Interested in switching to Gentoo !

cdahmedeh · n00b Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 12

Hello,

I have tried many distributions for the past year. My first linux distribution was Ubuntu, one year ago. It was very interesting and stuck with it. I tried Arch and Debian along the way, but I came back to Ubuntu. I have noticed though, that I like to customize my OS to a very specific manner, and I do lots of change from the default Ubuntu installation. I am not scared of the command line, and I have lots of experience using it. I don't mind spending a weekend setting up my box, documentation looks great anyways.

I have a few questions about Gentoo :
1. Once gentoo is setup properly to my liking, I am done ? Do I just do regular updates and enjoy my system and do changes if the need exists.
2. Gentoo is a rolling release, something that I find important. I am sick of the 6 months update of Ubuntu, I have to reformat everytime, and setup up my system. I have about 300kb of scripts to automate most of the changes but still requires some time. I don't plan on using experimental packages, I like to have relatively stable OS, though I'm not looking for something like Debian where the packages are really old. My question is : Do upgrades usually break a system like in Arch? or if I avoid experimental packages am I fine ?
3. Does compiling really take that long? I'm planning to do a stage3 install, and install things like OpenOffice.org, Firefox, etc in binary form. I have a Core 2 Duo CPU 2.2 GHz 4MB with 3GB of RAM.
4. If a package doesn't exist in the repository ? Can I do my own ebuild ? Is there good documentation for such thing ? Finally, are there external repositories which have exotic packages ? Links ?
5. I have an nVidia video card and I use my system for multimedia use sometimes. Is it easy to install restricted (that's what they call them on Ubuntu) packages in Gentoo ?
6. Package Manager front-ends ? What are the options ? I'm a avid user of Synaptic, I like to explore the repos and install packages ! Is there a frontend that feels like synatpic ? Is porthole an option ?
EDIT : More questions
7. How is the laptop power management ? I have a laptop and would like to extend battery life as much as possible !
8. I want to run an Xfce desktop. Any precautions ?

Thanks, I plan on switching when my exams are over, so I don't get addicted to my system at the wrong time !

platojones · Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:41 am Post subject:

1) Yes and no...things change and require some work sometimes...not very often, but it happens.

2) Not often...and if you stay on top of the forums, you probably will never be caught off-guard. And even if you are caught off-guard, somebody will have a work-around or fix within the hour.

3) Not with your system...and I have never had a problem with this anyway. Aside from the initial install or OpenOffice, I just let upgrades and installs run the background and deal with whatever I'm working on or enjoying at the moment until it finishes.

4) Yes...ebuilds aren't that hard to write...though *almost* anything you want already has an ebuild in the portage tree or an overlay. Even then, if you can't find it, you'll often find the ebuild in the bug database to build what you want.

5) Depends on the specific card. Gentoo is pretty much in line with any current distro out there.

6) I recommend the command line approach to package management...emerge...it is very good. But yes, there are gui versions out there...but emerge is very intuitive.

Those are my opinions. Hope they help.

cdahmedeh · n00b Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 12

Thank you for the answers ! Very useful. Community seems to be very responsive !

platojones · Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:53 am Post subject:

aguettinger · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 26 Sep 2003 Posts: 83

1. Basically yes. There is however always the risk that something goes wrong while updating the system, although in my experience that doesn't happen very often (I use the stable tree with some unstable packages). There are probably as many strategies about how to update your system as there are gentoo users. I personally sync my system every other week and update if there is something major (like a new version of the xorg-server etc). Others prefer to do it more rarely and when they have enough time in case something breaks.
I may add here, there is a bit a learning curve at the beginning to get used to the package manager (portage) and what to do when something doesn't go smoothly, like when packages are blocking each other etc. But the documentation is plenty and the forum is one of the best.
2. Rolling releases have advantages and disadvantages. I'm using gentoo since the 2006 version on my amd64 and never had to 'reinstall'. Not once. I 'upgraded' from 2006 to 2007 to 2008 to 10.0 release. Upgrading to another major release is normally done by just selecting a new profile. Normally no recompiling required, because you have already the newest packages.
There are however situations where it is highly recommended to recompile the whole system, like when you switch to a new major release of gcc (like from gcc4.1 to gcc4.3). Happens rarely, but that can take a day or two. I had to do this maybe 3-4 times since 2006.
3. Compiling takes some hours when you initially set up you system or rebuild you whole system. After that it is a breeze. I have a single cpu Athlon 3400 and the only binary package I use is OpenOffice. I used to use the binary for firefox, but more because of flash. Now since we have 64bit flash I don't use the binary anymore for firefox because compiling it is really quite fast.
4. If a package is not supported by the official portage tree but you need it first thing to do is checking the overlays, because chances are somebody else already felt the same and did already write an ebuild. Overlays are package trees with additional packages that are distributed separately from the gentoo tree. You can read more about Overlays here.
5. There are ebuilds that install the proprietary nvidia drivers in gentoo, so you can emerge them just like any other package.
6. Don't know much about that. I never felt the requirement for a GUI front end to portage. Maybe others know more about that. The directory where portages ebuilds are stored is very well structured and to search for something you can just use emerge --search partofpackagename.
7. I only have desktops running with gentoo, but from what I know power management is good and as you can exactly decide yourself what you want to install on your laptop with gentoo you can get most of battery live.
8. No problems at all with Xfce. I would guess it's one of the most widely used DEs on gentoo next to gnome and KDE.

Initial setup and configuration can take some time but is very well documented. I would plan in plenty of time, a weekend is probably enough if everything goes smoothly but that's not always the case on the first install.
_________________
regards
- andy

cdahmedeh · n00b Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 12

I'm trying Gentoo in a VM right now. There is something not clear. Is a stage3 install just using a precompiled kernel ? Or do I still need to compile it, because that's what it says in the handbook.

John R. Graham · Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject:

Follow the Handbook. The precompiled kernel on the install media is just to boot the install media. You need to compile your own.

- John
_________________
Yoda: "Intentionally left blank, this space is."

d2_racing · Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject:

Or you can use Genkernel if you want to compile your kernel the easy way.
_________________
Sysadmin of Funtoo-Québec.org
Wiki
Signature
IRC on Freenode : #funtoo-quebec

cdahmedeh · n00b Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 12

Curiously.. just for reference ? How long does it take to compile a kernel from Stage 3 on a Core 2 Duo 2.2 Ghz machine ? I'm planning to use x86, I have 3gigs of ram, amd64 won't give much benefit.

gerard82 · Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject:

About 15 minutes.
Gerard.
_________________
To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has Firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download

Exil · Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject:

It really depends what you compile into kernel. More mean more time to compile.
On mine Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.40GHz it takes 5 mins.

dol-sen · Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:35 am Post subject:

Ok, for question #6 Porthole is similar to synaptic I've been told over the years. As was said emerge is very easy to use and extremely powerfull. A gui is best used for package browsing, searching out info, etc... It also has the more commonly used emerge capabilities usually just a click away. There are more "Advanced Emerge" capabilities as well as custom commands available, but its terminal is not designed for general use (yet).

As for dependencies porthole is gtk based only and does not require a whole bunch of gnome deps. It integrates with an xfce desktop nicely. If you decide you don't like the interface there is another gtk frontend called portato that does things a little differently. There is also a haskel based gtk front-end called Himerge as well.

Everything else seems to have been answered very well already.

Enjoy gentoo as I have these many years.
_________________
Brian
Porthole, the Portage GUI frontend irc@freenode: #gentoo-guis, #porthole, Blog
layman, gentoolkit, CoreBuilder, esearch...

cdahmedeh · n00b Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 12

So far so good, I've been playing with in a virtual machine ! A few more comments/questions :

-Takes a long time to compile everything, but it seems worthwhile !
-Everything seems to run much faster ! Amazing firefox startup speed !
-Boot up time is around 20 seconds in a Virtual Machine ! Very good, but is there any way to make faster ? Tweaks, tips, documents, etc. Will it be possible to boot in 10 seconds for example ?
-Porthole is a very nice front-end, and I love the package selection. The overlays are the icing on the cake. Almost everything is there !

Thanks, it looks like I'm going enjoy it in here !

platojones · Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject:

cdahmedeh · n00b Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 12

OK, I have installed the new versions of init according to the provided documentations and enable parallel startup. I have only one word for this :

WOW !!!!

My Virtual Machine booted up in 11 seconds to login!!!! That is indeed insane, can't wait to see this kind of performance on my real machine. Just so impressive !

peje · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 11 Jan 2003 Posts: 76

don't forget the compile time for X-server and Desktopenvironment is much longer than to build a kernel...

platojones · Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject:

Cool that you are learning it with a VM...you can snapshot the VM, screw it up and then revert right back to a functioning version and try again. It's a good way to learn and experiment with Gentoo.

d2_racing · Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:00 am Post subject:

Compiling a Gentoo box inside a WM must be very long ? Am I right ?
_________________
Sysadmin of Funtoo-Québec.org
Wiki
Signature
IRC on Freenode : #funtoo-quebec

erik258 · Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:06 am Post subject:

I would imagine running without the vm would be even faster than running inside a vm, although it might take longer to boot. I'm not sure, but the vm might provide a simplified view of the hardware; without the vm the kernel might need to do a little more work to poll devices and it might take a little longer. But once it's up and running it should be faster than the vm.

for even more speed, look into prelink and potentially preload. also consider using a fast filesystem - i mean, not ext3. i recommend reiser, haven't played with ext4 much, xfs is for the birds imho (poor crash recovery)

incidentally, when you're ready to do the 'real' install, you probably only need to copy the files from your vm to a hd partition (if not already there) and maybe touch up a few things. one great thing about gentoo is once the install is done you know where all the config settings are, and you can pretty easily just move the files around, update the kernel root= parameter and fstab, and reboot into a gentoo-native environment.

yeah, gentoo totally kicks the crap out of any other distro I've ever seen. absolutely perfect for someone like you, comfortable w command line and wants to customize everything.

cdahmedeh · n00b Joined: 19 Nov 2009 Posts: 12

erik258 · Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject:

I trust reiserfs not to loose my data except in extreme cases. I've had very good luck with reiser on this front, and it's certainly faster than ext3. I don't trust xfs with data in crash scenarios; I've seen it lose data in this situation before. As for ext4, I'm too inexperienced with it to say for sure. I did a sysbench on both like this :

sysbench --num-threads=16 --test=fileio --file-total-size=3G --file-test-mode=rndrw prepare

both in logical volumes on the same device, first reiser, second ext4. Here are my results:

REISER

d2_racing · Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the benchmark, can you run it with EXT3 just to see, if EXT4 is faster then EXT3 ?
_________________
Sysadmin of Funtoo-Québec.org
Wiki
Signature
IRC on Freenode : #funtoo-quebec

erik258 · Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject:

Sure. I'm going to be doing a more comprehensive benchmark tonight and also comparing against feebsd. The results, which I expect many to find interresting, will be made available here
_________________
Configuring a Firewall? Try my iptables configuration
LinuxCommando.com is my blog for linux-related scraps and tidbits. Stop by for a visit!

d2_racing · Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject:

Ok thanks

_________________
Sysadmin of Funtoo-Québec.org
Wiki
Signature
IRC on Freenode : #funtoo-quebec

yngwin · Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject:

Reiser4 for the win!
_________________
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF