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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:12 am    Post subject: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

Forked from this thread. Way off topic.

steblublu wrote:
Actually, I'm not trolling. I use Gentoo on my laptop and my web server.
Hmm... 2 posts, both in this thread about being tired of hearing complaints/whining/bashing (whatever you want to call it) against MS.

Quote:
I am just tired of people repeating the same anti-microsoft mantra just because it's "in style" to do so.
Dont' read it. The thread was about a potential problem that MS could cause to open source video drivers. A very real threat.
MS also said the internet was a fad and not going to be important. I'm not convinved they won't try to do something.

Quote:
Apple users used to do this when they were trying to "build community". Intel sucks, they claimed. maybe Intel does, but I happen to love my 2.4ghz pentium. They can keep their slow motorolla's.
Good for the Apple community. I personally don't care for Intel because of their price premium. I don't buy Levi's either.
I'd bet Apple is still better than Intel with Photoshop. Just a guess, I've not used either. Not important anyway.

Quote:
The reason microsoft has a "monopoly" is because they were the first, and yes, the ONLY operating system to offer something to the pc user.
First in most cases does not mean best.

Quote:
Much has been made of their bullying business tactics. But 99% of business operates this way. Apple, Sun, Oracle..etc. are not the choir boys of the industry. As a consultant, I have worked with most of them.
Apple does not have a monopoly. Neither does Sun or Oracle. I don't care if they are 'tough' and 'hardball'
business tactics. MS has gone beyond that, creating a monopoly and forcing other alternatives out the door.
The fact the MS has forced large companies like Gateway, Compaq and Dell (among others) to not offer
other OS on their machines through licensing agreements is where I have problems. They have done this
with alot of software.

Quote:
Yes, yes... Microsoft does have a monopoly. But this is not always a bad thing in industry. Take a look at what happened to the quality of service in the telecomm industry when Bell Telephone was split up...
- the baby Bell's have not been able to match the quality of service
- phone bills and operating costs have risen far beyond expectation
- the recent telecomm meltdown
Apples and oranges. I still only have 1 choice for LOCAL phone service. As far as I'm concerned, this is still a monopoly. Just
a different set of CEO's and VP's making alot of money instead of 1 set. Example: Let's assume MS didn't force OS/2 out of the
market. I could still go to the store and buy either Windows or OS/2. I can't choose a different LOCAL phone company. I don't
think the recent problems with Worldcomm are relevant. That is a corrupt leadership and poor business decision problem.

Quote:
What about Heinz? Their "Heinz Ketchup" has a strangle hold on the industry, yet I've never heard anyone complain that they are a monopoly.
I can still go to the grocery store and buy at least one other competitor's product. Ever hear of Hunt's? I think its awful, but it is
still available. I don't consume alot of ketchup, but I'm pretty sure there are some smaller brands available to me. I personally
prefer the 'burnt' flavor of Heinz, so I see no need to try others.

Quote:
Johnson & Johnson? They have hundreds and hundreds of products on the market all of which they have paid to have displayed the most prominantly on market shelves - yet I've never heard anyone saying that they suck because they have a monopoly.
If you're (meaning anyone) too lazy to look beyond the most prominantly displayed product
that is your problem. That doesn't mean they are the only products. I won't say I have no
Johnson & Johnson products in my house, but I can assure you, I avoid them. I prefer to
support companies that don't test products on animals, so I do research and find companies
that don't. Johnson & Johnson does not have a monopoly. I go to stores and buy competitors
products instead.

Quote:
I remeber when they were having the Microsoft court battles, a few of the "witnesses" actually claimed that Microsoft had irreperably damaged the software industry. They stated that software prices in the past 10 years had not come down in price - like the price of hardware had.
A demonstration of the poor lawsuit it was. That doesn't mean MS isn't a monopoly or doesn't engage in illegal business activities.

Quote:
Funny. 10 years ago the house I could buy for $100,000 now will cost me $180,000. It must be because Jimmy Carters "Habbitats" program! I think I'll sue.
Software and houses cannot be compared. Besidese, I don't care if their software hasn't come down in price.

Quote:
Like it or not, unix and linux have up until now "chosen" to remain a hacker's OS. and of course, we have done little in the past 10 years to change this fact. After all, it was nice to have our own OS. One that we could call our own.
Huh? The use for *nix has never been for desktop use. Only recently with the advent of Linux has it become an option. I think
the progress has been wonderful.

Quote:
The other guy (Apple), has chosen to only offer a totally proprietary product (both software, OS and hardware) for the past 20 years (other than the little 2 year hiccup they had where other vendors were able to release clones).
OK, so what? They also have a very small market.

Quote:
So then I hear joe linux trash Microsoft because they are a "monopoly",
They are a monopoly.

Quote:
and i hear them say that the Windows OS sucks.
An opinion, and by nature subjective. That does not make it invalid.

Quote:
Funny, but these are the same guys who are running KDE or Gnome (both of which are striving to be Windows clones).
Many probably do. Not that you were referring to me, but I do not. I use fluxbox.

Quote:
He is also running Evolution (a blatant Outlook knockoff).
Currently, I use Galeon for a browser to check my mail. I used Pegasus mail under Windows.

Quote:
KOffice, Star Office? very much trying to match MS Office functionality.
Match MS Office functionality? Well sortof. In order to gain users, any Office package *nix uses must
be as compatible as possible with MS. Otherwise, it will not function well to compete against the MS
monopoly. I wonder what would happen if there was an OPEN document standard. Let's even let MS
define it. If it were open, then any competitor could produce a product that wouldn't be shut out because
of their monopoly. The better product would win (as long as it didn't come bundled with the OS), or
several products would coexist. I still think the features of Word Perfect are far superior to that of MS
Office. My opinion. Because MS has a monopoly, Word Perfect and others aren't as viable an option.
Again, this goes to the closed document standards. I would be the first in line to cheer MS if they were
to do something like this. After cheering for them, I'd go across the street and buy Word Perfect though.
Because I think it is a better product, not because I had problems with the business practices of MS.

Quote:
Why is Microsoft such a threat to Linux?
For starters, they have been a threat to any other software product that has done well. OS/2, Apple, Lotus, Quicken (is Money
dominant yet?), FoxPro, Paradox. There are more.

Quote:
The truth is, it isnt. never has been. Never will be. Linux's audience has never been Microsoft's. Untill now.
That is why MS is a threat. As I demonstrated with the brief list of products.

Quote:
And it's Microsoft who should feel threatened. Not the linux community.
Well, Linux is a small threat. Unless MS does something to cripple linux. Hrm... let me think...
pushing for Digital Rights Management as a requirement in an OS? If MS gets their way,
linux would become illegal.

Quote:
Now that Linux seems to be moving into the mainstream, we will indeed see more people looking at linux as a platform for their home pc's.
I think that is referred to as competition.

Quote:
The problem with this is that you will see KDE, Gnome and other clonish software become more bloated and unweildly.
Sad, but true. I avoid them because of this. Actually, I liked Gnome 1.4 for the potential it represented.
I don't think it was that similar to MS Windows. From what I've read of Gnome 2, I'm not going to waste
my time. I personally do not want a clone of MS Windows. I think Windows is an awful, awful interface.
Just my opinion though. As to the 'cloning' of MS products, the average user doesn't want to relearn
something. Giving them something they are familiar with is reasonable.

Quote:
Open Source is great for small manageable projects - but Open Source's big problem is that if it wants to get a large project done correctly, it has to move slow.
Big deal. MS could learn from moving slow. Many of my MS criticisms come from MS putting out bloated
and buggy code. Considering their position (monopoly), I think they should slow down and put out quality
rather than quantity. Then again, they'd probably lose several hundred million dollars. Guess what...
Office 97 still runs quite well. How many iterations of Office have come out that have forced upgrades?

Quote:
Take a look at how long it too for linux to get USB and PCMCIA support in a stable kernel. Freakin forever.
It is also 'free'. Fine with me. I personally am not using any USB or PCMCIA devices. OK,
my mouse is USB, but it goes through an adapter into a PS/2 slot. I guess I could have
waited longer for these features.

Quote:
Does Microsoft suck? maybe.
Many think it does, many think it does not. I know many people who use MS products
and 'like' them, still think they suck. I personally don't care for most of their products,
regardless of their business practices.

Quote:
But take a look at your desktop and ask yourself how much it looks like a Microsoft product.
Well, they both have color. Not much else.

Quote:
- I guess you didn't get the memo. The DLL problem windows had in the past was just that -a "past" problem. Windows XP has done away with this problem.
No, I did not get the memo. That is wonderful news. I'm amazed it took this long. Yes, I'm amazed it actually happened too.

Quote:
Yes, Win 98 had this problem, but that windows build is more than 5 years old. Should we do the same and comment on linux build 1.17?
This was also a problem in Win2K, though not as extensive. Also, I've had .dll issues as far back as Windows 3 (before 3.11).

Quote:
- We have a firewall. Never had a virus problem to date. The insuation is that virii are running rampant on Window systems. I can honestly say that the last real virus I had was the "stoned" virus - that was back in 1989 or so.
Congratulations. I've never had a virus infect my Windows systems. My point was, you do not pay your
secretary to administer a Windows desktop any more than you would pay the person to administer a
linux system.

Quote:
Linux/unix have security concerns as well. Every month I get another Sendmail security alert. And that's a program that has been around for 25 years!
I'm no *nix expert, but I would investigate other programs if it had that many problems.

Quote:
When linux becomes deployed on more home desktops, you will see a HUGE increase in the number of security alerts hitting linux. MS is a target because of their market share, as any widely deployed system would be.
Correct. My problem isn't that MS programs have security issues. My problem is that they tend
to deny the problems. Numerous times have security organizations warned MS, only to be ignored.
Not until the organizations publicly announce the security issues does MS finally do something
about them. In some cases, they take forever to respond with a fix. In the best interest of their
customers, they should be happy an outside organization finds a security problem and often provides
a solution. At least, a well documented explanation of the problem. MS, if it chose to, could more
quickly produce security fixes. In their defense, they are improving in this area. They have a ways
to go. Linux security problems are fixed very quickly (certainly in comparison to MS).

Quote:
cheers,
Steb
Back at ya.

We could go on and on, but this is way beyond off topic now. I'm surprised a moderator didn't lock that other
thread. I must admit, only MS is likely to change my mind. I dislike MS as much because of their software as
their business practices.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How long it takes to write an article like this bro? :-)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DArtagnan wrote:
How long it takes to write an article like this bro? :-)
A whle 8O. Then I had to go back and edit it, because I didn't hit <return> in the correct places.

I'm not going to do it again. :D
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
Forked from this thread. Way off topic.

steblublu wrote:
Actually, I'm not trolling. I use Gentoo on my laptop and my web server.
Hmm... 2 posts, both in this thread about being tired of hearing complaints/whining/bashing (whatever you want to call it) against MS.

Quote:
I am just tired of people repeating the same anti-microsoft mantra just because it's "in style" to do so.
Dont' read it. The thread was about a potential problem that MS could cause to open source video drivers. A very real threat.
MS also said the internet was a fad and not going to be important. I'm not convinved they won't try to do something.

Quote:
Apple users used to do this when they were trying to "build community". Intel sucks, they claimed. maybe Intel does, but I happen to love my 2.4ghz pentium. They can keep their slow motorolla's.
Good for the Apple community. I personally don't care for Intel because of their price premium. I don't buy Levi's either.
I'd bet Apple is still better than Intel with Photoshop. Just a guess, I've not used either. Not important anyway.

Quote:
The reason microsoft has a "monopoly" is because they were the first, and yes, the ONLY operating system to offer something to the pc user.
First in most cases does not mean best.

Quote:
Much has been made of their bullying business tactics. But 99% of business operates this way. Apple, Sun, Oracle..etc. are not the choir boys of the industry. As a consultant, I have worked with most of them.
Apple does not have a monopoly. Neither does Sun or Oracle. I don't care if they are 'tough' and 'hardball'
business tactics. MS has gone beyond that, creating a monopoly and forcing other alternatives out the door.
The fact the MS has forced large companies like Gateway, Compaq and Dell (among others) to not offer
other OS on their machines through licensing agreements is where I have problems. They have done this
with alot of software.

Quote:
Yes, yes... Microsoft does have a monopoly. But this is not always a bad thing in industry. Take a look at what happened to the quality of service in the telecomm industry when Bell Telephone was split up...
- the baby Bell's have not been able to match the quality of service
- phone bills and operating costs have risen far beyond expectation
- the recent telecomm meltdown
Apples and oranges. I still only have 1 choice for LOCAL phone service. As far as I'm concerned, this is still a monopoly. Just
a different set of CEO's and VP's making alot of money instead of 1 set. Example: Let's assume MS didn't force OS/2 out of the
market. I could still go to the store and buy either Windows or OS/2. I can't choose a different LOCAL phone company. I don't
think the recent problems with Worldcomm are relevant. That is a corrupt leadership and poor business decision problem.

Quote:
What about Heinz? Their "Heinz Ketchup" has a strangle hold on the industry, yet I've never heard anyone complain that they are a monopoly.
I can still go to the grocery store and buy at least one other competitor's product. Ever hear of Hunt's? I think its awful, but it is
still available. I don't consume alot of ketchup, but I'm pretty sure there are some smaller brands available to me. I personally
prefer the 'burnt' flavor of Heinz, so I see no need to try others.

Quote:
Johnson & Johnson? They have hundreds and hundreds of products on the market all of which they have paid to have displayed the most prominantly on market shelves - yet I've never heard anyone saying that they suck because they have a monopoly.
If you're (meaning anyone) too lazy to look beyond the most prominantly displayed product
that is your problem. That doesn't mean they are the only products. I won't say I have no
Johnson & Johnson products in my house, but I can assure you, I avoid them. I prefer to
support companies that don't test products on animals, so I do research and find companies
that don't. Johnson & Johnson does not have a monopoly. I go to stores and buy competitors
products instead.

Quote:
I remeber when they were having the Microsoft court battles, a few of the "witnesses" actually claimed that Microsoft had irreperably damaged the software industry. They stated that software prices in the past 10 years had not come down in price - like the price of hardware had.
A demonstration of the poor lawsuit it was. That doesn't mean MS isn't a monopoly or doesn't engage in illegal business activities.

Quote:
Funny. 10 years ago the house I could buy for $100,000 now will cost me $180,000. It must be because Jimmy Carters "Habbitats" program! I think I'll sue.
Software and houses cannot be compared. Besidese, I don't care if their software hasn't come down in price.

Quote:
Like it or not, unix and linux have up until now "chosen" to remain a hacker's OS. and of course, we have done little in the past 10 years to change this fact. After all, it was nice to have our own OS. One that we could call our own.
Huh? The use for *nix has never been for desktop use. Only recently with the advent of Linux has it become an option. I think
the progress has been wonderful.

Quote:
The other guy (Apple), has chosen to only offer a totally proprietary product (both software, OS and hardware) for the past 20 years (other than the little 2 year hiccup they had where other vendors were able to release clones).
OK, so what? They also have a very small market.

Quote:
So then I hear joe linux trash Microsoft because they are a "monopoly",
They are a monopoly.

Quote:
and i hear them say that the Windows OS sucks.
An opinion, and by nature subjective. That does not make it invalid.

Quote:
Funny, but these are the same guys who are running KDE or Gnome (both of which are striving to be Windows clones).
Many probably do. Not that you were referring to me, but I do not. I use fluxbox.

Quote:
He is also running Evolution (a blatant Outlook knockoff).
Currently, I use Galeon for a browser to check my mail. I used Pegasus mail under Windows.

Quote:
KOffice, Star Office? very much trying to match MS Office functionality.
Match MS Office functionality? Well sortof. In order to gain users, any Office package *nix uses must
be as compatible as possible with MS. Otherwise, it will not function well to compete against the MS
monopoly. I wonder what would happen if there was an OPEN document standard. Let's even let MS
define it. If it were open, then any competitor could produce a product that wouldn't be shut out because
of their monopoly. The better product would win (as long as it didn't come bundled with the OS), or
several products would coexist. I still think the features of Word Perfect are far superior to that of MS
Office. My opinion. Because MS has a monopoly, Word Perfect and others aren't as viable an option.
Again, this goes to the closed document standards. I would be the first in line to cheer MS if they were
to do something like this. After cheering for them, I'd go across the street and buy Word Perfect though.
Because I think it is a better product, not because I had problems with the business practices of MS.

Quote:
Why is Microsoft such a threat to Linux?
For starters, they have been a threat to any other software product that has done well. OS/2, Apple, Lotus, Quicken (is Money
dominant yet?), FoxPro, Paradox. There are more.

Quote:
The truth is, it isnt. never has been. Never will be. Linux's audience has never been Microsoft's. Untill now.
That is why MS is a threat. As I demonstrated with the brief list of products.

Quote:
And it's Microsoft who should feel threatened. Not the linux community.
Well, Linux is a small threat. Unless MS does something to cripple linux. Hrm... let me think...
pushing for Digital Rights Management as a requirement in an OS? If MS gets their way,
linux would become illegal.

Quote:
Now that Linux seems to be moving into the mainstream, we will indeed see more people looking at linux as a platform for their home pc's.
I think that is referred to as competition.

Quote:
The problem with this is that you will see KDE, Gnome and other clonish software become more bloated and unweildly.
Sad, but true. I avoid them because of this. Actually, I liked Gnome 1.4 for the potential it represented.
I don't think it was that similar to MS Windows. From what I've read of Gnome 2, I'm not going to waste
my time. I personally do not want a clone of MS Windows. I think Windows is an awful, awful interface.
Just my opinion though. As to the 'cloning' of MS products, the average user doesn't want to relearn
something. Giving them something they are familiar with is reasonable.

Quote:
Open Source is great for small manageable projects - but Open Source's big problem is that if it wants to get a large project done correctly, it has to move slow.
Big deal. MS could learn from moving slow. Many of my MS criticisms come from MS putting out bloated
and buggy code. Considering their position (monopoly), I think they should slow down and put out quality
rather than quantity. Then again, they'd probably lose several hundred million dollars. Guess what...
Office 97 still runs quite well. How many iterations of Office have come out that have forced upgrades?

Quote:
Take a look at how long it too for linux to get USB and PCMCIA support in a stable kernel. Freakin forever.
It is also 'free'. Fine with me. I personally am not using any USB or PCMCIA devices. OK,
my mouse is USB, but it goes through an adapter into a PS/2 slot. I guess I could have
waited longer for these features.

Quote:
Does Microsoft suck? maybe.
Many think it does, many think it does not. I know many people who use MS products
and 'like' them, still think they suck. I personally don't care for most of their products,
regardless of their business practices.

Quote:
But take a look at your desktop and ask yourself how much it looks like a Microsoft product.
Well, they both have color. Not much else.

Quote:
- I guess you didn't get the memo. The DLL problem windows had in the past was just that -a "past" problem. Windows XP has done away with this problem.
No, I did not get the memo. That is wonderful news. I'm amazed it took this long. Yes, I'm amazed it actually happened too.

Quote:
Yes, Win 98 had this problem, but that windows build is more than 5 years old. Should we do the same and comment on linux build 1.17?
This was also a problem in Win2K, though not as extensive. Also, I've had .dll issues as far back as Windows 3 (before 3.11).

Quote:
- We have a firewall. Never had a virus problem to date. The insuation is that virii are running rampant on Window systems. I can honestly say that the last real virus I had was the "stoned" virus - that was back in 1989 or so.
Congratulations. I've never had a virus infect my Windows systems. My point was, you do not pay your
secretary to administer a Windows desktop any more than you would pay the person to administer a
linux system.

Quote:
Linux/unix have security concerns as well. Every month I get another Sendmail security alert. And that's a program that has been around for 25 years!
I'm no *nix expert, but I would investigate other programs if it had that many problems.

Quote:
When linux becomes deployed on more home desktops, you will see a HUGE increase in the number of security alerts hitting linux. MS is a target because of their market share, as any widely deployed system would be.
Correct. My problem isn't that MS programs have security issues. My problem is that they tend
to deny the problems. Numerous times have security organizations warned MS, only to be ignored.
Not until the organizations publicly announce the security issues does MS finally do something
about them. In some cases, they take forever to respond with a fix. In the best interest of their
customers, they should be happy an outside organization finds a security problem and often provides
a solution. At least, a well documented explanation of the problem. MS, if it chose to, could more
quickly produce security fixes. In their defense, they are improving in this area. They have a ways
to go. Linux security problems are fixed very quickly (certainly in comparison to MS).

Quote:
cheers,
Steb
Back at ya.

We could go on and on, but this is way beyond off topic now. I'm surprised a moderator didn't lock that other
thread. I must admit, only MS is likely to change my mind. I dislike MS as much because of their software as
their business practices.


See? I did it in 2 secs :-)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

Two comments, though I refuse to get drawn into this argument.

Quote:
I'm surprised a moderator didn't lock that other thread.


Comment 1: We are few in number and there's no way we can possibly read every post every day. If you guys see something that looks like it's getting off-topic (even if you're involved in it. :)), please feel free to PM me or one of the other mods.

Quote:
The DLL problem windows had in the past was just that -a "past" problem. Windows XP has done away with this problem.


Comment 2: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

--kurt
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
Comment 2: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

--kurt
I'm guessing that is a no confidence vote? :D
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
I'm guessing that is a no confidence vote? :D


Let's just say that my real-world experience in an enterprise environment of 20,000+ desktops directly contradicts the original statement.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
Let's just say that my real-world experience in an enterprise environment of 20,000+ desktops directly contradicts the original statement.

--kurt
:lol:

That was my impression (based on historical data). As I don't have
any experience with XP, I couldn't in good conscience refute his claim.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
kanuslupus wrote:
I'm guessing that is a no confidence vote? :D


Let's just say that my real-world experience in an enterprise environment of 20,000+ desktops directly contradicts the original statement.

--kurt


My "XPerience" ( :evil: ) of M$ Windows XP is that it doesnt take that many to find the problem, I have installed it for clients on around 10 machines and all but 2 of those took ages to get running correctly :evil:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
kanuslupus wrote:
I'm guessing that is a no confidence vote? :D


Let's just say that my real-world experience in an enterprise environment of 20,000+ desktops directly contradicts the original statement.

--kurt


Are you saying that your your real-world experience is currently administering a WAN of 20,000 Window XP desktop installations?

The way in which Win XP uses DLL's in quite different. whether you deploy on 1 or 20,000 computers... it will not change this fact.



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

steblublu wrote:
The way in which Win XP uses DLL's in quite different. whether you deploy on 1 or 20,000 computers... it will not change this fact.
No, but you can get a better overview across 20,000 desktops vs one or
even a hundred. Diverse hardware and software installs and other factors.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:27 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
Then I had to go back and edit it, because I didn't hit <return> in the correct places.

You could always let the forum do the line-wrapping instead of doing it manually...

klieber wrote:
We are few in number and there's no way we can possibly read every post every day.

Well, err, uhm... depending on how much time I have during the day, I can actually go through every post. (Every hour takes about six minutes to review, so mornings are the worst. :neutral:)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

delta407 wrote:
You could always let the forum do the line-wrapping instead of doing it manually...
If I ever get pulled into another 'long' post I will. I generally find them less pleasing to read without manual returns.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:54 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
I generally find them less pleasing to read without manual returns.

Then resize your browser window. ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 3:45 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

delta407 wrote:
Then resize your browser window. ;)
I like it the size it is for other sites just not line wrapping in forums. :shurg:
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2002 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

steblublu wrote:
The way in which Win XP uses DLL's in quite different. whether you deploy on 1 or 20,000 computers... it will not change this fact.


You're absolutely correct. The way that Win XP uses DLLs is quite different.

However, "quite different" and "works great" are two entirely different statements. Your original statement asserted that XP has "solved" the problem of DLLs. That is, quite simply, not true.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
You're absolutely correct. The way that Win XP uses DLLs is quite different.

However, "quite different" and "works great" are two entirely different statements. Your original statement asserted that XP has "solved" the problem of DLLs. That is, quite simply, not true.

--kurt



huh? How is it not true? The old DLL-Hell was caused by 2 different programs needing 2 different versions of the same DLL.

As WinXP uses Side-By-Side DLL management, how is this still an issue?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:18 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

steblublu wrote:
As WinXP uses Side-By-Side DLL management, how is this still an issue?


If two programs LoadLibrary() the same filename but expect different versions, they will still break.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:22 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

delta407 wrote:
steblublu wrote:
As WinXP uses Side-By-Side DLL management, how is this still an issue?


If two programs LoadLibrary() the same filename but expect different versions, they will still break.



Exactly my point. Side-By-Side loading solves this problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:24 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

steblublu wrote:
Exactly my point. Side-By-Side loading solves this problem.


No, it doesn't. LoadLibrary() provides no version descriptors and does not rely on COM or ActiveX or anything that does have version descriptors. You just query function names, and side-by-side loading doesn't solve that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

delta407 wrote:
steblublu wrote:
Exactly my point. Side-By-Side loading solves this problem.


No, it doesn't. LoadLibrary() provides no version descriptors and does not rely on COM or ActiveX or anything that does have version descriptors. You just query function names, and side-by-side loading doesn't solve that.



The loader under previous Windows didn't. Windows XP does.

Side-by-side assemblies allows for isolated applications, dll-redirection. multiple versions of core windows components can be installed and run on the system at the same time.

ex: you can have 3 different versions of the SAME dll installed in the system at the same time. Applications will use the dll that they were DESIGNED to use.

Isolated applications and manifests control which app your system was built to use.

LoadLibraryEx gets called and at that point the loader looks at the manifest and looks at which version the application is meant to work with.

Search MSDN for a better explanation of how it works. Even though it is a microsoft technology, it's still interesting.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

steblublu wrote:
LoadLibraryEx gets called and at that point the loader looks at the manifest and looks at which version the application is meant to work with.


The thing is, some applications call LoadLibrary(), pass it a path name as a string, and query functions as necessary. There is only a string (which could be pulled from, say, the registry), not versioning information -- it's all late-bound.

Again, there are instances where there is no version information to look at. LoadLibrary() is one of them. "Side-by-side" does not apply when all the kernel has to go on is a path name.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:44 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

delta407 wrote:
steblublu wrote:
LoadLibraryEx gets called and at that point the loader looks at the manifest and looks at which version the application is meant to work with.


The thing is, some applications call LoadLibrary(), pass it a path name as a string, and query functions as necessary. There is only a string (which could be pulled from, say, the registry), not versioning information -- it's all late-bound.

Again, there are instances where there is no version information to look at. LoadLibrary() is one of them.




The Side-By-Side Manager is now a child process of the DLL loader function, and will get called by the DLL Loader - even if the programmer is unaware of this.

So even if you do not explicitly call the manager, the Dll loader will fork and call it. The key is the Manifest. The LoadLibrary function does not need to explicitly state which verison it wants/needs.


Steb


Last edited by steblublu on Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:46 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

steblublu wrote:
So even if you do not explicitly call the manager, the Dll loader (LoadLibrary) will fork and call it.


But... not actually fork(), right? :D
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2002 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: MS vs. Linux (a debate pulled from another thread) Reply with quote

delta407 wrote:
steblublu wrote:
So even if you do not explicitly call the manager, the Dll loader (LoadLibrary) will fork and call it.


But... not actually fork(), right? :D




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