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sera
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Gentoo, what would you do for carbon emission reduction? Reply with quote

MACHINE wrote:
I was guessing that Gentoo could be the largest linux distribution in carbon emission because of its unique package installation method. Any thoughts?


We use 60% Water and 40% Nuke Power for electricity, in fact a hot cpu helps lowering the carbon emission as we are heating the rooms with oil. :wink:
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ArmorSuit
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, global warming is not man made, as has been proven many times and has recently been shown that even the so called "scientists" are aware of that. Second, reducing pollution, regardless of warming, is something we must all do to preserve our own lives. But the solution is not in reduction of energy use. The solution is in producing it in abundance and in a clean way. A sick body won't heal itself if you stop feeding it, quite the contrary, you need to give it energy to heal... There are of course exceptions, especially if feeding itself is a reason for illness...

Source based OS/programs/computing is something I see as a definite future. As computers advance and super-hyper-networks begin to emerge, everything will be interconnected in a massive network. We now see emergence of cloud computing which, regardless of its criticisms and initial problems, will eventually be a norm. Open source will prevail not because of the "freedom" philosophy (as long as there is "money"), but because of practical benefits. Individual subnodes in a massive computing environment will require on-demand source for various tasks, the programs will modify themselves in order to achieve performance (not just speed-wise performance). As AI become more widespread, the AI will want to modify itself, and pre-compiled cookie cutter solutions will quickly become obsolete.

Who knows what the evolution of programming languages will bring. But I am sure, as a programmer, that one thing will definitely be part of it. On-demand self-adaption of source code, the grandchild of USE flags. :mrgreen:

Hell, JIT (Just In Time) compilation is available even today, in "higher" level langs, and that is the future. Perhaps Gentoo will eventually "die" in the form it is today, but the concept of it never will, so Gentoo can only adjust and evolve. As CPUs become faster, JIT compiling even the lowest-level language will become feasible. And Gentoo will stay to say "Hey, we were there first".

Perhaps not all computing environments will follow suit, perhaps it will be more feasible to have parts of the Super network provide JIT compilation for various front-end and production services elsewhere (think distcc and adaptive binhosts as on-demand background SERVICE!), but even then Gentoo will not be obsolete but quite the contrary, it will be (at least its concept) a very important piece of the puzzle.
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sera
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArmorSuit wrote:
First of all, global warming is not man made, as has been proven many times and has recently been shown that even the so called "scientists" are aware of that.


Don't know where you got that from, however it's plain wrong. It took almost 150 years to be acknowledged. The 50's of last century was the point where the idea started spreading as the physic was now capable of giving a lot of new insight on that matter.
Up into the 90 a lot of different models were brought up and more and more factors played a role.
In the 90's then the before not unifiable models started to merge. More and more started to fit.
It was a few years ago as an experiment involving seawater temperatures brought enough evidence that even many politicians around the world couldn't ignore it anymore.

Germany for instance just lately started funding a research project to artificially extract CO2 from the atmosphere. Thumbs up here. It might soon become necessary.
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ArmorSuit
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sera wrote:

Don't know where you got that from, however it's plain wrong. It took almost 150 years to be acknowledged. The 50's of last century was the point where the idea started spreading as the physic was now capable of giving a lot of new insight on that matter.


There have been periods in our history with much greater average temperatures and much greater levels of CO2, far before any industrial revolution. Also, since 1978 the global trends show cooling. Finally, the "global warming" models are wrong because all the measurements come from urban areas which show higher temperatures for vast number of other reasons, including localized CO2 (smog) greenhouse effect, but globally, measured planet-wide, there is no such change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnipKZAhgW4 this is just one piece in vast array of examples.

The climate is changing, without a doubt, but it has been doing so forever.


EDIT: Btw the recent hacking and publishing of emails exchanged between the so called "global warming scientists" shows that they have deliberately manipulated research in order to show warming.
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please direct 'climategate' drivil here: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-803553.html
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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sera
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Please direct 'climategate' drivil here: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-803553.html


desultory wrote:
MACHINE wrote:
Any thoughts?
I think you should have searched before posting.

Merged the preceding post.


As you can see at least one of our admins thinks it's the right topic.

Now for the CO2, the effect is proven and gives the mankind a possibility to actually control the global temperature in the future. Nasa's mars project idea is based on that fact (a bunch of fools you say?).


I'm well aware there where times with a lot higher concentration of CO2 and this was one of the contradiction I spoke of and at those times live was quite different from what we know today.

On the other hand we have at least data from a Russian experiment which shows during the last 400'000 years CO2 was never more than about 280ppm till a century ago, during Ice Times it dropped to about 180 ppm. In the last 50 years there was increase from about 320 to almost 400ppm.

The correlation between CO2 and temperature can clearly be seen in many experiments and measurements in nature. What long time was bothersome was the order it occurred, first the temperature and then the CO2.

Earth's Milakovitch cycles and the behavior of buffered systems (have a look at the describing Differentiation equations) explain that sufficiently. And this makes the problem of CO2 fearsome.

Global cooling since 1978?
Do you honestly believe this?

So who would have an interests in this being not true. For the US it's undoubtedly uncomfortable for many 3 world countries even an existential problem. Also with changing the source of energy it won't be the same people anymore behind the source.

I won't watch a video on youtube to build an opinion on that matter. Beside BBC and NZZ all journalist seem hopeless or not independent at all to me, sure you will find them in other places but those are more than rare. Read the original papers or believe in whatever whoever says.

There are other factors beside CO2 which affect the climate. For instance stop planting rice and stop having cows would reduce the emission of methane by estimated 60%. Another not unimportant factor indeed.

Also there is the idea of emitting aerosols to counterweight the CO2 and other greenhouse gases.

About the measurements being done in urban regions, I wouldn't call the Antarctica an urban region. This is where the first serious results came from. In the 70s this must have been.

All in all never forget it's a highly political and sometimes even an existential problem. However this debate is not new, it's ongoing for a more than a century now. There was never so less resistance as today.

Currently we are doing a global scale terraforming experiment basically. Harmless is something else.
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo packaging being inefficent isn't the same thing as 'climategate' politiciking. That's far off topic.
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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ArmorSuit
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sera wrote:
Read the original papers or believe in whatever whoever says.


This is the best thing one can do regarding these matters. There are lots of information available on the net for anyone willing to look into it, google is one's best friend here. I did that and I am convinced that there is no man made global warming, especially because IPCC themselves abandoned their own "hockey stick" model which is the only "proof" they had for the man caused warming. Plenty of evidence for that.

I also agree this is completely off topic here. What is on topic is saying that statements like Gentoo is harmful for the environment are ridiculous. And in this case it is irrelevant whether the warming is caused by man or not. The energy sources should be clean regardless and I guess no one is denying pollution, right?
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regomodo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArmorSuit wrote:

.................I also agree this is completely off topic here.


Then don't bring it up.
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ArmorSuit
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh the smell of belief systems burning and falling apart... :roll:
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desultory
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Please direct 'climategate' drivil here: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-803553.html
Consider this a more gently phrased and more official request to equivalent effect.

Split from "The Future of Gentoo".
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