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NotQuiteSane
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Will someone explain... Reply with quote

...Exactly how Gentoo is so difficult?


I've been using linux since the mid 90's and have never found an easier version than gentoo. Type a simple command and go. How exactly is that difficult?

Take in contrast windows 7. A freind bought a new laptop with it, brings it over to my house. My router is set to use only static ip's. So we boot it up, it sees the router just fine. However, there is no option in windows to assign an ip address. We struggled with it for 30 minutes before I finally asked if all he wanted was to go online, pop in my systemrescue live-usb (gentoo based for those who don't know), boot, manually configure networking, load X and firefox. All in about 5 minutes from power on to loading google to test browser.

Again, exactly how is Gentoo difficult? There's documentation for almost every thing you can do with it, works on (possibly) more hardware than any other distro (excepting perhaps debian), uses a easy to use package management system and simple text files for configuring it.

Office is just as bad. It used to be the problem was everything is intergrated into Windows. Now it's all intergrated into office. Where as in Linix I can have Mutt for my mail, ABIword for office compatible word processor, OOo for another WP and powerpoint compatible software, with "easy" Windows, you must buy a $400 package that also includes programs that i'll never use. And that damm ribbon makes me wonder exactly what drugs MS provides for it's employees

The same with making software controlable only by gui apps. MS does this, Ubuntu seems to be controled via gnome apps, SuSE via KDE...

please explain how clicking though 5 layers of menus and boxes is faster than typing one command and pressing the enter key?

Don't get me wrong here, I am a former SuSE user, and appreciate them financially supporting KDE (and it's workers), and I appreciate the new users ubuntu has bought linux. But I hate DE's, and cring everytime I find someone equating Ubuntu with linux (although not as bad as when I hear "My gentoo...") or worse assuming that the (ubuntu|gentoo|redhat|apple|windows) way is the only way and instrutions for one is interchangeable with all. It's becoming all to common to see something like "to install this program in linux open a terminal and type 'sudo apt-get install foobar'"

Gentoo is easy to use, highly documented, and customizable so that every user can set the look and feel to how s/he wants it. No other operating system comes close. Again, how is that difficult?

NQS
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Will someone explain... Reply with quote

NotQuiteSane wrote:
However, there is no option in windows to assign an ip address.

Of *course* there is. A few minutes' Googling will show you how, as with most computer-related problems.

Strewth. Windows-bashing is the norm here, but get your facts straight 8O
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I upgraded my dual-boot box from XP to Win7 last night. Found the network settings easily enough.

The 2 things I would like to be able to do at the moment, but haven't found out how yet:
- Get my Compro K300 Windows Media Center remote to work with smplayer
- Change the color scheme of the non-Aero basic windows theme without having to change every color individually
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is very user-friendly, but it is not noob-friendly. There is a certain learning curve, you have to find out how the system works, before you can enjoy its superior user-friendliness.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it took you 30 minutes to figure out how to set an static ip to an ethernet card thru windows menu. And you didn't success.

And you think gentoo is easier ? Why do people don't know linux commands when you can just type "ifconfig eth0 192.168.1.1" and it's done !

Well, maybe because people don't know that command, and "maybe" because even you, you're a noob, no offense here, but you can also change an ip in windows by command line in 1s.
As you see, difficulty is base not on the os, but on your own knowledge. And for most users that even don't wants to know what an harddisk is, windows is easier to install, maybe kde or gnome are as easier to use than windows/osX but linux generally not, specially for drivers, and gentoo and similar distributions where you need to know everything are the worst.

My niece have a computer with gentoo, she don't even know what emerge is, she don't know how to make something work, but she loves her gentoo (well, gnome) and she don't want to try anything else because it works (and if it don't, she call me to fix it, then she just keep going without wishing to know what was wrong/how to solve...). She use gentoo because, me, i know gentoo and so i put it on her computer, just the way people brought computers where windows is install.

Even the choice is a pain for most people: when you see that you can use kde or gnome (i limit the samples to this two), where you can make a choice most people will just see in front of the screen : "You can use bleurg or biplashto?". If you ask them the question they will just click on one or the other and start use it.

Think about why do most people use internet explorer: is it the best ? is the fastest? do it comply the most with standard...
No, people don't care, it is there and it just works if they click on it. If something went wrong, well, it's just a computer, full of bug that's all.
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NotQuiteSane
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:22 am    Post subject: Re: Will someone explain... Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
NotQuiteSane wrote:
However, there is no option in windows to assign an ip address.

Of *course* there is. A few minutes' Googling will show you how, as with most computer-related problems.

Strewth. Windows-bashing is the norm here, but get your facts straight 8O


MS claims win 7 "just works" so I shouldn't have to Google. and i should be able to change it from the same page (or link to) that shows the interface (the page that comes up when you click icon on lower right)

OTOH, I do believe i found the problem. and it's not MS's fault if my hypothesis is correct: what are the signs of a dying router? wired transfers work, but wireless (all points are 54Mb) may be as fast as 1Mb. takes days to copy a 650mb iso over. connection drops out, plug/unplug doesn't fix it (DDwrt), have to ssh in and reboot, then will work for a few hours...

yngwin wrote:
Gentoo is very user-friendly, but it is not noob-friendly. There is a certain learning curve, you have to find out how the system works, before you can enjoy its superior user-friendliness.


I disagree. It is noob friendly in the fact that it does not assume the inner workings are beyond a noobs ability to learn, and thereby hiding it away. all the information is easy to find.

krinn wrote:
Well, maybe because people don't know that command, and "maybe" because even you, you're a noob, no offense here, but you can also change an ip in windows by command line in 1s.


Again as above, if MS advertizes Win7 "just works", then maybe it should?

krinn wrote:
As you see, difficulty is base not on the os, but on your own knowledge.


agreed. my argument is with the amount of documentation available, it's easier to find the answers to Gentoo problems than to windows problems.

krinn wrote:
And for most users that even don't wants to know what an harddisk is, windows is easier to install, maybe kde or gnome are as easier to use than windows/osX but linux generally not, specially for drivers, and gentoo and similar distributions where you need to know everything are the worst.


disagree. Take two people who have never seen a computer before. give one a Gentoo CD, the other a windows CD. I argue that the person installing windows will not have any easier time that the Gentoo installation. in fact they may have it harder, as many of the required drivers have to be tracked down, whereas the Linux kernel supports a large number of same drivers, organized into one place.

but I'm not arguing here if Gentoo is easier than windows, I'm arguing that is is no where near as complex as popular myths claims it to be.

krinn wrote:
Even the choice is a pain for most people: when you see that you can use kde or gnome (i limit the samples to this two), where you can make a choice most people will just see in front of the screen : "You can use bleurg or biplashto?". If you ask them the question they will just click on one or the other and start use it.


Personally I hate crap on my desktop, so I use fluxbox. but that brings up what i like most about Linux: choice. what I want and what you want may differ, but we can have it how we want, not a "one size fits all"

but when a freind gets a new account on my network, I send them to here, and ask which they'd like to try.

most like lxde. I've had to veto kde as it brings up a conflict with a program i use for school and i don't want to find a workaround/alternate

krinn wrote:
If something went wrong, well, it's just a computer, full of bug that's all.


That attitude is why MS products are such crap. "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

good enough never is, and never will be.

Sorry it took me so long to reply. I've had a whole week go shitty, from a dead netbook last thorsday, freind of a freind being assulted by her roommate and me being called on to help her move, truck requiring i remove entire axle to replace starter (and in snow), router (probably) dying, cumulating with a tooth ache so painful I contemplated shooting myself in the foot as it would be less painful....

NQS
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is difficult because handing a disk to a little old lady that boots in to a command line and saying "There... you're all set! That'll be $65.00 thanks!" just doesn't work.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Gentoo is very user-friendly, but it is not noob-friendly. There is a certain learning curve, you have to find out how the system works, before you can enjoy its superior user-friendliness.


I still remember learning DOS, OS/2 and even Windows 3.x back in the days...

There's always a learning curve for any proper software. Not sure exactly when it changed to the way that everything should just be "point and click", that's like for retarded people ;-)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think user friendliness depends on your personal knowledge. i remember the first time i used gentoo. It was a pain for me because i used windows before and it was completely different i had to read through thousands of (man)pages before i was able to do things which took me before just a few clicks. Now i am much faster with gentoo and like to manage my system the "gentoo way" =)

But you have to be open for new/different things. And win7 brings some good improvements compared to vista/xp...
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Will someone explain... Reply with quote

I don't think the OP understand what "just works" means. When the other people said that you could easily change the IP in a second you say "But it should 'just work'" implying you think you shouldn't have to change the IP? There's no OS that can reach inside your brain to ask you what IP addresses you decided to use.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Will someone explain... Reply with quote

slycordinator wrote:
I don't think the OP understand what "just works" means. When the other people said that you could easily change the IP in a second you say "But it should 'just work'" implying you think you shouldn't have to change the IP? There's no OS that can reach inside your brain to ask you what IP addresses you decided to use.


MS says it "just works", not me.

in win 7 (from memory, freind isn't here and i don't own a copy), if you click icon in lower right it brings up info page, but there is no provision there to change the adress of the card.

instead you must do start > controlpanel > Network and Internet > Network and Sharing Center > Manage network connections and then entering the info for the address.

NQS
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Will someone explain... Reply with quote

NotQuiteSane wrote:
Take two people who have never seen a computer before. give one a Gentoo CD, the other a windows CD. I argue that the person installing windows will not have any easier time that the Gentoo installation.


lol seriously...

windows install "blabhalbahblah" -> click next -> "blilbiiblib" -> click next -> "you must accept license because we own the world..." -> click yes -> click next -> "blabhalbha" -> next -> "blibliblib" -> next -> "blibaoboalibo" -> next -> "Now we will reboot the computer because we loves reboot" -> (This time user have the choice) : <Click Yes to reboot> <Click Accept to reboot> <Click Next to reboot>. Install done.

I won't even speak about gentoo install nightmare (still for a noob): just check the installation forum for a peek.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Will someone explain... Reply with quote

NotQuiteSane wrote:
in win 7 (from memory, freind isn't here and i don't own a copy), if you click icon in lower right it brings up info page, but there is no provision there to change the adress of the card.
You can open the Network and Sharing Center directly when clicking on the icon for the device. The option appears both when you left and right-click on the device.

NotQuiteSane wrote:
instead you must do start > controlpanel > Network and Internet > Network and Sharing Center > Manage network connections and then entering the info for the address.
Or again, you instead:
Left-click device -> Open Network and Sharing Center
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Window is entirely too friendly. The GUI has been given an opengl make over. But the security measures that need to be taken for a complete noob are well above the average persons opinion of "acceptable". I think windows 7 and the number 386 comes to mind. It breaks the app$ that users want (including peripherals). It gives nothing.

Eliminate data storage and wiring. What do you have? TackyGL and a serious waste of time.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augury wrote:
Window is entirely too friendly. The GUI has been given an opengl make over. But the security measures that need to be taken for a complete noob are well above the average persons opinion of "acceptable". I think windows 7 and the number 386 comes to mind. It breaks the app$ that users want (including peripherals). It gives nothing.

Eliminate data storage and wiring. What do you have? TackyGL and a serious waste of time.


Actually, I believe that the GUI uses DirectX 9, which is a Microsoft's imitation of OpenGL because they suffer from NIH syndrome.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NIH syndrome?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augury wrote:
NIH syndrome?


NIH = Not Invented Here
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shining Arcanine wrote:
augury wrote:
Window is entirely too friendly. The GUI has been given an opengl make over. But the security measures that need to be taken for a complete noob are well above the average persons opinion of "acceptable". I think windows 7 and the number 386 comes to mind. It breaks the app$ that users want (including peripherals). It gives nothing.

Eliminate data storage and wiring. What do you have? TackyGL and a serious waste of time.


Actually, I believe that the GUI uses DirectX 9, which is a Microsoft's imitation of OpenGL because they suffer from NIH syndrome.


splitting hair, the fact is the GUI went of 3D to try to sell (I swear there is a BBC interview with B.Gates a year before Vista came out where he stated he regretted not going to a subscription-bases system. now ppl want clear difference to entice them to upgrade => visuals)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Shining Arcanine wrote:
augury wrote:
Window is entirely too friendly. The GUI has been given an opengl make over. But the security measures that need to be taken for a complete noob are well above the average persons opinion of "acceptable". I think windows 7 and the number 386 comes to mind. It breaks the app$ that users want (including peripherals). It gives nothing.

Eliminate data storage and wiring. What do you have? TackyGL and a serious waste of time.


Actually, I believe that the GUI uses DirectX 9, which is a Microsoft's imitation of OpenGL because they suffer from NIH syndrome.


splitting hair, the fact is the GUI went of 3D to try to sell (I swear there is a BBC interview with B.Gates a year before Vista came out where he stated he regretted not going to a subscription-bases system. now ppl want clear difference to entice them to upgrade => visuals)


That seems to correspond to what the IE team was telling me when I was in high school in that new versions of their web browser needed to give people clear incentives to upgrade or they would stick with the old versions. That was apparently why they spent more work on their GUIs than they spent on standards support. :/
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really. For Aero to work, you need an OpenGL capable gfx card. So Microsoft somewhat "ditched" their own Direct3D for OpenGL. (At least on vista, haven't looked into that on Windows 7.)

And yes, Windows 7 does indeed "just works", and you can set the IP address with "that Icon down there". :roll:
I reinstalled my machine a couple of weeks ago (From Windows Vista Ultimate to Windows 7 Pro) and it was annoyingly fast and painless. I never ever expected that MS would finally publish a Windows version that really works at once, but they did. Of course nobody in this universe will be able to publish an OS that a) works for really everybody and b) needs less than a dozen DVDs to accomplis a). Too many variables out there.

But before anyone things I am advertising Windows 7 here, no. I like my Gentoo with KDE-4 better. But some of the games I like are too much hassle to put up on Linux(+wine) and Windows 7 Pro was a birthday present. ;)

As for the thread start: It is difficult to learn all the basics during the manual install. Once you know the basics, Gentoo _is_ alot easier to use than every other Linux I have seen so far. (Horror rises in me when I think about having to install package foo on one of our Debian-Lenny Servers...)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a lot of trouble with Windows 7 but finally got it working. There was a learning curve on how to click throught all the windows or use shell commands. Most of the young guys like assistants (I guess), I prefer to have everything in one place or 1-2 clicks away.

To avoid the assistants or wizards you would have to learn the shell commands or Power Shell :idea:

There is nothing about Windows 7 that just works. It is the same as in all OS, get your hardware working and set up the system services including network

//edit: little hint, the mmc is still the same as before and you find everything where you expect it. Plus a few extra features :)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Gentoo is very user-friendly, but it is not noob-friendly. There is a certain learning curve, you have to find out how the system works, before you can enjoy its superior user-friendliness.


++

Not much to add beyond that. It's the easiest, once you know how.
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