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Nick C
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Location: Portsmouth, England
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 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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whats wrong with using overlays? Its not that theres no longer a 'bleeding edge' in Gentoo, its more (imo) that the workflow has changed from devs working on bleeding edge ebuilds with them in the tree (either masked or in ~arch), but doing most of the development in overlays, so when they are put into the tree the ebuilds are of a higher quality, thus causing (hopefully) fewer problems for users.
Those who want to help with development and testing can just use the overlays and test/develop as normal surely? Ive never understood why some people dislike using overlays so much.
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yngwin
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Punraz
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Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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Location: Aachen Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: There's even an OpenSUSE LiveCD... |
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Hi all,
many valid points have been made by the posters in this thread and I don't want to waste any bytes here.
So, what really got me thinking was that OpenSUSE released a LiveCD with KDE 4.1 hours before KDE 4.1 was released officially. Go, download and try it (maybe not in qemu). It works amazingly well.
I remember times when ebuilds for an upcoming KDE version were added to the tree days before an announcement.
Out of pure curiosity I would like to know what happened to Gentoo since then? And don't even mention an overlay. You don't need any overlays because gentoo's portage could handle that out of the box!
Frustrated
punraz |
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harrisonmetz
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Joined: 24 Apr 2006
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Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| gator wrote: | | Secondly, the comments about limited resources I am sure are true. But even with x-thousand packages to maintain there is still an option of setting priorities. KDE has got to be (or should be in the top 10 list of packages getting attention - and resources). Most of those x-thousand packages are stuff that probably less than 2% of the Gentoo community uses so lack of resources doesn't float with me. The allocation of those resources is the real issue. |
Sorry to be harsh on you but its difficult to prioritize is that manner. First, the kernel itself must be up there. 2nd, packages like udev, hal, dbus, glibc, gcc, python (cause of portage), are essential. Next, you have packages like x11, qt, glib, and qtk+. Don't forget sound - alsa - you don't want to use snazzy kde 4.1 without sound. Perhaps you're a server so you need apache or LDAP or MySQL. Finally, if you're a desktop user there is GNOME, and then KDE. Making sure all these dependencies don't pull in versions or other dependencies >= xxxx or < yyyy, and built with the correct flags do take some work.
Don't get me wrong, I use KDE over GNOME and I would love to see it right away. I do remember when gentoo had stuff in portage the say day, and I agree with the puck gentlemen that ebuilds can be tested with the betas and RCs. I don't read dev lists or anything, but as a user, I do feel that gentoo has been slowing down. Of course, thats no ones fault but our own. We can volunteer our time or money which would certainly help.
However I do have some criticism of Gentoo. people have made ebuilds for packages which are sitting on bugzilla and not in the part of the official tree, such as phoronix-test-suite. That ebuild has been around for 2-3 (if not more) months and the software is stable. Even if it wasnt then mask it when its pulled into the tree. Or take the kdesvn-portage overlays and pull them into the tree. Both of those builds have been tested and work fine (for me), but for safty could always be masked. I may not be privy to all the information, but it appears as if gentoo developers are over zealous in deciding what goes into the main tree.
Please, don't anyone take this the wrong way. I think Gentoo is wonderful and the developers do a great job, they may not be perfect, and could do some things better, and others things they do better then other developers. I read an article last week about the "Linux Hater" by this samba guy, which discussed tough love. Many people think that OMG Linux is AMAZING and they way its done is OMG Right NO QEUSTIONS!!!! I do think Linux is wonderful, but, all of the kernel devs are human, and, by god, isn't it possible they could have made a mistake, or something could be implemented incorrectly, or been wrong about something. The shear fact that it is Linux doesn't add automatically make all their source code and ideas bonafide. The skill to analyze this is called Critical Thinking. Instead of just relying on our feelings that I WANT KDE4 NAO, or if its in the Linux Kernel it must have been done the best way, we should think critically about each one. |
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gator
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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As I sit here with firefox 2 on my leading edge Linux I think it is time we started seeing other distros.
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yngwin
Retired Dev
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Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: There's even an OpenSUSE LiveCD... |
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| Punraz wrote: | I remember times when ebuilds for an upcoming KDE version were added to the tree days before an announcement.
Out of pure curiosity I would like to know what happened to Gentoo since then? |
Our number 1 KDE maintainer from those days, Flameeyes, first retired (at least in part because of burnout), then came back but did not resume work on KDE. The current KDE team seems to be in a bit of a crisis, with some people working on stuff that only works in paludis, not portage, which seems to cause some division or political turmoil. I'm still trying to get more info on the status of kde-4.1.0 in the official tree.
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xororand
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| gator wrote: | | As I sit here with firefox 2 on my leading edge Linux I think it is time we started seeing other distros. |
Firefox 3 has been in Portage since 2008-06-17. _rc3 (identical to 3.0) was there even earlier. |
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baaann
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Nick C wrote: | whats wrong with using overlays? Its not that theres no longer a 'bleeding edge' in Gentoo, its more (imo) that the workflow has changed from devs working on bleeding edge ebuilds with them in the tree (either masked or in ~arch), but doing most of the development in overlays, so when they are put into the tree the ebuilds are of a higher quality, thus causing (hopefully) fewer problems for users.
Those who want to help with development and testing can just use the overlays and test/develop as normal surely? Ive never understood why some people dislike using overlays so much. |
+1
The only thing I would say is that the concept of overlays is not clearly presented to users. Maybe it would be a good idea for overlays.gentoo.org to be linked on the frontpage under Resources? It would also be good to set up a forum specifically for overlays to help raise awareness.
In the future, maybe portage could be adapted to include overlays, perhaps by extending the keyword choice with "unstable"(trusted overlays) and "experimental"(other overlays) being added to the existing "stable" and "testing"? |
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aceFruchtsaft
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Location: Vienna, Austria
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: There's even an OpenSUSE LiveCD... |
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| Punraz wrote: | So, what really got me thinking was that OpenSUSE released a LiveCD with KDE 4.1 hours before KDE 4.1 was released officially. Go, download and try it (maybe not in qemu). It works amazingly well.
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That may be true for the LiveCD, but installing KDE 4.1 onto an existing openSUSE 11.0 system is a major PITA. If you want to know what frustration is, go try it (I just wasted > 1 hour with this and finally gave up). I think I've never seen such a dependency mess before.
So it's not only Gentoo that's having problems with KDE 4.1  |
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coolsnowmen
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| harrisonmetz wrote: | | gator wrote: | | ...Most of those x-thousand packages are stuff that probably less than 2% of the Gentoo community uses so lack of resources doesn't float with me. The allocation of those resources is the real issue. |
Sorry to be harsh on you but its difficult to prioritize is that manner. First, the kernel itself must be up there. 2nd, packages like udev, hal, dbus, glibc, gcc, python (cause of portage), are essential. Next, you have packages like x11, qt, glib, and qtk+. Don't forget sound - alsa - you don't want to use snazzy kde 4.1 without sound. Perhaps you're a server so you need apache or LDAP or MySQL. |
I'ld like to add to this line of understanding. For the record, I have kde 4.1 installed now from the overlay.
But I understand the packages that are more important.
In my stable server there are 342 packages installed which all probably take precedence above kde 4.1
On my stable desktop I have 1000 packages installed which probably take priority above kde 4,1
and Harrisonmetz mentioned a top 100 list of packages above the thousands mainted by gentoo devs. Well you should understand that kde 4.1 alone is 233 packages, many of them have dependancies with in and outside of kde, and have config options (use flags) inside and outside of kde.
It is this choice that is gentoo's true priority. The ability to install packages with different flags, and therefor conditional dependencies. Non source based distros don't have that problem because their maintainers choose the configure options, as opposed to gentoo which lets you choose.
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_puck_
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Location: Kaiserslautern / Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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First of all I want to say "Thank you very much" to yngwin for making a statement regarding KDE 4.1 and for trying to get further information and also for showing some engagement to look closer at the process how users can get involved with gentoo. I promise I will not stop trying to find a hole to fit in. Although I have not much hope left.
As pointed out in this thread there may be a problem with gentoo if it can't manage to release important pieces of software just in time, like other distros do. Especially if you think about gentoo as a very up-to-date distribution like it was in the past.
IMHO the main unstable portage repository would be for a released piece of software the place to be until the dependencies and ebuild are final and then they can go into stable. Overlays are for not offical released ebuilds. But that is, of course, only my personal opinion.
Naturally I am using overlays, but that is not what I was asking for. I want KDE 4.1 be in official gentoo tree right away and if my favorite news site lists the Distributions where a new piece of software can be installed to list gentoo here as well and make a emerge --sync && emerge -uDN world after unmasking it and therefor expressing I am willing to take the risk to mess up my system. I think this is a reasonable request if you know the history of gentoo.
If there are problems in the KDE herd, ok. Adress them, fix them and with 4.2 maybe we can have a new chance but please don't just go on like that. One of the posters said something about priorities and I can only acknowledge this. KDE is a major piece of software and it should have a high priority like in any other distribution.
Maybe portage && paludis && split ebuild && other things I don't know about are too much to manage simultaniously. Why not concentrate on what you can and make a very good job at it? The KDE release was announced about 6 months in advance so you could timeshare the ressources to be on time. And the next release is also scheduled. So it is getting easier for the maintainers, isn't it?
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_puck_
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Joined: 12 May 2002
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Location: Kaiserslautern / Germany
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| coolsnowmen wrote: | | It is this choice that is gentoo's true priority. The ability to install packages with different flags, and therefor conditional dependencies. Non source based distros don't have that problem because their maintainers choose the configure options, as opposed to gentoo which lets you choose. |
Don't get me wrong. I like the USE-Flag and compile concept and I don't expect a flawless KDE install the day after release. I do expect problems and missing dependencies until it gets into stable. But I want to try on my own, in the past I had some success that way and learned much.
I don't want the Dev's to act as guardian for me. I want to get the bleeding nose if I am willing to take it. Get the ebuilds out: there will be bug reports, threads in the forum and a vital process will come to life. A masked package says everything: This is not ready yet, but find it out on your own.
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natros
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Joined: 26 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: There's even an OpenSUSE LiveCD... |
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| yngwin wrote: | | Punraz wrote: | I remember times when ebuilds for an upcoming KDE version were added to the tree days before an announcement.
Out of pure curiosity I would like to know what happened to Gentoo since then? |
Our number 1 KDE maintainer from those days, Flameeyes, first retired (at least in part because of burnout), then came back but did not resume work on KDE. The current KDE team seems to be in a bit of a crisis, with some people working on stuff that only works in paludis, not portage, which seems to cause some division or political turmoil. I'm still trying to get more info on the status of kde-4.1.0 in the official tree. |
I feel sorry for "flameeyes", but isn't there anyone that can take his work. It seems that there is some overlay with kde 4.1, I don't know how good it is but I'm sure they love to help. Couldn't you, or gentoo, contact the team that owns that overlay?
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yngwin
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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I've been told the KDE team is currently testing ebuilds, so they should appear soonish. And at least one of the members of the KDE team is working with the kdesvn-portage overlay, so that is covered as well.
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Carlo
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| node_one wrote: | | I understand the use of sunrise is discouraged. |
Matter of opinion. Every time I looked at this overlay, I saw a lot of crap.
| node_one wrote: | | I believe the original question is why isn't KDE 4.1 in the portage tree. |
Two reasons: Gentoo apparently does not attract enough capable developers/maintainers. Overlays became popular, so a lot of stuff is hidden in them (causing delays, fragmentation,...), which is a rather stupid.
Old rule applies: Whining doesn't help. Your choices are to help to improve Gentoo or to find a distribution that suits your needs better.
| Alabattai wrote: | | Funny, how the little and undermanned Arch Linux already had three KDE 4.1 releases in their main repos, and now they're not even in testing or unstable anymore. |
Arch is a distribution in it's own right. Their decision. I do not consider KDE 4.1.0 ready to go stable. Apart from KDE itself, I'd rather wait for the next major Xorg release and some vendor of proprietary drivers to get into his shoes.
| gator wrote: | | Secondly, the comments about limited resources I am sure are true. But even with x-thousand packages to maintain there is still an option of setting priorities. KDE has got to be (or should be in the top 10 list of packages getting attention - and resources). |
False. This is a community distribution. Developers work on what they want to, not what you prefer or some project manager decides.
| harrisonmetz wrote: | | people have made ebuilds for packages which are sitting on bugzilla and not in the part of the official tree, such as phoronix-test-suite. |
Adding new packages has always been lowest priority. Now grep the tree for maintainer-needed in metadata.xml files. We don't even have the human ressources to maintain the current tree properly.
Personally I don't even have time to look at KDE 4 seriously until after doing a bit of maintenance of relating as well as unrelating issues and having brought KDE 3.5.10 into testing.
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harrisonmetz
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| What is going on with this protage vs pladus(sp)? I read the website and they claim portage's codebase in not very good. While Free and Open Source software is about choices, having 2 package managers may be a problem. Whats the deal with that? |
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brahmix
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: |
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" I do not consider KDE 4.1.0 ready to go stable"
WTF is ~x86 for? UNSTABLE!!!!
What is wrong with Gentoo:
1 Gentoo.org became a snobbish hobby.
2 The Gate Keepers who *only work on what they like*
3 And the snooty attitude of 'if you don't like our lazy a$$ snotface attitude, go away'?
Hello! Is there a MIND there? Is there any way at all that you can get your head out of your own a$$ and maybe see that there *really* is a problem here?
Point your attention to Sabayon- maybe we can get this type of I-maintain-therefore-I-am-GOD sh!t out of the way and have a distro like *old_gentoo* again where we can play (~) or work!
I LOVED gentoo.
I don't anymore as my affair with Sabayon became a real relationship... only one thing...
I so wish that Sabayon would feel the same and DIVORCE gentoo.
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Nick C
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Id rather not feed the troll, but i have to ask, why on earth would (or should) developers who develop as a hobby, in their spare time, work on anything *but* the things they enjoy or are interested in?
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step
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Posts: 198
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Why do I need to frack around with this damn overlay and what not when gentoo has a perfect portage system and the good old "~x86 " option for masking etc.
Thank you but no thanks.
So, when can we have the KDE41 in our beloved portage?
I just have to add this off topic rand here... how I use KDE every day and I like it . And how our whole office runs on KDE (and gentoo) and how KDE not just a toy I dual boot to. And yes, I think KDE4 looks like crappy Vista and OS X train wreck... but all this is off topic at the moment.  |
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rahulthewall
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Joined: 01 Nov 2007
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Location: Zürich
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Seriously, enough of this overlay bashing. Even Ubuntu had an "extra" repository for KDE-4.1 (do not know whether it has moved into the main repos yet or not). If you can bother yourself enough to install software which is not yet stable, why can't you bother to simply issue a layman -a kdesvn-portage before an emerge kdebase-startkde. This is beyond me.
The only thing that I would like is that KDE-4* was moved from Hard Masked (package.mask) to ~x86/amd64/whatever (package.keywords) because it is a pain to unmask everything. And autounmask does not work for overlays. That is the only complaint that I have about gentoo portage.
On another note, the number of ebuilds that are already there in the overlay are quite a lot. I have yet to come across a distro which maintains "lxsplit" in their official repos/tree or whatever you like to call it.
Other than that, being a source distro, the focus of gentoo should be on the toolchain, and new versions of those are moved in the tree faster than any other distro. If one can digest the fact that gentoo's focus (as far as I have seen) is not on eye-candy tools, then I would have to say that it is doing a very fine job indeed. And if we are not happy, we can always pitch in, rather than whine.
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Dagger
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| brahmix wrote: | " I do not consider KDE 4.1.0 ready to go stable"
WTF is ~x86 for? UNSTABLE!!!!
What is wrong with Gentoo:
1 Gentoo.org became a snobbish hobby.
2 The Gate Keepers who *only work on what they like*
3 And the snooty attitude of 'if you don't like our lazy a$$ snotface attitude, go away'?
Hello! Is there a MIND there? Is there any way at all that you can get your head out of your own a$$ and maybe see that there *really* is a problem here?
Point your attention to Sabayon- maybe we can get this type of I-maintain-therefore-I-am-GOD sh!t out of the way and have a distro like *old_gentoo* again where we can play (~) or work!
I LOVED gentoo.
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sad, but +1
| harrisonmetz wrote: |
What is going on with this protage vs pladus(sp)? I read the website and they claim portage's codebase in not very good. While Free and Open Source software is about choices, having 2 package managers may be a problem. Whats the deal with that?
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Paludis is a project which has similar principles as portage - does package managing. I remember paludis in early alpha stages when it's functionality was very poor, but the ideas were great. Since that time Paludis became something portage should became ages ago. It's got more features, it's faster, it's well maintained and maintainers are opened to users/devs suggestions. That's the reason why some of KDE team members prefer to use it. It gives them features portage can only dream of right now.
Well Gentoo lost many good developers and people who's been here for a while know that. Of course there are always new ones, but with the attitude like:
| Carlo wrote: | | Matter of opinion. Every time I looked at this overlay, I saw a lot of crap. |
people won't be encouraged to help. Not everyone was born with all knowledge how to write an ebuilds, but that's what one can learn if there is enough support.
Right now to use Gentoo as a cutting edge distribution you need non-gentoo tools (like paludis), non-gentoo ebuilds (overlays and a big library of custom ebuilds). Does it still count as gentoo than?
I admire gentoo devs and their hard work, but I think distribution policy should be focus a bit more on encouraging community to support, recruiting new devs. That will give gentoo manpower it needs to make more people happy.
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Voltago
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| brahmix wrote: |
I LOVED gentoo.
I don't anymore as my affair with Sabayon became a real relationship... only one thing...
I so wish that Sabayon would feel the same and DIVORCE gentoo. |
You make this sound as if you expected that anyone cares... |
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AllenJB
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| brahmix wrote: | " I do not consider KDE 4.1.0 ready to go stable"
WTF is ~x86 for? UNSTABLE!!!! |
Where "unstable" in this case means packages that they believe may be ready to go stable, but haven't had enough testing yet. KDE 4.1 isn't currently considered that by most people.
| Quote: | What is wrong with Gentoo:
1 Gentoo.org became a snobbish hobby. |
What do you mean by "gentoo.org"? The website? The developers? The project as a whole?
| Quote: | | 2 The Gate Keepers who *only work on what they like* |
Alternatively phrased:
2) The Volunteers who work on what they want to do first. After all, it's their time they are giving up for free. STOP TREATING VOLUNTEERS LIKE PAID DEVELOPERS!
| Quote: |
3 And the snooty attitude of 'if you don't like our lazy a$$ snotface attitude, go away'?
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Actually I suspect it's more like:
3) And the attitude of "we don't like YOUR lazy a$$ snotface attitude, go away"
| Quote: | Hello! Is there a MIND there? Is there any way at all that you can get your head out of your own a$$ and maybe see that there *really* is a problem here?
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The developers know there's problems. The biggest problem is not enough developers. This has already been stated in this thread and many others. Get YOUR head out of your a$$ and maybe see that it's not an easily solvable problem.
| Quote: | | Point your attention to Sabayon- maybe we can get this type of I-maintain-therefore-I-am-GOD sh!t out of the way and have a distro like *old_gentoo* again where we can play (~) or work! |
What exactly do Sabayon do better? At the end of the day, the volunteers volunteer their time and so get to work on what they want first. They put the effort in so why is it unfair that they get to choose the priorities?
| Quote: | I LOVED gentoo.
I don't anymore as my affair with Sabayon became a real relationship... only one thing...
I so wish that Sabayon would feel the same and DIVORCE gentoo. |
Lets see, for Sabayon to divorce Gentoo they'd have to:
1) Maintain their own version of the entire portage tree, for which they'd need more developers than they and Gentoo have put together.
2) Switch package managers - I guess they could use Paludis but there's still a lot of Gentoo in that. Perhaps they should move to apt? =D
3) Replace all the Gentoo support materials with their own. Judging by the number of Sabayon users I still see asking for help on these forums and in IRC, they don't even have enough material to support what they currently do.
Sabayon is irrevocably intertwined with Gentoo. Don't like it, tough. |
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Nick C
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Posts: 526
Location: Portsmouth, England
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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For anyone not wanting to fight with unmasking all the kde4 ebuilds look on the wiki here http://gentoo-wiki.com/KDE4
If you use the kdesvn-portage overlay they provide unmask/keyword files that you can symlink to and *bingo* no manual unmasking to do, theres also handy sets to use to which makes reinstalling a lot easier if your an svn user (although this is a bit moot now the @live-ebuild set is part of portage 2.2_rc6).
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Carlo
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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@brahmix: I'd prefer, if you'd try to read carefully. Quoting out of context is trollish behaviour.
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