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AllenJB
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

node_one wrote:
Could you clarify what "trying to become a developer" is? Some people might think they are "trying", but from your point of view they are not.


If people are trying to become a developer in their own view, then that counts.

If people are finding it difficult to become a developer, or have tried in the past and not been successful, it might be useful for them to detail how they've gone about it and what problems they've come up against.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
If people are trying to become a developer in their own view, then that counts.
Counts for what? I would agree that if people are doing things that have potential benefit to other users that counts as a contribution, but how do you qualify/quantify effort that leads to someone becoming a developer?
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I do not have good answers to beandog's questions. I believe I contribute to Gentoo to the best of my ability and I plan on continuing to do that. At this point, I am not sure that becoming an official developer is the best way I can work to improve Gentoo. I perceive the cultural differences to be too great and currently I do not expect to ever become an official developer.

Having said that, I would accept some guidance so I can direct my efforts to worthy causes. I should not waste time working on open issues and making patches etc. for things that nobody cares about to even acknowledge with a response. :|
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

node_one wrote:
AllenJB wrote:
If people are trying to become a developer in their own view, then that counts.
Counts for what?

Counts as someone beandog (and other developers) want to hear from.

Quote:
I would agree that if people are doing things that have potential benefit to other users that counts as a contribution, but how do you qualify/quantify effort that leads to someone becoming a developer?

Er, where does that come into this situation? Some people don't want to be devs. I, for example, would love to become a dev but simply don't believe I'll have the time this year to commit as I'm in my final year of uni and want to concentrate on that.

As stated before, if you want to become a developer, you don't have to wait to be asked. You can go on IRC and ask to become one (anyone with ops (@ in front of their name) in #gentoo or a #gentoo-* channel is generally a developer and will be able to help you with this).

Quote:
____________________

I do not have good answers to beandog's questions. I believe I contribute to Gentoo to the best of my ability and I plan on continuing to do that. At this point, I am not sure that becoming an official developer is the best way I can work to improve Gentoo. I perceive the cultural differences to be too great and currently I do not expect to ever become an official developer.

Having said that, I would accept some guidance so I can direct my efforts to worthy causes. I should not waste time working on open issues and making patches etc. for things that nobody cares about to even acknowledge with a response. :|


While it's true that there can be a lot of politics and arguments within the dev community, there are many developers who quietly beaver away without ever getting involved in the politics.

With regards to guidance, do talk to the developers who are involved in the areas you're interested in. They're not going to refuse your help just because you don't want to become a full developer. If you don't know who to talk to, ask in #gentoo or #gentoo-dev-help - there are often active developers monitoring those channels - if they don't know they'll know how to find out =)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@yngwin
Can you update us? And perhaps reply to my comment i posted two weeks ago?

In the meanwhile things look problematic:

Quote:
The release engineering team is looking for new volunteers because it perpetually has a severe lack of manpower.

http://www.gentoo.org/

Code:
Year    New Developers    Developers Retired    Net
2003    22    26    -4
2004    76    94    -18
2005    35    114    -79
2006    47    120    -73
2007    35    152    -117
2008 (to date)    19    127    -108

http://www.forwardcamegrendel.org/decline-gentoo-linux
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
http://www.forwardcamegrendel.org/decline-gentoo-linux
For completeness, this was mentioned in the DistroWatch Weekly
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
@yngwin
Can you update us? And perhaps reply to my comment i posted two weeks ago?

In the meanwhile things look problematic:

Quote:
The release engineering team is looking for new volunteers because it perpetually has a severe lack of manpower.

http://www.gentoo.org/

Code:
Year    New Developers    Developers Retired    Net
2003    22    26    -4
2004    76    94    -18
2005    35    114    -79
2006    47    120    -73
2007    35    152    -117
2008 (to date)    19    127    -108

http://www.forwardcamegrendel.org/decline-gentoo-linux

The numbers in that article have been corrected, though they are still not completely right. The numbers you quoted are completely off-track (see comments)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

node_one wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
http://www.forwardcamegrendel.org/decline-gentoo-linux
For completeness, this was mentioned in the DistroWatch Weekly

And I said the same in this thread about two weeks ago :wink:

Genone wrote:
The numbers in that article have been corrected, though they are still not completely right. The numbers you quoted are completely off-track (see comments)

This doesn't matter, the trend remains downwards and causing noticeable problems (as can be read on the homepage). Don't get me wrong; I love Gentoo and I want it to thrive, but we have to acknowledge first that there is a serious problem (lack of manpower) which we need to address asap.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People: STOP FOCUSING ON THAT NUMBER! IT IS NOT HELPING!

Personally, I'm of the opinion that GMN shouldn't even publish the developer retirements. I believe it causes too much confusion with those who don't know the Gentoo development community and causes people to focus on a single, fairly meaningless number when talking about Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
People: STOP FOCUSING ON THAT NUMBER! IT IS NOT HELPING!

Personally, I'm of the opinion that GMN shouldn't even publish the developer retirements. I believe it causes too much confusion with those who don't know the Gentoo development community and causes people to focus on a single, fairly meaningless number when talking about Gentoo.


Ignoring the problem usually makes things worse. As I said it is not about the exact number, it's about the general trend which is that there are more developers leaving then joining. And this is causing real problems for Gentoo right now.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
AllenJB wrote:
People: STOP FOCUSING ON THAT NUMBER! IT IS NOT HELPING!

Personally, I'm of the opinion that GMN shouldn't even publish the developer retirements. I believe it causes too much confusion with those who don't know the Gentoo development community and causes people to focus on a single, fairly meaningless number when talking about Gentoo.


Ignoring the problem usually makes things worse. As I said it is not about the exact number, it's about the general trend which is that there are more developers leaving then joining. And this is causing real problems for Gentoo right now.


But we're NOT ignoring the problem. The entire point of this thread is to discuss how to improve recruitment. What REALLY doesn't help is continually repeating the mantra "we're losing developers! OMG OMG! Gentoo is dead already!"
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

--

Last edited by 96140 on Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
everyone else:
Let me first state that generally, Gentoo maintains about 250 developers. That number may fluctuate some over the months and years, but it's a good ballpark figure.. It's rather ridiculous to panic because 30 developers are retired over a 3-month period, when really, they each had 10 commits or less over the previous 4 years. Yes, this is what actually goes on; we even created a new project specifically to remove the deadweight, the folks who went MIA, and who otherwise haven't done anything, ever. Ya'll shouldn't be freaking out that they're doing their jobs.
...
As for the rest of the developers who announce their departure or are otherwise retired, well, we have new devs stepping up all the time. That's the open source world for you.


You said exactly the same in a previous thread but you still haven't answered to gentoo-dev's rebuttal:

gentoo-dev wrote:
nightmorph wrote:
Okay, stop freaking out. Ten or more folks leaving/joining Gentoo is entirely normal
It's not tens leaving/joining but tens leaving and fewer joining.
Looking at GMNs since January: -30 +4 , +1, -26 +3, +2, -3 +7, -16 +4, -1 +1, -10 +1
Total -86 +23, Balance -63

The fact that they were retired because thay have been long inactive only makes things worse since they actually stop contributing sooner and are yet to be replaced. This hints that more devs are likely to be retired, looking at the dev list does not help considering the number of Away tags (40 if I counted right)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should be noted that GWN numbers about changes in the dev pool haven't always been accurate (as there was no reliable way to get that data in the past), not sure how accurate they've been since the switch to GMN. So drawing any conclusions based on those numbers is mostly nonsense. Mind I'm not saying that your conclusion itself is wrong (or right), but basing it on an unreliable data source doesn't help to get your point across. Comparing the roll-call page from now with its state one year ago would probably get you a more accurate result (unfortunately it's not available on sources.gentoo.org for privacy reasons, so you'd have to ask DevRel for an old copy).
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:
IComparing the roll-call page from now with its state one year ago would probably get you a more accurate result (unfortunately it's not available on sources.gentoo.org for privacy reasons, so you'd have to ask DevRel for an old copy).


*gets very curious* I think it's very important to look at that first. That way we can determine if the amount of developers is shrinking (my hypothesis) or stable (nightmorph's hypothesis). Then we can take adequate measures. It would also be very good idea to have a retention policy for retiring devs.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
Genone wrote:
IComparing the roll-call page from now with its state one year ago would probably get you a more accurate result (unfortunately it's not available on sources.gentoo.org for privacy reasons, so you'd have to ask DevRel for an old copy).


*gets very curious* I think it's very important to look at that first. That way we can determine if the amount of developers is shrinking (my hypothesis) or stable (nightmorph's hypothesis). Then we can take adequate measures. It would also be very good idea to have a retention policy for retiring devs.


Why are you so bothered about those numbers? And not retiring inactive devs isn't going to make them any more active. Whatever the numbers say, Gentoo needs more man power (and probably always will, as with most open source projects). Why not just concentrate on coming up with and pushing through ideas to improve recruitment and contributions.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:
It should be noted that GWN numbers about changes in the dev pool haven't always been accurate (as there was no reliable way to get that data in the past), not sure how accurate they've been since the switch to GMN.
Why are the numbers inaccurate? Is it that there are no established procedures to produce accurate numbers? Can you produce accurate, verifiable numbers?

I look at the dev numbers every time a GMN is released. Bugzilla and dev numbers very important parts of the GMN, IMHO. Please do not remove them.
AllenJB wrote:
Why are you so bothered about those numbers?
I am not bothered by the numbers, yet. I think percent change per project would be more indicative of what is going on since Gentoo projects are quite autonomous.

I am curious, do other distributions actually publish these numbers?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

node_one wrote:
Genone wrote:
It should be noted that GWN numbers about changes in the dev pool haven't always been accurate (as there was no reliable way to get that data in the past), not sure how accurate they've been since the switch to GMN.
Why are the numbers inaccurate?

Because there hasn't always been a formal protocol for retirements.
Quote:
Can you produce accurate, verifiable numbers?

No, as I'm not interested in it. As said, the most accurate way is probably to compare the roll-call lists if you can get your hands on older copies. Mind that's just what I think as a long-term observer, as I've never been involved in recruitment or retirement of developers.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone, thanks for clarifying.

I am going to rephrase my question: Can accurate, verifiable results be produced?

I guess if devrel, or the roll-call sub-project, has access to the information they can and should produce the numbers and cooperate with PR/GMN to have them published.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
Genone wrote:
IComparing the roll-call page from now with its state one year ago would probably get you a more accurate result (unfortunately it's not available on sources.gentoo.org for privacy reasons, so you'd have to ask DevRel for an old copy).


*gets very curious* I think it's very important to look at that first. That way we can determine if the amount of developers is shrinking (my hypothesis) or stable (nightmorph's hypothesis). Then we can take adequate measures. It would also be very good idea to have a retention policy for retiring devs.


Why are you so bothered about those numbers? And not retiring inactive devs isn't going to make them any more active. Whatever the numbers say, Gentoo needs more man power (and probably always will, as with most open source projects).
.
Because those numbers tel you something. For example if lots of people join but also leave within a year the cause is worth investigating. Without numbers you can't run a business. Retention policy means you ask people who are leaving why they want to leave in order to improve your infrastructure it doesn't mean not retiring devs.

AllenJB wrote:
Why not just concentrate on coming up with and pushing through ideas to improve recruitment and contributions.

I already did that, I'm still waiting for response from yngwin. I think the solution is simple and pretty straightforward. This problem is known for a while now but nobody fixes it. IThe bureaucracy involved with Gentoo is astounding.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
AllenJB wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
Genone wrote:
IComparing the roll-call page from now with its state one year ago would probably get you a more accurate result (unfortunately it's not available on sources.gentoo.org for privacy reasons, so you'd have to ask DevRel for an old copy).


*gets very curious* I think it's very important to look at that first. That way we can determine if the amount of developers is shrinking (my hypothesis) or stable (nightmorph's hypothesis). Then we can take adequate measures. It would also be very good idea to have a retention policy for retiring devs.


Why are you so bothered about those numbers? And not retiring inactive devs isn't going to make them any more active. Whatever the numbers say, Gentoo needs more man power (and probably always will, as with most open source projects).
.
Because those numbers tel you something. For example if lots of people join but also leave within a year the cause is worth investigating. Without numbers you can't run a business. Retention policy means you ask people who are leaving why they want to leave in order to improve your infrastructure it doesn't mean not retiring devs.

Numbers alone won't tell you this - you'd need to look at the amount of time each was a developer and their contributions during that time (cvs commits to the portage tree alone won't tell you this, you'd need to look at documentation contributions, overlays and bugzilla activity too).

AllenJB wrote:
Why not just concentrate on coming up with and pushing through ideas to improve recruitment and contributions.

I already did that, I'm still waiting for response from yngwin. I think the solution is simple and pretty straightforward. This problem is known for a while now but nobody fixes it. IThe bureaucracy involved with Gentoo is astounding.[/quote]

Looking at what people have been saying about trying to become a developer, I don't believe retention is an issue. Giving people a title or an email address is not, in my opinion, going to make the any more likely to contribute. The problem is that those who do want to contribute don't know who to go to find out where they can focus their efforts or don't know how the development process actually works in the first place.

People don't like being told "just go fix bugs in bugzilla" because they don't realise that this is a large portion of what developers actually do.


You say Gentoo has too much bureaucracy - can you give any examples of this?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:

Because those numbers tel you something. For example if lots of people join but also leave within a year the cause is worth investigating. Without numbers you can't run a business. Retention policy means you ask people who are leaving why they want to leave in order to improve your infrastructure it doesn't mean not retiring devs.

...

I already did that, I'm still waiting for response from yngwin. I think the solution is simple and pretty straightforward. This problem is known for a while now but nobody fixes it. IThe bureaucracy involved with Gentoo is astounding.


While your interest in getting some facts is commendable, some of your assumptions (that I'm perceiving) are wrong.

For one, we're not running a business.

Secondly, I get the impression that you feel that # of developers is the key component. It's worth pointing out that just because we have a lot of developers, the thing that makes a difference is active developers. Those who retire or are retired have stopped working on Gentoo for a long time. There is *very* rarely a case where an active developer just quits and leaves suddenly (I can only think of two or three instances of the top of my head, for the past few years).

Third, that "nobody is fixing it." The requirements and process for becoming a developer has changed very little in a long time. The burden lies on the user who wants to become a developer. If they try, they will succeed. Simple as that. If they don't try, they won't. Active recruiting doesn't work, because you will have a lot of people who will step up and want to be trained and want to have a @gentoo.org email address, but don't have the persistence and willingness to actually work. Most users who become devs already have been working on Gentoo, so the transition is usually nothing more than educating them on policies and ebuild standards -- if you look at the dev quizzes, that's what they cover.

If you want to go ahead and do some research and crunch some numbers on why people are leaving, I say go for it. A statistical report could be interesting. You can check gentoo-dev ML for when people are retiring and what their public reasons are for. You can look at recruitment bugs also.

One other thing, for actual commit numbers, check out CIA.

http://cia.vc/stats/project/gentoo

You'll probably find that most of the work is done by a very small subset of developers (about 10% in my estimation). Each developer does not give an equal amount of work.

Edit: meh, kinda screwed up quoting
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
For one, we're not running a business.

Well that is a matter of opinion (I did not meant business in the literal sense).

Quote:
Secondly, I get the impression that you feel that # of developers is the key component. It's worth pointing out that just because we have a lot of developers, the thing that makes a difference is active developers. Those who retire or are retired have stopped working on Gentoo for a long time. There is *very* rarely a case where an active developer just quits and leaves suddenly (I can only think of two or three instances of the top of my head, for the past few years).

Very valid point indeed. However even when ignoring numbers the lack of manpower is noticeable throughout Gentoo.

Quote:
Third, that "nobody is fixing it." The requirements and process for becoming a developer has changed very little in a long time. The burden lies on the user who wants to become a developer. If they try, they will succeed. Simple as that. If they don't try, they won't. Active recruiting doesn't work, because you will have a lot of people who will step up and want to be trained and want to have a @gentoo.org email address, but don't have the persistence and willingness to actually work. Most users who become devs already have been working on Gentoo, so the transition is usually nothing more than educating them on policies and ebuild standards -- if you look at the dev quizzes, that's what they cover.

Well, I think this is the problem with Gentoo (and the reason it has problems attracting developers). It should become easier for non developers to help out. The bar is simply to high right now. I asked a Debian developer how he become one. He said "Simple, I just send a appliance form and in no-time a was a developer". (Debian has currently around 1000 devs).

I made a deb package for the latest ATI-drivers and mailed it to them. I got a mail back in which they told me that couldn't use premade binaries, but that I could use svn to check out the fglrx-src and help from there.

Now my experience with Gentoo:

1 I wrote a patch for the ati-drivers a month ago on Mozilla. No response whatsoever ( http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234352 )
2 I offered to update the frontpage with news:

aniruddha wrote:
Were getting enough bad press as it is. To show the world were still alive it
is imo important to post a new message on the news page. Currently it look
like the Gentoo project has come to grinding stop since 15 October 2007 which
only fuels the rumors.

If anyone is willing to give me access to CMS I can at least post a small
message that an official statement will be posted soon..


This is the reaction I got:

Quote:
You aren't getting commit access to gentoo/xml/htdocs/ ;)

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205877

3 Here's an idea that was picked up, but stranded somehow: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204402
4 Reported bugs that noone answered:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=184699
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=199184
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=237699

Quote:
If you want to go ahead and do some research and crunch some numbers on why people are leaving, I say go for it. A statistical report could be interesting. You can check gentoo-dev ML for when people are retiring and what their public reasons are for. You can look at recruitment bugs also.

One other thing, for actual commit numbers, check out CIA.

http://cia.vc/stats/project/gentoo

You'll probably find that most of the work is done by a very small subset of developers (about 10% in my estimation). Each developer does not give an equal amount of work.

Edit: meh, kinda screwed up quoting

After reading the above, why would I want to do that?

P.S.
Still don't get me wrong. I like Gentoo very much but I am sincerely worried and I do think that action needs to be taken.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:

Well, I think this is the problem with Gentoo (and the reason it has problems attracting developers). It should become easier for non developers to help out. The bar is simply to high right now. I asked a Debian developer how he become one. He said "Simple, I just send a appliance form and in no-time a was a developer". (Debian has currently around 1000 devs).


Aniruddha, I'm not picking on you personally here, but I'd like to use your experience as a launching point if I could.

Simply put, just filing a few bugs and asking for access to write to the front page isn't gonna be enough to become a developer. Assuming that's all you did.

Now, in your defense, I will say that there is no simple roadmap or howto of becoming a developer. I was actually talking to yngwin about that earlier today, and I mentioned that it's so hard to fathom that its difficult to consider it being hard, since from my perspective it just seems so simple -- network and help out. Incidentally, we're looking at writing up a doc that covers some suggestions. Really, though, the entire process is really informal -- find a mentor, do the quizzes. That's about it.

Aniruddha wrote:
Still don't get me wrong. I like Gentoo very much but I am sincerely worried and I do think that action needs to be taken.


If you wanna help out, we can still point you in the right direction, and tell you what's gonna be effective. :)

AllenJB has a great post which really needs referencing, as some great starting points: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-5167622.html#5167622
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:

Well, I think this is the problem with Gentoo (and the reason it has problems attracting developers). It should become easier for non developers to help out. The bar is simply to high right now. I asked a Debian developer how he become one. He said "Simple, I just send a appliance form and in no-time a was a developer". (Debian has currently around 1000 devs).


Aniruddha, I'm not picking on you personally here, but I'd like to use your experience as a launching point if I could.

Simply put, just filing a few bugs and asking for access to write to the front page isn't gonna be enough to become a developer. Assuming that's all you did.

To be clear I didn't aspire to become a dev. However these example do show a real problem that can turn potential developers away.

beandog wrote:
Now, in your defense, I will say that there is no simple roadmap or howto of becoming a developer. I was actually talking to yngwin about that earlier today, and I mentioned that it's so hard to fathom that its difficult to consider it being hard, since from my perspective it just seems so simple -- network and help out. Incidentally, we're looking at writing up a doc that covers some suggestions. Really, though, the entire process is really informal -- find a mentor, do the quizzes. That's about it.

I think this is very important, it is also very important it's a quick an straightforward path.

beandog wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
Still don't get me wrong. I like Gentoo very much but I am sincerely worried and I do think that action needs to be taken.


If you wanna help out, we can still point you in the right direction, and tell you what's gonna be effective. :)

AllenJB has a great post which really needs referencing, as some great starting points: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-5167622.html#5167622

Given my recent experiences I tend to keep my contributions at a low level I plan to write some patches for documentation and see what happens from there.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
beandog wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:

Well, I think this is the problem with Gentoo (and the reason it has problems attracting developers). It should become easier for non developers to help out. The bar is simply to high right now. I asked a Debian developer how he become one. He said "Simple, I just send a appliance form and in no-time a was a developer". (Debian has currently around 1000 devs).


Aniruddha, I'm not picking on you personally here, but I'd like to use your experience as a launching point if I could.

Simply put, just filing a few bugs and asking for access to write to the front page isn't gonna be enough to become a developer. Assuming that's all you did.

To be clear I didn't aspire to become a dev. However these example do show a real problem that can turn potential developers away.


That is the exact argument I am trying to debunk. The attempts were nothing special.

There are policies in place for editing the front page. We can't just let anyone who comes along start making changes.

As far as the bugs, everyone files them, and they get ignored. Even developers who files bugs get theirs ignored and we have to track down devs sometimes to fix them or let us fix them for them.

Anyway, I think your expectations were extremely high for what would happen.

We still need contributions though. We would never know about every bug, so we are grateful for users that file them. They not only benefit developers, but also other users who run into similar issues, and have it documented. It's a great point of reference.

Don't give up though. You're going to get out of Gentoo what you put into it. Cliched, I know, but it's really true.
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