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kiko
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: kde 4.1 when ? Reply with quote

hi all,i'm asking when kde 4.1 which has just been released (really stable) will be in gentoo official support instead of 4.0 ???
thanks
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devsk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

typically from the historical data perspective, its about a week. The overlay ebuilds work well enough, so we may see it faster this time.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:28 pm    Post subject: New KDE 4.1 release Reply with quote

Okok, the subject is only half the truth in this thread. But now I am sure I have your attention.

There was a time, when I was proud to be a gentoo user. But those times are over. Mostly. When I first used gentoo back in 2001 it was a cool distribution, always on the bleeding edge, always for the geeks and nerds and always up-to-date. I had releases before any other Distro even compiled the packages. There were some bugs, naturally. But there was always a tweak or workarround. Seven Years are quite a time.

Of course we had to boldly unmask what we wanted so urgent no warnings could help. We used the unstable tree and were aware of the problems that might occur. But I never ever had to reinstall. In the forum there was always a fix for my exact problem. Minutes after I discovered it. But it was fun, playing arround, understanding the distribution and ... of course ... have things others still dreamed of.

Now even Debian (experimental) has 4.1 packages before gentoo. All those mainstream *buntu User have it, had the rc1, had the beta versions, without a layman, a overlay or something, just out of the main distribution, yes even SuSE packages were available. And it's not a KDE related problem. Other new releases take also a lot of time, getting into the portage tree. It became, from an outside view, all bloated and dull.

Today there was a release of KDE (or yesterday, depending on your timezone). And I can't find any information when I can emerge it. You say I am impatient. Yes, I am. Therefor I became a gentoo user in the first place.

I have to deal with plenty of compilation, I have to deal with config files. But I do no longer have the chance to get packages early. KDE4.1beta was out for a long time now, enough time to write and test ebuilds, to verify them with rc1 finally and to have them ready the day the project ships the final release. So was it dealt with some time ago.

I am a little bit disappointed and I like to share my thoughts. Am I alone wondering why in the forum there are so few places where is talked over kde 4.1. Am I alone wondering why there is no information when it will be ready (I see you are not magicians, but a rough guess would be nice). Am I alone wondering if there is a other nice distribution, small, lean and up-to-date? Or if Kubuntu maybe is the right choice for me?

Am I alone wanting KDE 4.1 in the portage tree better today than tomorrow?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry for posting a partial dupe with http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-702173.html but it got quite lengthy and took some time to write. ;)

--Mod edit: i92guboj. ignore the link, both threads have been merged.
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devsk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sort of share your opinion. Other distributions have resources to build from the sources, test it out and put it out on the same day as the official KDE website. Whereas we, building from source, don't even have something to build in the *official* tree.

But it all boils down to resources! So, become one if you care! Otherwise, be nice and just wait!


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_puck_
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny, you mention this too, I started an approach back in 2005 to give something back to the gentoo community http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-2336153-highlight-.html#2336153, but nothing came out of that very try.

Now I have a job, a wife, a child and a house and do not have as much spare time as I like to have. I am still interested in helping gentoo (I am used to linux && gentoo quite a bit ;)) but I don't want to beg for my help to be accepted. I just don't get the starting point. so I am just a local linux nerd, helping as a missionary lost windows souls here in the area.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

_puck_ wrote:
Funny, you mention this too.
ok, its not funny anymore....:-) I think I used that line wrongly! What I meant was the irony of building from source (which btw requires a build system just like basic portage), testing it, and putting it out as binary compared to just building from source. It is about 3 times more work. Either portage and our ebuild system is so broken that we are not able to do 1/3rd of a job in equal time or we have less than 1/3rd of resources compared to, let's say, kubuntu.

And my take is that we have 1/3rd resources.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree 100% with your thoughts and I have some others to give, but I don't have the time at the moment..
People say is because lack of developers, but the truth is that I know a lot of people that will help the project myself included if it was
not because the hard headed upstream top of the hill people that drives the project that makes it difficult for anyone to because a maintainer of a ebuild ....
but like I say I don't have time, I still love gentoo but I am not in the hooney moon anymore, I still give talks about it and create ebuilds and help but is just not the same since
they started to try to make the distro a "Regular" one and easy for everyone is when it started to suck for us the "software mechanics" that likes to play with software and don't mind to be 2 days compiling just to get that edge of funtionality..
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are ebuilds for kde-4.1, and they were there a few days ago already. You just need to add the kdesvn-portage overlay, available in layman.

On a different note, we are understaffed (especially considering we maintain over 25000 ebuilds on a wide range of architectures). So if you think Gentoo can do better, please join and help out.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, cool then what can I do to be a kde ebuild maitainer for example? the last time I try to help people keep telling me to
wait and post things to bugzilla..but see I don't have time to wait.. is or I help or I don't..
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's ready when it's ready - not a minute later. Promised.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
There are ebuilds for kde-4.1, and they were there a few days ago already. You just need to add the kdesvn-portage overlay, available in layman.

Is there any way to equery overlays without adding them?
yngwin wrote:
On a different note, we are understaffed (especially considering we maintain over 25000 ebuilds on a wide range of architectures). So if you think Gentoo can do better, please join and help out.

I do not mean to get off topic more, but as far as I understand it we cannot just "join and help out." You have to choose us. The best thing people like me can do is post bugs in Bugzilla and expect completely unpredictable results. Sometimes response is prompt (thank you Gentoo devs); issues get resolved and things get done. Other times bugs just pile on and get ignored. I have some time and skills, but I cannot seem to find a way to contribute effectively. In the end, I do not think Gentoo is able to make use of the potential "time and effort" that can be harnessed from its community.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo it seems has very closed policy when it comes to devs. Even when you want to help, you've got time and resources to do so, it's very hard to become a dev. Devs are trying to keep their numbers low apparently. It's quite funny, even if you visit fedora project website there are links everywhere how YOU can contribute. Ever seen it in gentoo? In gentoo, you can fix bugs in bugzilla, upload new ebuilds and and the end of the day _almost_ no one gives a shit really. Check out how many bugs are fixed by "users" and still marked as opened, because no one even looked at them...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not completely true. There is e.g. sunrise which is more or less a playground for i-wannabe-real-dev-one-day persons.
Beeing dev doesn't mean (only) to maintain ebuilds; there are others writing/translating documentation or even (like me) doing forums work.
And yes even getting the message out to the people about how when and where they can contribute is work someone has to do and keep this info up2date afterwards.

But this gets offtopic for this thread.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just get it from the kdesvn-portage overlay. I already have it installed and am trying to iron out all the configurations.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand the use of sunrise is discouraged. I remember reading somewhere that its existence was not to be widely publicized in Gentoo media.
I have tried translating and I respect everyone who does it. So far I was not able to keep up with the SVN tree.

Anyway, trying to get back on topic. I believe the original question is why isn't KDE 4.1 in the portage tree. Then yngwin pointer out that there are ebuilds in the kdesvn-portage overlay. So my question is why not the portage tree? And if the ebuilds have to be in an overlay, how do we find out about their existence conveniently, for example with something like equery.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

node_one wrote:
how do we find out about their existence conveniently, for example with something like equery.
equery or even eix only helps if you only have the euilds locally.
So you would have to first know the ebuild exists in the overlay in the first place, so we are at the same point how do we know the ebuild actually exist for some package in the first place?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
There are ebuilds for kde-4.1, and they were there a few days ago already. You just need to add the kdesvn-portage overlay, available in layman.


That was part of my point. I don't see, why they are not already on the main portage tree. They are *almost* stable, they are already there. So they _could_ be in the unstable tree. That's what it was there for in the first place.

yngwin wrote:
On a different note, we are understaffed (especially considering we maintain over 25000 ebuilds on a wide range of architectures). So if you think Gentoo can do better, please join and help out.


Like some other posters have said: I have some time and really think I have some skills but I don't know where to start helping out. I am more the technical person, than a social engineer (like forum mod's; i know it is a lot of work and it needs to be done). I _really_ would like to get involved and take some responsibilities but, the barriers are quite high finding a hole where to fit in, I searched for about three years now.

I definitely don't want to say Dev's are slow and lazy, they are offering their time to do some very hard work. I can guess not everything is always milk and honey with the Dev's, but I also think I think gentoo has a lot of potential which is not yet used.

To get back to topic: For my understanding it would be very cool and geeky if gentoo had those releases which are in all (it-)media ready to emerge of course only in the unstable tree (or even for a try to emerge) on the day it ships, like it was some years ago. That would be some good publicity and may attract more users to a distrubution with an excellent conecpt.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Desktop Environments to Gentoo Chat.

Not a support question, just discussion about Gentoo. So moved here.

Also, merged two threads.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shaumux wrote:
node_one wrote:
how do we find out about their existence conveniently, for example with something like equery.
equery or even eix only helps if you only have the euilds locally.
So you would have to first know the ebuild exists in the overlay in the first place, so we are at the same point how do we know the ebuild actually exist for some package in the first place?

Not quite true - eix has "eix-remote" updates which allow you to retrieve cached lists of packages in some of its overlays. See: http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/genstef/2006/11/03/searching_for_ebuilds_in_overlays_that_a
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are discussing two issues here: the inclusion in portage of the kde-4.1 release (which is what the topic title says) and the (im)possibilities of contributing to Gentoo. I think it would be better to keep these separate, especially because in my opinion the latter subject warrants its own thread. I will gather the most important points mentioned here and open a new thread in a little while. I will then also discuss the same topic on one of the gentoo mailing lists to get a wider discussion going. Finally, I have been planning to start writing an official document on the various ways to contribute to Gentoo. I know there are many people willing to do something, but don't because of (perceived or real) barriers.

So, here I made three promises, and please make sure I keep these. :wink:

Edit: The first I made good in http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-702248.html - please continue there!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
We are discussing two issues here: the inclusion in portage of the kde-4.1 release (which is what the topic title says) and the (im)possibilities of contributing to Gentoo. I think it would be better to keep these separate, especially because in my opinion the latter subject warrants its own thread. I will gather the most important points mentioned here and open a new thread in a little while. I will then also discuss the same topic on one of the gentoo mailing lists to get a wider discussion going. Finally, I have been planning to start writing an official document on the various ways to contribute to Gentoo. I know there are many people willing to do something, but don't because of (perceived or real) barriers.

So, here I made three promises, and please make sure I keep these. :wink:


Go yngwin!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny, how the little and undermanned Arch Linux already had three KDE 4.1 releases in their main repos, and now they're not even in testing or unstable anymore.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Someone Above has Said, "Go yngwin!" Please move this comment to your thread when you set it up...
To add to your claim that there are many people willing, wanting, waiting to help with gentoo, I ask how many overlays there are out there... about a billion. Those who run overlays are greatly desiring to help with gentoo, but haven't/can't get into the dev community. in fact, they've quit waiting. I know I could get involved with bugday http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/bugday/index.xml, but I'm already doing that on bugs.gentoo.org with the few patches/ebuilds I can come up with.
I'm just saying I think there are many devs available, much better than I, doing overlays.

yngwin wrote:
We are discussing two issues here: the inclusion in portage of the kde-4.1 release (which is what the topic title says) and the (im)possibilities of contributing to Gentoo. I think it would be better to keep these separate, especially because in my opinion the latter subject warrants its own thread. I will gather the most important points mentioned here and open a new thread in a little while. I will then also discuss the same topic on one of the gentoo mailing lists to get a wider discussion going. Finally, I have been planning to start writing an official document on the various ways to contribute to Gentoo. I know there are many people willing to do something, but don't because of (perceived or real) barriers.

So, here I made three promises, and please make sure I keep these. :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading this post looking for the latest news on when I could get my hands on KDE 4.1 I feel compelled to add a couple of comments. Like many others I have been using Gentoo for several years. My reasons for it being my favorite are: 1) access to the latest packages, 2) speed from building from source, and 3) a great way to learn how stuff works in Linux.

First, I don't feel like #1 is really true any more. Every time I see a major release of something like KDE I find myself questioning if I should stay with Gentoo because the others guys already have it and I don't. I end up reading about how xyz distro already has package abc and think that maybe its now time to finally switch. And every time I get that much closer to dumping the distro I love just so I get get the latest applications.

Secondly, the comments about limited resources I am sure are true. But even with x-thousand packages to maintain there is still an option of setting priorities. KDE has got to be (or should be in the top 10 list of packages getting attention - and resources). Most of those x-thousand packages are stuff that probably less than 2% of the Gentoo community uses so lack of resources doesn't float with me. The allocation of those resources is the real issue.

I'd like to see work stop on the latest biorhythm package and see people form a fire brigade to get KDE 4.1 out the door.
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