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DirtyHairy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the sentiments of the original poster - though using and enjoying KDE, I am living on the command line mainly, and I get along fine with some rudimental organization + slocate + find + grep. But, ahem, why are you trying to completely rip nepomuk + strigi from your system? You can just completely disable it in the settings, and it's as good as gone (that's what I do). Saving those few MB of disk space hardly seems worth the trouble, and if you're willing to live through compiling KDE4, those few additional minutes during updates hardly matter, do they?
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DaggyStyle
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyHairy wrote:
I agree with the sentiments of the original poster - though using and enjoying KDE, I am living on the command line mainly, and I get along fine with some rudimental organization + slocate + find + grep. But, ahem, why are you trying to completely rip nepomuk + strigi from your system? You can just completely disable it in the settings, and it's as good as gone (that's what I do). Saving those few MB of disk space hardly seems worth the trouble, and if you're willing to live through compiling KDE4, those few additional minutes during updates hardly matter, do they?

even when you disable it, it stays in the memory.
why would I want to waste my memory on a feature that was disabled and will never be used?
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

  • There is no need to cripple your system by manually hard masking anything or going nuts with everything that pops up by using "-semantic-desktop". Just disable this thing for your user if you are on a multi-user environment.
  • I have disabled it, the nepomukserver will still be started, do some initial work and then be idle. (At least it is on my system)
  • Unfortunately, if you do not like that, you'll actually have to go the "-semantic-desktop"-way, afaik.
  • But I can't, because my girlfriend makes excessive use of that feature with hundreds of photos taken with our digicam. :-( So the masking way can't be mine.
  • On the other hand they say that "It is easier to make a correct program fast than to make a fast program correct", so I'll guess things will become a lot better with performance and resource usage once nepomuk+strigi matured.
  • And if they where not turned on by default, nobody would turn them on and thus they'll never mature.
Just my thoughts on that subject.

On the other hand it is completely pointless to rant about something that is easily turned off.
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DirtyHairy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition, nepomukserver is ~10MB resident memory on my system and idles, ergo will be swapped out if necessary. So, no reason to go crazy about it unless you are very short on RAM, in which case you shouldn't be running KDE anyways ;)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Desktop Environments to Gentoo Chat (not a support question).
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regomodo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've no idea what it does other than occasionally thrash my hard-drive and eat up 100s of MB of ram.
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Corona688
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With just a little thought a 'broad' search can be very narrow indeed. If anything, the index-EVERYTHING-about-EVERYTHING approach seems like the real twelve pound sledge. I can imagine it being useful for some kinds of libraries but the huge footprint and performance cost makes it overkill for the averge user who'd use it maybe four times a year (or mistake it for a fabulously slow launcher menu.)

Some sort of tool that combined both -- the ability to do a broad search while examining file contents in an intelligent way -- would make sense to me. Or at least the ability to pick which attributes you actually want to index.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Some sort of tool that combined both -- the ability to do a broad search while examining file contents in an intelligent way -- would make sense to me. Or at least the ability to pick which attributes you actually want to index.


i agree and, if i understand you correctly, there is already such a thing based on nepomuk :

http://www.chimera-bellerofonte.eu/2009/12/sembrowser-0-1-out-for-testing/

or maybe sth. combined with the zeitgeist engine too.

cheers
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jgpallack
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always disable strigi because I don't like hearing my hard drive grind. Not to mention that I've had a very long history of issues with HDD load making my system unusable, something that I'm only now able to deal with thanks to BFQ and using ionice to throttle the hell out of everything's ability to access the disk.
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albright
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using the new strigi (0.7.1) in kde 4.3.5 and -- amazingly --
it has been working very well (it did once go crazy and nepomukservices
got up to 1.8 gb memory consumption :) ). It does not seem to
segfault when it tries to index my mail anymore (well - it did once
but recovered on its own- that is it restarted and finished successfully).

For me it is now quite useful
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest problem I have with these sorts of indexing services, it the big holes it leaves for information leakage, holes that are not obvious to the user that they are there.

For example, the computer I'm using to type this: even if someone were to steal it, there isn't much on it that would be of value to the thief.

But sometimes I need to use it for composing and printing official documents on it: taxes, letter to correct billing error, stuff like that. Once finished, the files get put on a "private papers" USB drive which is then unmounted and stored in a safe place; any related files still left on the hard drive are deleted. [1]

Indexing services can completely subvert this somewhat paranoid handling of financial information. One can never be sure that every trace of potentially sensitive data is gone from the indexes. Vi users, take a look at ~/.viminfo to see what I mean. Even bash's ~/.bash_history can be sensitive depending on how you name your files and directories.

Sure, there's options to enable or disable specific areas from being indexed. But any service that's turned on by default runs a big risk of inadvertently leaking information in the very common case where a user might not even be aware of what's running or of the need to look over the options and restrict particular directories that might hold sensitive information. And even after one does become aware and de-selects any sensitive areas, how does one know it did the right thing? Do the affected indexes get purged at the time of de-selection? Or do fragments linger a while and only eventually get garbage-collected?

And it doesn't need to be a physical theft to extract this information. The next bug in your favorite web browser, or in flash, that allows local-file read access is enough. The user of the exploit won't know your particular file names. But they will know the common places that indexing services use, and to look there.

[1] Yes, I know that deleting just unlinks some pointers but leaves the data in the sectors. There's a few ways to mitigate this exposure but in the interest of brevity I'll skip that for now.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

#NULL

Last edited by GWilliam on Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Akkara:
I cannot completely agree with your point. Although your scenario is quite right and can be dangerous I think it is no option to avoid new technology only because people are too stupid/lazy too learn or do use it without any responsibility.
If we always would have gone this way there weren't much inventions done and we would still live in caves rather modern society.
I think this "blaming the technology to be wrong instead of learn to use it right and with responsibility" is a common problem today. It makes things easy for the individual but I think this is an even more dangerous way than exploring new technologies and methods...
I think most people got too lazy to learn how to use technology right and on the other hand most technologies aren't explained the right way anymore. So there's much room for improvements on both sides...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the "upgrade" to kde 4.4 nepomuk/virtuoso/strigi is
still a mess.

As an experiment I opened dolphin and searched for the
world "serious". Very common word so I was curious what
would happen.

So far, been searching for 10 minutes (!), 1000s of files
found but, sadly, many no longer exist on my system (have
been deleted since strigi database built - should it not purge
such files?), found some deleted files and reported them to
be on a unplugged usb stick (it was plugged in a couple
of days ago but the found file was never on the stick).

Oh yes, nepomukservices and kin are now up to about
2 gb RES memory and virtuoso is maxing out two of
my cores.

I stopped the search but nepomukservices continues to
grow in memory use and virtuoso is still pegging the cpu.

Sadly, these aren't what you could call bugs - the whole
semantic desktop system appears to be broken to the
core.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

albright wrote:
Since the "upgrade" to kde 4.4 nepomuk/virtuoso/strigi is
still a mess.

As an experiment I opened dolphin and searched for the
world "serious". Very common word so I was curious what
would happen.

So far, been searching for 10 minutes (!), 1000s of files
found but, sadly, many no longer exist on my system (have
been deleted since strigi database built - should it not purge
such files?), found some deleted files and reported them to
be on a unplugged usb stick (it was plugged in a couple
of days ago but the found file was never on the stick).

Oh yes, nepomukservices and kin are now up to about
2 gb RES memory and virtuoso is maxing out two of
my cores.

I stopped the search but nepomukservices continues to
grow in memory use and virtuoso is still pegging the cpu.

Sadly, these aren't what you could call bugs - the whole
semantic desktop system appears to be broken to the
core.

that's why I've disabled that flag.
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Kingoftherings
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, I still have semantic-desktop enabled, but it's only because Kmail requires it.

I recently caught Virtuoso hogging up most of my quad core CPU, and I've disabled it ever since. I'm almost too scared to look at if it's still hogging up memory, but after reading this thread I'll do that when I get home.

If it's taking up a ton of memory, it'll be time to find a new email client. However, I wouldn't be surprised is most KDE apps in 4.5 will require Nepomuk.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kingoftherings wrote:
Unfortunately, I still have semantic-desktop enabled, but it's only because Kmail requires it.

This almost made me switch to GNOME. However, after installing gdm which is really not so nice as kdm (lots of features and configuration stuff are absent, the defaults are dangerous from a security perspective) and seeing that even gnome-light requires unconditionally all the terrible *kit stuff, I changed my mind.
Now I found a solution: Unmerge kmail and use claws-mail instead. In fact, claws-mail is very similar to kmail, only better :wink:
Quote:
However, I wouldn't be surprised is most KDE apps in 4.5 will require Nepomuk.

I am afraid of this, too. So it is getting time to think about alternatives...
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Ormaaj
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

..

Last edited by Ormaaj on Thu May 17, 2012 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Kingoftherings wrote:
Unfortunately, I still have semantic-desktop enabled, but it's only because Kmail requires it.

This almost made me switch to GNOME. However, after installing gdm which is really not so nice as kdm (lots of features and configuration stuff are absent, the defaults are dangerous from a security perspective) and seeing that even gnome-light requires unconditionally all the terrible *kit stuff, I changed my mind.
Now I found a solution: Unmerge kmail and use claws-mail instead. In fact, claws-mail is very similar to kmail, only better :wink:
Quote:
However, I wouldn't be surprised is most KDE apps in 4.5 will require Nepomuk.

I am afraid of this, too. So it is getting time to think about alternatives...

Yeah, they likely will, sorry about that. Meanwhile, Nepomuk/Strigi have become way better again, and Soprano is a huge improvement over the older Redland database. You might think about removing the database and letting it index your files over night (as gentoo user you must be used to having your pc grind through compilation over night every now and then). With a clean database things should be much better.

And I do face similar issues as mentioned earlier in this thread, so I feel the pain, but it's the pain we all have to face when going through change. It'll be for the good, really. The upcoming KDE PIM apps will make good use of Nepomuk for their search, and they'll be a lot faster than the current series with a lot of mail. I seriously look forward to Akonadi - I can handle a few issues at first if it will not let my laptop work for 10 minutes when it has to sync imap with gmail when there is a lot of mail...

But. If any of you have tips, suggestions, ways to improve this or esp code for the Nepomuk/Strigi developers, I'd love to hear it and will relay it to them.

I hope you dudes and girls here can spare a little more patience for us, we've been working very hard on this but it's uncharted territory (NOBODY, not in the FOSS, not in the proprietary world, has ever attempted to have a full desktop integrate with semantic search capabilities - and we're not there yet either). If we succeed in doing this, solving the issues and getting it running even on low-resource systems (and that IS our goal, we're actually even targeting N900-type devices with our stuff, Akonadi already runs on them!) we'll have a 5 year headstart on Apple and Microsoft. And this feature could revolutionize computing, making it easier, faster, more social too (you can share tags and semantic data, it's a research project which is ongoing - 'just' need to solve the privacy issues).

This innovative kind of stuff - while painful, can make the difference between a nice alternative copying the Win'95 paradigm or a compelling alternative offering the next generation desktop technology. We aim for the latter, our competition goes for the former. Power to them, but we aim higher. For that - we need help, both in terms of moral support and code.

You dudes here live on the edge of what's possible, so bugreports and any help from the Gentoo community is very much appreciated!!!

(eg for a call for help, see the blogpost about Krita: http://slangkamp.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/we-need-more-bug-reports/ and they're not the only ones in dire need of some bugreporting and triaging - it's easy work, and very very helpful!)

Love all,
Jos Poortvliet
(still here on my 'evil' nick)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

superstoned wrote:
You might think about removing the database and letting it index your files over night (as gentoo user you must be used to having your pc grind through compilation over night every now and then).

As a matter of fact, no, my notebook stays off over night. And yes, my OpenOffice.org is a compiled one.

There might be people out there who use Gentoo as OS of choice for daily work and use KDE PIM for a reason (this whole communication/calendar thingy). With Strigi this is not possible. My notebook does not feature a 10000 rpm SCSI disk.

superstoned wrote:
And I do face similar issues as mentioned earlier in this thread, so I feel the pain, but it's the pain we all have to face when going through change. It'll be for the good, really. The upcoming KDE PIM apps will make good use of Nepomuk for their search, and they'll be a lot faster than the current series with a lot of mail.

Where is the benefit? What is improved with Strigi/Nepomuk/Akonadi?

For me the update to 4.4 made things worse. At every start of KDE Akonadi cannot be started due to race conditions. That's unstable software for me on a system built without general ~amd64 keyword. Connection between address book and KMail does not work properly an more, too. No display of contact pictures in mails, e.g.

superstoned wrote:
This innovative kind of stuff - while painful, can make the difference between a nice alternative copying the Win'95 paradigm or a compelling alternative offering the next generation desktop technology. We aim for the latter, our competition goes for the former. Power to them, but we aim higher. For that - we need help, both in terms of moral support and code.


Sure. Might be. But why don't stabilise this twinkling magic stuff in an own developer branch while maintaining a working, stable KDE4-for-users version?

As someone mentioned before, Gentoo is about choice. Just throwing in half-finished features without chance to disable them gave me no choice. So I am re-assessing my PIM application collection. Perhaps I find some replacement programs, perhaps I have to write my own utilities. Time will tell...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's basically a local triplestore for your files. Disabling strigi probably isn't a bad idea though.

Last edited by Ormaaj on Thu May 17, 2012 2:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a simple and clean way to disable Strigi file indexing system wide by default? There is an old <1GHz computer I have to administrate. KDE 4.3 works fine on it, but because I need USE=semantic-desktop for KMail 4.4.5, I'm afraid Strigi will slow down the computer too much. If someone wants it, then okay, it's his problem, but I want Strigi to be turned off by default. Is this possible?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although it's been in Windows OS with a GUI since ages, realizing what the text field box in the start menu of Windows Vista is good for gave me the creeps. Many windows people love putting all their files into the same directory, using directories only because it would take them an hour to find their poorly-named file somewhere between the thousand other files in their documents path. I have concerns about how well windows/ntfs can handle large directories, and now the requirement for a directory structure has gone. However and unlike my initial expectation not due to windows' file indexing, but rather to next to all of these people now using google-foo instead of local programs, removing their requirement to store documents on hard disk and making their data "easier to work with on different computers" by outsourcing its' storage to google while at the same time complaining about privacy issues of "Windows OS".

I don't mind nepomuk/strigi to EXIST, but why is it enabled per default for kde, and why do parts of kde DEPEND on it *or akonadi* ? I can easily reproduce konqueror/dolphin freezes due to nepomuk on any kde version using it, on any computer i was working with, including non-gentoo and BSD systems adminstrated by people other then me. I also remember one of my boxes crashed because i thought 1GiB memory is enough for simple desktopping ( yes, it's a verb now ) and i wouldn't need swap for running kde4 - my thoughts clearly didn't consider strigi.
Has memory/storage really become availible in such redundant amounts that we can just waste a Gigabyte for a database we're not using? Why are people complaining about Vista "wasting" resources then? After all, with strigi enabled, KDE on linux needs a way more "modern" amount of resources then Vista.

Put your home directory on NFS and use a "slow" ( and i'm not refering to ISDN or DSL, but rather fast or even gigabit ethernet ) or laggy link, then start kde and there you are: strigi indexing your NFS share, writing it's strigi-db back via NFS and blocking your home dir access for __some_time__ ( which becomes even funnier when your system partition is on the net accessed via that link, too )

Furthermore I wouldn't - or rather am not - use strigi even for the purpose it's made for, as sed/grep can do the similar for text files, zcat/bzcat/lzcat/... + sed/grep can do for archives, poppler + strstr or QRegExp will do for PDFs ( given that it would take me like 10 minutes to write a pdf-regex-search, though iirc poppler comes with a pdf->text convert program, so poppler + grep should be an alternative too ). I know strigi would search in all kinds of documents at once, but in the end i am very certain what kind of document i am searching, or at least i always was in the past.

</troll>

mrsteven wrote:
Is there a simple and clean way to disable Strigi file indexing system wide by default? There is an old <1GHz computer I have to administrate. KDE 4.3 works fine on it, but because I need USE=semantic-desktop for KMail 4.4.5, I'm afraid Strigi will slow down the computer too much. If someone wants it, then okay, it's his problem, but I want Strigi to be turned off by default. Is this possible?

system-settings -> workspace appearance and behavior -> desktop search -> strigi desktop search -> enable strigi checkbox.
It's not "global" but per user instead, though. You can, however, create a dummy user and copy it's pre-setup home directory on user-account-creation

EDIT: I just saw i can give ratings to my files with nepomuk. Quite funny that i can't give ratings to my songs in juk, where it would be alot more appropriate IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I am fed up with it.

Not only suffers this Akonadi experiment from race conditions. No, now it causes KMail to freeze in mid-typing just because it has problems with MySQL.

Yesterday I ditched Amarok because it required a running MySQL server (+embedded would not work anymore) just for managing a few song.

And, well, today I say Bye Bye Kontact. It was a long and productive time. But KDE4 deteriorates, going from KDE3(excellent)-with-eye-candy to aspiring-but-failing.

So long, and thanks for all the mail.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact, I'm quite happy with this situation :)

Some time ago I had to change KMail and Amarok to claws-mail and mpd+ncmpcpp - and they both are perfect, albeit the transition was quite painful at first.
And then, when I realized that I no longer use the rest of KDE stuff I switched to LXDE and than to awesome - which fits my needs so perfectly.

So without this crappy strigi, nepomuk and so on I would probably still be using Kmail, Amarok, waiting dozens of seconds for my desktop to show :)
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