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Nerdanel
Apprentice
Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Finland
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 Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| I still use the monolithic KDE ebuilds. If there are people who insist on using the split ebuilds, let them and them only wait for their many ebuilds to be done instead of delaying everyone else with their complexity. |
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tanderson
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That the paludis features are needed for the kde overlay is disproven by kdesvn-portage. Which delivers kde4.1 (and the rc, and the beta, and svn ebuilds) without the dependency on paludis. Strange, isn't it? |
Yes, it's very strange why the kdesvn-portage would remove all the features that the kde overlay used to make a user's life easier. USE dependencies, anyone? For a look at the features, see http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/kde/kdebuild-1.xml
| Quote: | | Paludis is also imcompatible with portage by design |
You can always revert back. I've done this once(Not because of any fault of Paludis'). Just because there isn't a script to migrate from Paludis' superior configuration system to portage's system doesn't mean it's incompatible, you know.
EDIT: Add link to features documentation
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_puck_
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 May 2002
Posts: 111
Location: Kaiserslautern / Germany
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Do I get this right? At least some of the offical KDE developers are using some sort of alternative package-manager (last time i checked gentoo shipped with portage) in a time where human ressources are rare and that causes partly the delay of the release in portage?
Edit: Is there on the 4th day after the release now a estimated time for arrival known? Please notice it is estimated and not exact.
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Last edited by _puck_ on Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dagger
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 765
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | Dagger wrote: |
Paludis is a project which has similar principles as portage - does package managing. I remember paludis in early alpha stages when it's functionality was very poor, but the ideas were great. Since that time Paludis became something portage should became ages ago. It's got more features, it's faster, it's well maintained and maintainers are opened to users/devs suggestions. That's the reason why some of KDE team members prefer to use it. It gives them features portage can only dream of right now.
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faster? that is debatable. 'Open to suggestions'? Really? You are talking about ciaranm my friend.
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I know exactly who am I tanking about. He might be arrogant sometimes, but aren't we all are?
| energyman76b wrote: |
doesn't support that. Paludis is also imcompatible with portage by design (except when you set the portage useflag. Well done!).
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Paludis doesn't intend to be portage2. It's alternative package manager. It does things differently.
| energyman76b wrote: |
That the paludis features are needed for the kde overlay is disproven by kdesvn-portage. Which delivers kde4.1 (and the rc, and the beta, and svn ebuilds) without the dependency on paludis. Strange, isn't it? Maybe some people choose paludis to 'make' some more users switch to paludis? I don't know.
but this is very mature, indeed: export PALUDIS_DO_NOTHING_SANDBOXY="portage sucks"
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Well you sound like someone who never tried it for longer than 5 min and your ignorance confirms it. When it comes to features, usability, it is just superior.
| energyman76b wrote: |
If you only want 'more speed' - there is pkgcore. Which is faster, which is compatible with portage without setting the right flag and works very well. |
I'm very happy about it. I'm sure pkgcore has also wide range of users. It's all about personal choice.
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tanderson
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| _puck_ wrote: |
Do I get this right? At least some of the offical KDE developers are using some sort of alternative package-manager (last time i checked gentoo shipped with portage) in a time where human ressources are rare and that causes partly the delay of the release in portage?
Edit: Is there on the 4th day after the release now a estimated time for arrival known? Please notice it is estimated and not exact. |
Are you equating alternate package managers with more time not spent on releases? I maintain a few packages and I get bumps out the door quicker because I use Paludis(an alternate package manager).
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_puck_
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 May 2002
Posts: 111
Location: Kaiserslautern / Germany
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: |
Are you equating alternate package managers with more time not spent on releases? I maintain a few packages and I get bumps out the door quicker because I use Paludis(an alternate package manager). |
I am sorry, if i misunderstood. Form a post earlier in this thread I guessed that this slows everything down. I really like to understand what is going on. Thank you for that point of view.
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Carlo
Developer
Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 3356
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| _puck_ wrote: | | Even a developer said, overlays are the root of all evil. (Carlo, if you feel I misquoted you, please tell me.) |
These were not my words. And no, I didn't mean to sound as black & white, as your words imply.
One word about package managers: There's Portage, Gentoo's package manager. Period.
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Punraz
n00b
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Aachen Germany
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| _puck_ wrote: | | Edit: Is there on the 4th day after the release now a estimated time for arrival known? Please notice it is estimated and not exact. |
Hey,
look at the bright side, as gentoo sets another record: longest time span for a stable KDE release to appear in tree since 3.5.8 (which took 3 days)!
Let me guess, it will be ready when it's ready...
Cheers
punraz |
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BobTheEbuilder
n00b
Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Highest Branches of the Portage Tree
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Enough moaning, KDE4.1 is available for gentoo |
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| szensz-siempre wrote: |
Ultimately the strength of gentoo is going to lie in whether users, developers, testers, and tinkerers can work together with a shared appreciation of each others needs and concerns, and a willingness to be supportive. I don't feel the need to use another distro because I don't have KDE4.1 as quickly as they do (Once again you can have it earlier than most other distros through overlays), the only time I have gotten discouraged is when I have posted for help on the forums and not gotten any answer.
In conclusion, I will continue waiting in anticipation for KDE4.1 to be released in portage because I choose not to get it from an overlay. I commend the devs for their hard work, encourage them to listen to users, and appreciate that it is their time they are giving to us. And I encourage the community to work symbiotically to reawaken the "glory days" of gentoo. |
This is quite simply the most intelligent post I've seen on a forum in some time.
I'm a long time ghoster, first time poster in the Gentoo Forums, and a user of about five and a half years. I've tried every major Linux Distribution (I mean that as well, I believe finding the right one is a soul-searching process) and many obscure ones (even Sabayon back before it was popular, and merely an experiment out of Italy), but I consistently wind up using Gentoo. It just feels like home, which I'm sure many of you understand.
That's why I think this type of thread is disappointing. Not because users are making unfair demands, or because developers are sitting in their exclusive circles writing ebuilds at an intentionally slow pace, but because we as a community are unsure of how to address these issues. We are having difficulties functioning as a whole, and our chain of command seems convoluted.
I think szensz-siempre is entirely correct, we have to work together on this to bring Gentoo back. Embrace the abilities and opinions of our entire community, and show off exactly what we stand for.
Also, so that I'm not TOO off topic, I've been waiting for KDE 4 on Gentoo since the first alpha of 4.0. Once I found out the first branch was virtually unusable, I decided to wait. If the devs think I need to wait a little longer in order to have an official Gentoo KDE 4.1 experience, I'll grit my teeth and agree with them. I certainly respect the work you guys have done.
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Nerdanel
Apprentice
Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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I just read that only split ebuilds will be there for KDE 4. I for one can't fathom why. I'll have to change every KDE package I have into a meta-package (I don't have all of KDE installed) which pull in a ton of little packages, each of which needs to do the ./configure phase in the beginning all over again.
Also, cmake was going to give us percentage completion numbers. That kind of thing won't be very useful if it only shows the completion percentage within one package of many different sized ones.
For some time now I've been feeling that Gentoo has been drifting on autopilot. I have researched other source based distros, but they don't seem to have equalled Gentoo's portage technology from several years ago. I used to love Gentoo but now I just use it for the lack of better options. I switched to ~arch to get a little closer to the freshness stable used to have. |
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Gusar
Advocate
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 2665
Location: Slovenia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| _puck_ wrote: | | Why is it absolutly necessary to split them up. I don't understand that policy change. Now it takes even longer to compile the whole KDE Desktop. |
I have about thirty KDE packages installed of the 250+ available. You can be absolutely sure, this gets compiled faster than compiling the whole monolithic behemoth.
| _puck_ wrote: | | Most people do want all of that or don't care because disk is cheap. |
Any statistics to back that up?
| _puck_ wrote: | | In the past there were two releases. One as the original Project intended it and one as split up ebuilds. Everyone could have what fits best. |
It also meant more maintenance for a team that is very clearly already understaffed. |
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dleverton
Guru
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Carlo wrote: | | One word about package managers: There's Portage, Gentoo's package manager. Period. |
Oh, I see... so this thing I've been working on for the past 18 months or so is all in my head?  |
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chickpea23
n00b
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| yngwin wrote: | | node_one wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: | 2) Switch package managers - I guess they could use Paludis but there's still a lot of Gentoo in that. Perhaps they should move to apt? =D
Sabayon is irrevocably intertwined with Gentoo. Don't like it, tough. |
Sabayon has Entropy so #2 is not an issue. |
Entropy is basically just a wrapper/frontend for portage. |
No not in the least. Entropy is in fact it's own package management system that is binary based. It is a stand-alone package manager that will work with or without portage installed. |
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node_one
Apprentice
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I think some of these issues should be "forked" into their own topics. I would prefer not to have to quote several different people and the different issue they bring up all in one post. I think this will make the discussions more effective. Just my opinion of course. |
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wolfden
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 Oct 2004
Posts: 102
Location: Midwest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| chickpea23 wrote: | | yngwin wrote: | | node_one wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: | 2) Switch package managers - I guess they could use Paludis but there's still a lot of Gentoo in that. Perhaps they should move to apt? =D
Sabayon is irrevocably intertwined with Gentoo. Don't like it, tough. |
Sabayon has Entropy so #2 is not an issue. |
Entropy is basically just a wrapper/frontend for portage. |
No not in the least. Entropy is in fact it's own package management system that is binary based. It is a stand-alone package manager that will work with or without portage installed. |
Entropy needs portage - it's not stand alone. Where do you think all the packages in entropy come from? How do you think they are all built? Packages come from portage and overlays and than are compiled for you to access through entropy. |
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step
Apprentice
Joined: 16 May 2002
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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4 pages of ranting about overlays, plaudisisizi, entropys and enemas with sabayons but no answer to the original question:
| kiko wrote: | Tue Jul 29, 2008, hi all,i'm asking when kde 4.1 which has just been released (really stable) will be in gentoo official support instead of 4.0 ???
thanks |
Thank you |
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dentharg
Guru
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 438
Location: /poland/wroclaw
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hi!
I've tried to do everything as gentoo-wiki says: layman, kdesvn-portage, all that ln -s, emerge -vat @kde-4.1.
And I get:
"All ebuilds that could satisfy "=net-voip/tapioca-qt-9999" have been masked"
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Carlo
Developer
Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 3356
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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The answer is the same as it has always been: It's ready, when it's ready. Not sooner, not later, no date.
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_puck_
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 May 2002
Posts: 111
Location: Kaiserslautern / Germany
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Here is a snippet out of the irc channel #gentoo-kde from today. I thought it might be interesting:
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<bercik> Hello
<bercik> When KDE 4.1 is going to be added to main portage tree?
<bonsaikitten> when it is tested and ready
<bonsaikitten> in other words, be patient
<bercik> will this take a lot of time? week?
<bonsaikitten> hmm ... hard to say
<bercik> ah. i will wait then:)
<bonsaikitten> I'd guess more than a week
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<3
Veteran
Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 1081
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I've read through this thread and maybe I've missed someone discussing this but I'd really like to know the answer to why can't the devs just "borrow" the KDE ebuilds from one of the overlays and incorporate those into portage. From what I hear a lot of people are running KDE 4.1 from the overlays without any major problems. I've never written an ebuild before and don't quite understand the entire process of writing one but (*I think*) I know the basics and it seems that we could do just that. Is it more complicated that just coping the ebuilds from the overlays? Instead of placing the ebuilds on the overlays why not just use the official tree and just hard mask them like we used to do?
I'm not bitching or complaining, I understand that Gentoo is a volunteer project I'd just like to know. To me the answer to all this seems just too easy but I suspect that there is a reason as to why there aren't any KDE 4.1 ebuilds in the main tree yet. |
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Earthwings
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7753
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| node_one wrote: | | I think some of these issues should be "forked" into their own topics. I would prefer not to have to quote several different people and the different issue they bring up all in one post. I think this will make the discussions more effective. Just my opinion of course. |
Better yet, keep the package manager discussions elsewhere (directed at everyone).
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Voltago
Advocate
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 2593
Location: userland
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| <3 wrote: | | From what I hear a lot of people are running KDE 4.1 from the overlays without any major problems. |
There are some problems, at that (at least on my machine).
- All printing will be redirected into the virtual pdf printer
- Desktop search (strigi) is completely broken
- Downloading plasma applets (aka khotnewstuff) does not work
- Ebuilds miss dependencies (kppp misses pppd dep, for instance)
- KDE applications cannot resolve DNS addresses against Fritz!Box routers (very popular brand in Germany)
Some of those problems are upstream, but all of them are pretty annoying, and should be fixed or worked around before importing kde-4.1. And that's just what I have encountered during the last week. Also I can imagine that all the eclasses from the overlay would need a good seeing-to, and that is, I can tell from experience, serious work, even for small eclasses used by a few ebuilds. On the whole I can't tell if using the 4.0.x ebuilds as a basis, or the overlay ebuilds, or even starting from scratch would be fastest, but either way there is some work to be done. |
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peter4
Guru
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 359
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
about installing KDE 4.1 from overlay:
| Code: | * x11-libs/qt-core-4.4.0:4::gentoo: Masked by repository (/usr/portage/profiles/package.mask: Ingmar Vanhassel <ingmar@gentoo.org> (10 Mar 2008) Masked for testing, various dependencies still need to be updated...)
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Is it safe to unmask qt-4.4.0? |
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rahulthewall
Veteran
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 1264
Location: Zürich
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| peter4 wrote: | Hi,
about installing KDE 4.1 from overlay:
| Code: | * x11-libs/qt-core-4.4.0:4::gentoo: Masked by repository (/usr/portage/profiles/package.mask: Ingmar Vanhassel <ingmar@gentoo.org> (10 Mar 2008) Masked for testing, various dependencies still need to be updated...)
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Is it safe to unmask qt-4.4.0? |
I installed it and my laptop is still alive. 
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peter4
Guru
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 359
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| rahulthewall3000 wrote: |
I installed it and my laptop is still alive. |
Thanks 
I'm asking becouse my Gentoo installation is pretty old and messed up by now, and I'd rather not bump into some weird dependency problems
If you've stumbled into any, please let me know |
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