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Bunzinator
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:46 am    Post subject: New to Gentoo Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

I'm a long time linux user, having used Slackware, Redhat, (K)Ubuntu and LFS over the past twenty or so years. With Ubuntu's decision to adopt systemd, I find myself needing a new less inflexible distro, and Gentoo wins.

If anyone has any experiences, gotchas or hints in adapting to Gentoo specifically from Ubuntu, I'd love to hear from you. :) If not, all good. I'm off to start R'ingTFM when I finish posting this.

Bunz
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome!

These forums, Gentoo Wiki and Google will be your friends.

Adapting from Debian/Ubuntu - I'd say instead of doing it for you Gentoo will ask you what to do.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome!

One big hint is don't use the minimal install CD. The hardware support kind of sucks. The System Rescue CD is a much more useful install media. It will not change anything in the handbook, but it will give you a nicer environment to install from and better hardware support.

Two potentially big ones are sys-apps/smartmontools and net-misc/openntpd. These are not mentioned anywhere in the Handbook but are really handy. Smartmontools will monitor your drives and can help you detect an imminent failure and/or test the drive function. Openntpd will set the clock. Both have wiki entries and you don't need to worry about them until after you have a bootable system.

You may also want to look into eudev. It has 2 main advantages over udev. The first is that it doesn't require any special configuration to retain the old network names (ie, eth0 and wlan0). The second advantages is that $upstream is no longer LP. There is no real functional difference, so other than the political statement it really isn't worth mentioning.
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ct85711
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Jaglover mentioned, if you have any questions or issues, just ask in the forums or in IRC. Both the Gentoo handbook (to get your base system setup) and Gentoo's wiki are very useful to get you started. Beyond that, let portage worry about all dependencies for the packages you want. Portage is really good to usually solve most dependency issues automatically, the few times it will tell you want USE flag you need to add to allow a package to be installed. The rare times it can't, just ask in the forums; however, please put the entire portage message in the post (it will save you and everyone else time).

Using -pa will make it significantly easier for you to monitor what portage wants to pull in too.
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WWWW
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the THREE programs I reccomend to used from the beginning:

eix
portage-utils
gentoolkit


Basic eix usage:

For any package:

Code:
eix foo


To filter by category:

Code:
eix -C foo-bar foo


With the -C option the category doesn't have to be the full name 'foo-bar', but any characters in the contruction 'xxx-xxx'. Try it, it's fun.

To search in description:

Code:
eix -S foo


With -S you use any word related to what could be related to the program. So eix -S sony will search all packages where the word "sony" appears in the description.

Lastly, this one comes in handy when you want list of packages in plain (useful for copy paste or piping, etc):

Code:
eix --only-names


Oops another one, exact match:

Code:
eix -e foo


I wonder who are the brains behind eix but it's an incredible powerful search engine, perhaps better than google.

The forte of Gentoo are the USE flags, in order to get to know them this one helps to know what they do with this:

Code:
equery u foo


This one is either in gentoolkit or portage-utils, forgot :/

Pay special attention to make.conf.

These are the bits more specific to Gentoo.

Oh and as somebody mentioned above, use:

openrc
eudev


Stock Gentoo comes with udev. However, after install, to switch is as simple as:

emerge -Cv udev (ignore the warning)
emerge eudev

salutes.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bunzinator,

Welcome.

Gentoo will give you two things. The packages you ask for and tho packages you need to support the packages you asked for.
Keep in mind that the converse is (mostly) true too - if you didn't ask for it, its not installed.

The well trodden path is install the base system, including selecting a profile that matches your use case.
Reboot, install and configure X, test X, install your desktop. Configure X way be a NOP.

This should mostly JustWork - the profile will set some useful USE flags for you. If you use emerge -av, you can decide if you need to change any USE flags to suit your taste befare emerge runs.

Gentoo is portage and the ebuild tree. Everything else is $UPSTREAM. As such, its a toolkit you use to build and maintain your own distro.
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Bunzinator
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your replies, folks. All most useful. I was hoping to get stuck in over the weekend, but things got in the way. C'est la vie. Maybe tonight.

Bunz
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Advice: don't use portage, but paludis. It's easier that way than switching after ~2 years or so.

Portage:
pros:
  • user friendly in a sense that it provides a lot of functionality (for better or good) that isn't related to the dependency solver
  • it is fully supported and handles lots of corner cases and junk input (like very bad ebuilds that shouldn't be in the tree)

cons:
  • the code is a pure nightmare and almost no one understands the immense complexity, indirection and side effects happening there
  • the code is not modular (repoman is still part of portage)
  • the resolver often misses packages and is highly undeterministic (running the same thing twice may yield different results)
  • the user has VERY poor control over the details of the resolver compared to paludis
  • dynamic dependencies are not only supported, but still default (this MAY change in the future), although they are dangerous and cause all kinds of weird side effects and inconsistencies in your vdb
  • autounmask is regularly broken and dangerous
  • you get TONS of weird and impossible to understand error messages on non-trivial dependency-solver problems
  • merging is not entirely safe afair, see here, but I'm not entirely sure whether that's still a problem
  • portage appears to do some unpredictable automatic directory creation, see here but as before I'm not entirely sure if that's still a problem
  • VERY poor overlay support... most people don't realize that, because they never tried paludis and depend on stuff like layman which doesn't solve the problem of dependency resolution across repositories
  • configuration is rather limited and chaotic compared to paludis and sometimes has tricky bits not everyone knows of
  • people are used to weird workarounds and stop caring why stuff happens, because no one can figure out what is happening


Paludis:
pros:
  • clear distinction between dependency solver and client (cave) and modular design
  • has actual API documentation
  • the dependency resolver seems to be correcter and stricter in most cases
  • the dependency resolver doesn't allow dynamic deps and doesn't allow to randomly break your vdb
  • the dependency resolver does not make random assumptions about what you want
  • the dependency resolver quits WAY "earlier" than portage if it's not sure what you want and as such often gives more reasonable errors/warnings
  • merging files and folders is more strict/safe
  • automatic directory creation is more strict/safe
  • it's way stricter about broken configuration/overlays/packages and throws lots of warnings if things are messed up
  • cave (the client to paludis) allows very fine-grained control over the details of the dependency solver, see here
  • no misfeatures like autounmask or preserved-rebuild
  • configuration is properly organized, explained and sometimes more powerful than in portage, also see paludis hooks
  • helper tools are not scattered across 20 packages, but are mostly part of subcommands of cave (e.g. 'cave resolve', 'cave fix-linkage', 'cave print-id-contents foo/bar', ...)
  • VERY good overlay support, including dependency resolution across overlays, no need for 3rd party tools like layman

cons:
  • not consistently supported in gentoo... some devs may close your bug reports if you report them while using paludis (although they are not entitled to do so)
  • since paludis upstream cares more about support for exherbo and says gentoo has to fix it's input... they won't add workarounds for utterly broken ebuilds like virtual/rubygems
  • it's not particularly user friendly if you don't know what you want and is more difficult to handle at first (you should understand what the different resolver switches do etc)
  • it's probably debatable whether it's because of missing portage hacks or just a bug, but "|| ( ... )" deps seem to cause more trouble in paludis than in portage (e.g. with those auto-generated haskell ebuilds, sometimes for perl as well)
  • afais, support for subslots is still poor, see mismatched sub-slots don't trigger rebuilds of dependant packages
  • a lot of 3rd party tools are written for portage and may only partially or not work at all with paludis
  • no repoman equivalent afaik... but repoman still works ofc


Probably forgot a lot.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell forget :)
Paludis:
pros:
  • kick ass support given by hasufell that is a dev
  • awesome friendly to use when you're back from a drunk party

cons:
  • poor support as only hasufell is mad enough to use it as-is, few users can also provide random support because they are drunk.
  • no better package manager if you don't plan to give your liver to anyone.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
Probably forgot a lot.

There's a few missing from the bottom.

- No sync security (instead of implementing webrsync-gpg upstream, once, correctly, every single user is expected to become an expert and build their own)
- Resolver is slow as hell on an average Gentoo (~900 in ::installed, 4 cores)
- Incredibly user-hostile interface (would it kill them to ask by default instead of *throwing away* a 10 minute resolution?)
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
- No sync security (instead of implementing webrsync-gpg upstream, once, correctly, every single user is expected to become an expert and build their own)

This isn't a real-world problem. You can tell paludis how to sync and also just use plain emerge-webrsync.
Ant P. wrote:
- Resolver is slow as hell on an average Gentoo (~900 in ::installed, 4 cores)

The most common false information spread about paludis. The algorithms are different and the OUTPUT is different, so comparing both PMs isn't as easy as you make it sound.
If you use '-z', then there isn't really any time difference to a regular portage merge. But I doubt those people who blog about paludis vs portage speed even know what that switch means and that the interface is fundamentally different.

In addition... it also depends on the junk input which portage works around in lots of ways while paludis does not. Go ahead and try exherbo from scratch and you'll see that the difference of input makes paludis magnitudes faster.
Ant P. wrote:
- Incredibly user-hostile interface (would it kill them to ask by default instead of *throwing away* a 10 minute resolution?)

It's a different concept, so it must be hostile.

Similar like git is hostile to people who have been using svn/cvs for decades.
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Fitzcarraldo
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
hasufell forget :)
Paludis:
pros:
  • kick ass support given by hasufell that is a dev
  • awesome friendly to use when you're back from a drunk party

cons:
  • poor support as only hasufell is mad enough to use it as-is, few users can also provide random support because they are drunk.
  • no better package manager if you don't plan to give your liver to anyone.

:lol: Très amusant.

Bunzinator, in case you're confused, Portage works fine.
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yngwin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it may be technically less correct, portage is the only package manager that gets full support on Gentoo. Generally it is also faster, and has a huge and friendly community that can help you with it.
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mrbassie
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
While it may be technically less correct, portage is the only package manager that gets full support on Gentoo. Generally it is also faster, and has a huge and friendly community that can help you with it.


Are you saying we're all fat?
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Generally it is also faster,

Please stop spreading misinformation.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me bangs a few heads together for derailing topic.
This is not the thread to use for evanglising over package managers.
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
/me bangs a few heads together for derailing topic.
This is not the thread to use for evanglising over package managers.

I'm not sure what the problem is
Bunzinator wrote:
If anyone has any experiences, gotchas or hints in adapting to Gentoo

the PM choice is *very* important for people who are new to gentoo.
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a3li
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
/me bangs a few heads together for derailing topic.
This is not the thread to use for evanglising over package managers.

I'm not sure what the problem is


I don't think it's a 'what'.
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a3li wrote:
hasufell wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
/me bangs a few heads together for derailing topic.
This is not the thread to use for evanglising over package managers.

I'm not sure what the problem is


I don't think it's a 'what'.

Could you clarify why you are going ad hominem without adding anything to the thread?
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzzinator,

Welcome. The virtue of Gentoo is that flamewars don't affect you directly, since you have so much choice in how you want to set up your system.

FWIW, I use eudev and Paludis.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome Bunzinator, I used Slackware in the far back ;) But stuck with Gentoo since 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh* some people


Welcome Bunzinator, I hope you will enjoy gentoo. I learnt more in the weekend installing gentoo than I did running RH/Mandrake for a couple of years prior to trying it.
Gentoo is primarily about choice not only in the USE flag "I want python but I don't want tk support" but equally in packages. FFMPEG or LIBAV (complete dropin), init system (OpenRC, SystemD, etc ) , libc ...or even package managers (portage, paludis, pkgcore [needs some love to bring up to speed]).
It has a reasonable separation of stable & "bleeding edge"

My advice is stick with stable, use portage, get familiar with tinkering and how things can break before you consider trying some of the alternatives for some packages (especially since the motivation for using an alternative is highly politicised)
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Gentoo is primarily about choice not only in the USE flag "I want python but I don't want tk support" but equally in packages. FFMPEG or LIBAV (complete dropin), init system (OpenRC, SystemD, etc ) , libc ...or even package managers (portage, paludis, pkgcore [needs some love to bring up to speed]).
It has a reasonable separation of stable & "bleeding edge"

Separation of stable & "bleeding edge" is not always reasonable. Some developers use ~arch for testing, others use package.mask to mark ebuilds for testing. Some developers don't file stablereqs at all, because they don't care about stable arch.

As such, users of stable arch will often hit the case that something they want is not present in stable arch at all. At that point they have to MIX stable and unstable arch. This is not a trivial thing to do and can lead to very complex and confusing emerge output, especially because autounmask is broken and should not be used.

Additionally, the complexity of your system configuration increases.
Naib wrote:
My advice is stick with stable, use portage, get familiar with tinkering and how things can break before you consider trying some of the alternatives for some packages (especially since the motivation for using an alternative is highly politicised)

While I use stable arch myself I'm not sure I agree. Maybe it's best to start with stable arch, but if you repeatedly have to add stable keywords for unstable packages... it might be time to just go full ~arch, unless you are very familiar with understanding obscure package blockers.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: New to Gentoo Reply with quote

Bunzinator wrote:
I'm a long time linux user, having used Slackware, Redhat, (K)Ubuntu and LFS over the past twenty or so years. With Ubuntu's decision to adopt systemd, I find myself needing a new less inflexible distro, and Gentoo wins.

Welcome to the forums. :-)

I think you're going to love Gentoo.
Quote:
If anyone has any experiences, gotchas or hints in adapting to Gentoo specifically from Ubuntu, I'd love to hear from you. :)
Try the tips thread; make sure you've read the basics post at the top of second page.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
Maybe it's best to start with stable arch, but if you repeatedly have to add stable keywords for unstable packages... it might be time to just go full ~arch, unless you are very familiar with understanding obscure package blockers.

Ugh not this canard again. Bad idea; can't believe you're even recommending it, especially as a way to deal with blockers. Is that really the "correct" approach we keep hearing about?

Lul.
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