the two (unless appropriate, such as a 3D rotating model of a car I'm configuring).
But, that's for regular browsing, not phone browsing.
| big dave wrote: | | i just have to say that if you haven't read TFA, you should. this is the kind of "kick a tiger in the face, punch a lion in the jaw" writing that is gold. |
Hmm... I started it but didn't care for it. Maybe I didn't get far enough to the gold.
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w1n73rmu7e
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:13 am Post subject: |
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He's referring to the original blog post, in case you didn't realize.
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big dave
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:18 am Post subject: |
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this |
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jdmulloy
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esper
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:41 am Post subject: |
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I hope they keep flash off the iphone. Force devs to continue with looking at html 5 with its neato capabilities so I don't have to purchase a suite to work on future apps.
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Zepp
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Is he bitching about the iphones version of webkit in that it does not follow standards well or something? Or is he just complaining about stuff like jdmulloy said where developers make their page only work with the iphone even when other phones can render it? The latter is hardly a problem with the iPhone, so I am just curious what exactly the complaint is?
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w1n73rmu7e
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Zepp wrote: | | Is he bitching about the iphones version of webkit in that it does not follow standards well or something? Or is he just complaining about stuff like jdmulloy said where developers make their page only work with the iphone even when other phones can render it? The latter is hardly a problem with the iPhone, so I am just curious what exactly the complaint is? |
RTFA. Just because a site renders correctly on the iPhone and looks all nice in Apple's UI doesn't mean it works on other phones. And when Apple's marketshare of smartphones is miniscule, there's absolutely no reason to be pandering to the iPhone other than the fact that most web developers "have an iPhone up their asses".
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jdmulloy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Zepp wrote: | | Is he bitching about the iphones version of webkit in that it does not follow standards well or something? Or is he just complaining about stuff like jdmulloy said where developers make their page only work with the iphone even when other phones can render it? The latter is hardly a problem with the iPhone, so I am just curious what exactly the complaint is? |
It's not so much anything technical as much as it is, web developers being lazy and not even thinking about anyone but iPhone users. I hate all the tech shit that doesn't follow standards and just assumes that everyone's a damn lemming who follows the crowd.
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big dave
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| jdmulloy wrote: | | Why does Europe get better Cell Phone and Internet service then us? We invented the fucking Internet, we deserve the best broadband. |
europe is 1/3 the size and 2x the population. population density is a major factor in all utility level services. |
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jdmulloy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| big dave wrote: | | jdmulloy wrote: | | Why does Europe get better Cell Phone and Internet service then us? We invented the fucking Internet, we deserve the best broadband. |
europe is 1/3 the size and 2x the population. population density is a major factor in all utility level services. |
I understand this. However I'm still sick of our telcos.
I hate technology. Why can't all this stuff just work? It's 2010, I should be able to get 10MB/s down and UP from anywhere by now. I WANT MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Kenji Miyamoto
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| jdmulloy wrote: | | big dave wrote: | | jdmulloy wrote: | | Why does Europe get better Cell Phone and Internet service then us? We invented the fucking Internet, we deserve the best broadband. |
europe is 1/3 the size and 2x the population. population density is a major factor in all utility level services. |
I understand this. However I'm still sick of our telcos.
I hate technology. Why can't all this stuff just work? It's 2010, I should be able to get 10MB/s down and UP from anywhere by now. I WANT MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Just isn't feasible due to population density. The telcos are taking the average population density of the areas they cover and that includes the rural midwest.
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mdeininger
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | mdeininger wrote: | | i do wonder what the problem with lacking flash really is. for most intents and purposes, it's not half bad |
The problem isn't Flash itself (for me anyway), but how it is used. If I want to be at a certain depth of a site for convenience, I don't want to have to wade through some ridiculous "rich media experience" every time I visit. I want no animated "movie scenes" or whatever else that went over well in some focus group. I want a fast and easy to use interface to the content, not a mix of the two (unless appropriate, such as a 3D rotating model of a car I'm configuring).
But, that's for regular browsing, not phone browsing. |
i think i totally agree with that. personally, i think it's OK to add some flash content if it's the right medium for what you're presenting, but mostly i'm just looking for info in the form of (hopefully) elaborate text and maybe some pictures if they add value. i just don't see how flash would possibly add value to that, except maybe to spice up the UI a bit... which usually isn't done well enough either to warrant the original use of flash. and if you just did it well to begin with, then it'll usually work everywhere, regardless of browser (i'm often surprised how well my sites and webapps work across different browsers, even things like lynx...).
of course, there's the other problem: a lot of places these days don't actually *have* proper content to display, so they often end up substituting a fancy design (in flash or with wicked ajax tricks or what have you) for content.
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Kenji Miyamoto
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mdeininger wrote: | | personally, i think it's OK to add some flash content if it's the right medium for what you're presenting, but mostly i'm just looking for info in the form of (hopefully) elaborate text and maybe some pictures if they add value. i just don't see how flash would possibly add value to that, except maybe to spice up the UI a bit... which usually isn't done well enough either to warrant the original use of flash. and if you just did it well to begin with, then it'll usually work everywhere, regardless of browser (i'm often surprised how well my sites and webapps work across different browsers, even things like lynx...). |
You know, I feel the same way about the fancy compositing window managers out there too. Too much overhead for something that gets in the way of what you're trying to do.
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mdeininger
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | mdeininger wrote: | | personally, i think it's OK to add some flash content if it's the right medium for what you're presenting, but mostly i'm just looking for info in the form of (hopefully) elaborate text and maybe some pictures if they add value. i just don't see how flash would possibly add value to that, except maybe to spice up the UI a bit... which usually isn't done well enough either to warrant the original use of flash. and if you just did it well to begin with, then it'll usually work everywhere, regardless of browser (i'm often surprised how well my sites and webapps work across different browsers, even things like lynx...). |
You know, I feel the same way about the fancy compositing window managers out there too. Too much overhead for something that gets in the way of what you're trying to do. |
yeah, same here. i'm using awesome and wmii (depending on whether the machine is multi head or single head), simply because of that...
i do admit that lately i'm using xcompmgr since i kinda dig the real transparency effect in urxvt, but then again the hardware's usually idling as it is and it's not really slowing down vim, opera, any movie player or the window managers i'm using  .
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Zepp
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| w1n73rmu7e wrote: | | Zepp wrote: | | Is he bitching about the iphones version of webkit in that it does not follow standards well or something? Or is he just complaining about stuff like jdmulloy said where developers make their page only work with the iphone even when other phones can render it? The latter is hardly a problem with the iPhone, so I am just curious what exactly the complaint is? |
RTFA. Just because a site renders correctly on the iPhone and looks all nice in Apple's UI doesn't mean it works on other phones. And when Apple's marketshare of smartphones is miniscule, there's absolutely no reason to be pandering to the iPhone other than the fact that most web developers "have an iPhone up their asses". |
Only had time to skim it. Why does it not work on other phones?
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Kenji Miyamoto
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Zepp wrote: | | Only had time to skim it. Why does it not work on other phones? |
I think one reason has to do with ECMAScript not being supported as well on other phones, or how many sites use absolute placement and sizes so screens that aren't the same resolution don't display everything perfectly.
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jdmulloy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Zepp wrote: | | w1n73rmu7e wrote: | | Zepp wrote: | | Is he bitching about the iphones version of webkit in that it does not follow standards well or something? Or is he just complaining about stuff like jdmulloy said where developers make their page only work with the iphone even when other phones can render it? The latter is hardly a problem with the iPhone, so I am just curious what exactly the complaint is? |
RTFA. Just because a site renders correctly on the iPhone and looks all nice in Apple's UI doesn't mean it works on other phones. And when Apple's marketshare of smartphones is miniscule, there's absolutely no reason to be pandering to the iPhone other than the fact that most web developers "have an iPhone up their asses". |
Only had time to skim it. Why does it not work on other phones? |
Often the iPhone version of a site will work on other phones, but they won't give it to you if you don't have the iPhone user agent.
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Zepp
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| jdmulloy wrote: | | Zepp wrote: | | w1n73rmu7e wrote: | | Zepp wrote: | | Is he bitching about the iphones version of webkit in that it does not follow standards well or something? Or is he just complaining about stuff like jdmulloy said where developers make their page only work with the iphone even when other phones can render it? The latter is hardly a problem with the iPhone, so I am just curious what exactly the complaint is? |
RTFA. Just because a site renders correctly on the iPhone and looks all nice in Apple's UI doesn't mean it works on other phones. And when Apple's marketshare of smartphones is miniscule, there's absolutely no reason to be pandering to the iPhone other than the fact that most web developers "have an iPhone up their asses". |
Only had time to skim it. Why does it not work on other phones? |
Often the iPhone version of a site will work on other phones, but they won't give it to you if you don't have the iPhone user agent. |
oh, that is just dumb. absolute placement sounds shit too. I was curious if there were rendering differences or some sort of break in standards.
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