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MindChild
n00b
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: Abusive Freenode Ops |
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Hey all,
Last night I was banned from freenodes #gentoo channel, I've been told forever. It took about 15 minutes and an op who thought it better to kick me than admit he had no idea what I was saying (not that he was actually paying attention. Read on). I will not force my views on you, or even insist that you agree with them. I am just putting it out there so that everyone else can make up their own mind.
See: http://pastebin.com/f1a5ad7a2
Thanks. |
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PaulBredbury
Watchman
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 7310
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hilarious. Moral of the story: Don't annoy people whilst simultaneously asking them for FREE help. Your frustration and lack of debugging knowledge is not "our" problem  |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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nice abuse of OP there
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| Quote: | | Removed by Chiitoo |
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astinus
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Seems like a fair ban to me, you've been removed before for trolling and other stuff. Shunting libraries around your systems is very liable to cause instability, and isn't supported. Glad to see you're not just sticking to IRC with your annoying behaviour though Maybe a blog should be next? |
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MindChild
n00b
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="PaulBredbury"]Hilarious. Moral of the story: Don't annoy people whilst simultaneously asking them for FREE help. Your frustration and lack of debugging knowledge is not "our" problem[/quote]
See, I believe you are part of the problem. In this situation I *thought* it was pretty clear that the current environment that I was dealing with at that very moment lacked the tools I need, and the inability to get them, which has NOTHING to do with unwillingness or inability to debug the situation. I guess it is easy to just paint yourself superior and everyone else an idiot.
[quote="astinus"]Seems like a fair ban to me, you've been removed before for trolling and other stuff. Shunting libraries around your systems is very liable to cause instability, and isn't supported. Glad to see you're not just sticking to IRC with your annoying behaviour though ;) Maybe a blog should be next?[/quote]
I respect your opinion, but I fail to see exactly what "trolling" went on. Are you talking about my insistence to pay attention to the actual words of what I was saying? My unwillingness to bend over and take flat out abuse? I am sorry, but the idea that because someone found their way to ops in a channel I chose to be in, that I have to paint them as a deity, is frankly, ludicrous. It is akin to going to a park and a ranger pissing all over me when I ask where the bathroom is. It is "free" after all, right? I shouldn't complain, right? Right.
Last edited by MindChild on Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PaulBredbury
Watchman
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 7310
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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You can only get away with annoying people who are trying to help you, if you're PAYING them. Otherwise, they'll bite back. This is supposed to be obvious.
| Quote: | | I guess it is easy to just paint yourself superior and everyone else an idiot. |
It's easy, and very enjoyable, and usually the situation anyway 
However, the person who banned you wasn't guilty of that.
Feel free to blame everyone but yourself |
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amne
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 6378
Location: Graz / EU
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Moved from Other Things Gentoo to Gentoo Chat (not really a support question matching the Assistance forums).
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Dinosaur week! (Ok, this thread is so last week) |
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astinus
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| MindChild wrote: | | I respect your opinion, but I fail to see exactly what "trolling" went on. Are you talking about my insistence to pay attention to the actual words of what I was saying? My unwillingness to bend over and take flat out abuse? I am sorry, but the idea that because someone found their way to ops in a channel I chose to be in, that I have to paint them as a deity, is frankly, ludicrous. It is akin to going to a park and a ranger pissing all over me when I ask where the bathroom is. It is "free" after all, right? I shouldn't complain, right? Right. |
11:29 <+GenJr> MindChild --> MindChild!*@*!#gentoo-ops for spamming a porn link in #gentoo. MindChild seems to be
helpful on occasion -- I don't know what brought on this silliness. (by: kojiro)
11:29 <+GenJr> MindChild (more:) ban removed on 2008-03-11: probationary as long as he remains on-topic (by: kojiro)
That was a good start really...
11:29 <+GenJr> MindChild (more:) n=me@rrcs-24-129-179-67.se.biz.rr.com half-trolling, noisy,
CAPS, off-topic: banforwarded (by: rej)
I have to respect PaulBredbury - we are all volunteers; we cannot always solve your problems. If you 100% need problems to be solved, the best route is to pay through the arse for Red Hat Enterprise Linux and when things break, you have someone to phone and grumble at plus paid engineers who'll deal with the issue. Chances are they'll also tell you shunting libraries between systems manually and not using supported packages is 'unsupported' but at least they'll fix it
Getting into a situation where you're annoyed, angry, shouting or off-topic just isn't helpful to #gentoo and that's the reason you were removed.
Almost no bans are indefinite, I'd wager this one lasts for a couple of weeks, but being let back in will require honest belief you're not going to need banning again 2 minutes later. Repeated removal and setting of bans is pointless and a waste of everyone's time. |
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MindChild
n00b
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Firstly, that "ban" was NOT a porn link. If you (or kojiro) actually even LOOKED at it (that IS the problem we are discussing here isn't it? Not paying attention to the actual details. Seems to be a reoccurring theme), it was a disguised "rickroll", with a misleading title and NOTHING explicit. I joke around all of the time. Of course a "porn" link seemed out of character... because it WASN'T.
Secondly, it was a different day, a different situation, and completely unrelated. All you are doing is a common street magician trick... "HEY LOOK EVERYONE! Watch this hand and pay no attention to what is REALLY going on!"
You know what? When it comes down to it, I don't care about not getting assistance. It isn't like I NEEDED help or I'd lose my job and my house. I was stuck in an office, waiting for a phone call, with nothing to do, but work with a system I was developing, and had none of my tools. Let me be clear, because there is a lot of focus on the wrong thing. The issue is, not the fact that I got no help, but what got solved with a ban would have and should have been solved with an ignore. A few words in caps in a sentence is a ridiculous reason for a ban (and yes, the use of caps is consistent with caps in this post. It is how I talk in real life, as do most people. We call it inflection). Especially in the face of frustration, this guy was making blanket suggestions when adequate explanation proceeded as to what/why/where those statements were irrelevant.
If you can't help me, that IS fine. If you want to spew nonsense at me, maybe I get a put off, but ultimately, that is fine too. What is NOT fine is banning me because I am pointing out that you (general you) completely fail at answering what I am asking. That is what it comes down to. |
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PaulBredbury
Watchman
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 7310
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| MindChild wrote: | | completely fail at answering what I am asking. |
That is nonsense. You were getting good advice. Not fantastic advice, but better than you should be expecting for free. Maybe he missed the "I dont have the ld* binaries on it" line. That is not an excuse to get irritable with him.
Tell you what, try this experiment. Go up to some stranger in the street and ask for directions. Get increasingly angry as you tell him that all his routes are useless to you. See how long it takes before he tells you to go stick your <bleep> up your <bleep> and walks off. This is what's called, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." |
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avenj
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 495
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| MindChild wrote: | | Firstly, that "ban" was NOT a porn link. If you (or kojiro) actually even LOOKED at it (that IS the problem we are discussing here isn't it? Not paying attention to the actual details. Seems to be a reoccurring theme), it was a disguised "rickroll", with a misleading title and NOTHING explicit. I joke around all of the time. Of course a "porn" link seemed out of character... because it WASN'T. |
Rick rolls are not funny and way off-topic in #gentoo, just the same as pr0n.
| Quote: | | Secondly, it was a different day, a different situation, and completely unrelated. All you are doing is a common street magician trick... "HEY LOOK EVERYONE! Watch this hand and pay no attention to what is REALLY going on!" |
Ever heard the term 'pattern of behavior?'
| Quote: | | You know what? When it comes down to it, I don't care about not getting assistance. It isn't like I NEEDED help or I'd lose my job and my house. I was stuck in an office, waiting for a phone call, with nothing to do, but work with a system I was developing, and had none of my tools. Let me be clear, because there is a lot of focus on the wrong thing. The issue is, not the fact that I got no help, but what got solved with a ban would have and should have been solved with an ignore. A few words in caps in a sentence is a ridiculous reason for a ban (and yes, the use of caps is consistent with caps in this post. It is how I talk in real life, as do most people. We call it inflection). Especially in the face of frustration, this guy was making blanket suggestions when adequate explanation proceeded as to what/why/where those statements were irrelevant. |
You were rather obviously losing your temper and being disruptive. Had you revised your stance and dealt with this in something resembling an adult manner (rather than freaking out, losing your temper some more, then swearing that you'll go on an endless crusade on Internet forums in a desperate search for sympathy) I suspect this could have been solved fairly rationally. Instead you were and are digging yourself deeper (and making yourself look rather silly in public).
| Quote: | | If you can't help me, that IS fine. If you want to spew nonsense at me, maybe I get a put off, but ultimately, that is fine too. What is NOT fine is banning me because I am pointing out that you (general you) completely fail at answering what I am asking. That is what it comes down to. |
No, what is not fine is your juvenile overreactions from beginning to end.
(For the record I suspect your problem could've been solved by running ldconfig) |
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jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| how exactly do you end up with a gentoo system that doesn't have ldd? |
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MindChild
n00b
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="jonnevers"]how exactly do you end up with a gentoo system that doesn't have ldd?[/quote]
Simple. The system was "built" on another machine using a cross-compiler. It was then moved to the developing machine. The platform being constructed has no purpose having anything more than I have put on it. On any other given day, I would have had my development machine/environment right next to me and I would have never even opened my mouth.
[quote="avenj"] (For the record I suspect your problem could've been solved by running ldconfig)[/quote]
Really?!?!? REALLY?!?!?! Man. I don't get it. I really don't. Are you all sipping the same comprehension inhibiting kool-aid?
...
[22:25] <MindChild> I dont have the ld* binaries on it
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[22:30] <MindChild> tdr: I said I have no ld* binaries
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[22:37] <@rej> MindChild: Did you run ldd yet as tdr suggested?
...
Wait, that is not all. I know if I leave this post as is, seeing as you are still NOT paying ANY attention to the situation:
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[22:27] <MindChild> No, this isnt an x86 box
[22:27] <MindChild> and a network connection isnt readily available
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[22:28] <MindChild> maybe I wasnt clear. I just copied a newly compiled lib, right over the old one. I have no network connection, no gentoolkit, and nothing in /usr/portage/distfiles
...
So, to recap. I was not where I had my development tools. I have no network connection on this machine. I have no ld* ld.^ ld<insertanythinghere> binaries on that machine. There is no ldd. There is no ldconfig. This is not x86. This is not a "stage 3" x86 gentoo build. There is no ldd. It has no network connection. There is nothing in /usr/portage/distfiles (and no emerge). There is no ldd. There is no ldconfig. There is no library tools that would be useful at all. I did not have my development machine on hand.
WAIT! I know what else is to come next!
Don't tell me it is "not supported". Supported or not, my question was a simple, platform agnostic, Would-this-circumstance-cause-that-error question. And if #gentoo wasn't a catch all for general questions, then we would all have to use #gentoo-sparc #gentoo-amd64 #gentoo-powerpc etc. There is no ldd. There is no ldconfig. There is no emerge or portage or anything at the time to move files on/off the machine. It is not x86. Libraries reside in /opt/Qtopia/lib. Libraries are not in any place but there. Libraries are not in /usr/lib. But I digress.
I hope to god you have someone drive you around. I couldn't imagine being on the road with you. |
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amne
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 6378
Location: Graz / EU
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| MindChild wrote: | Really?!?!? REALLY?!?!?! Man. I don't get it. I really don't. Are you all sipping the same comprehension inhibiting kool-aid?
I hope to god you have someone drive you around. I couldn't imagine being on the road with you. |
And this is where you get your first warning on the forums. If you can't communicate with people without properly addressing them in a polite way, you're gonna get banned here.
Other than that, and that may just be me, but people in #gentoo may simply expect that you're running a Gentoo system, and not one without portage and ldd. So don't be too surprised if they don't notice you've mentioned it not being the case before.
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Dinosaur week! (Ok, this thread is so last week) |
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jonnevers
Veteran
Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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afaict, the system you want support for is not a gentoo system. period.
it is built w/ and based on a gentoo system but it is not a gentoo system, in and of itself. |
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alistair
Retired Dev
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 869
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| amne wrote: | | Other than that, and that may just be me, but people in #gentoo may simply expect that you're running a Gentoo system, and not one without portage and ldd. So don't be too surprised if they don't notice you've mentioned it not being the case before. |
Also, ldd is in a pretty common package. Making it ever more likely to be available.
| Code: |
equery belongs /usr/bin/ldd
[ Searching for file(s) /usr/bin/ldd in *... ]
sys-libs/glibc-2.7-r1 (/usr/bin/ldd) |
[/code]
| Code: |
* sys-libs/glibc
Latest version available: 2.7-r1
Latest version installed: 2.7-r1
Size of files: 16,218 kB
Homepage: http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/libc.html
Description: GNU libc6 (also called glibc2) C library
License: LGPL-2 |
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Help the gentoo-java project. Visit Gentoo Java Project
what good are admin powers if you don't abuse them for personal gain - mark_alec |
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astinus
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnevers wrote: | afaict, the system you want support for is not a gentoo system. period.
it is built w/ and based on a gentoo system but it is not a gentoo system, in and of itself. |
Which means no support in #gentoo for such a system, per the Sabayon clause in our rules:
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/irc.xml
... you did read the rules, right? I mean, we mention them in a number of places...
| #gentoo Join Message wrote: |
13:01 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#gentoo] Welcome to #gentoo || Acceptable Usage Policy @
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/irc.xml || Keep the language clean || Google is your friend
|| No bots or scripts that talk || Turn off public away messages || More than three lines
to #flood or a pastebin service, no spam!
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| The Rules wrote: |
We ask very little of users visiting our support channels on freenode:
* Please act sensibly and maturely, abiding by the Code of Conduct.
* Please read the topic when entering a channel, it contains valuable information!
* Bots or scripts that talk are not welcome in most channels. If in doubt, please ask.
* Please do not use CTCP VERSION or the like on users / channels without their consent.
* Please note we operate a clean-language policy in #gentoo, and swearing is not permitted.
It should be noted that we do not provide support for derivative distributions based upon Gentoo Linux.
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By my count you've broken at least two of those, yet you're demanding we remove your ban? Hah! Pull the other one
So yes, the question you asked was distribution agnostic, but no, #gentoo isn't the place for that - perhaps you should try irc.freenode.net/##linux in future?
We're a busy channel and the folks helping ya'll out are volunteers, lots of the most helpful users are lovely people who don't want to deal with semi-abusive and rant'y behaviour simply because they can't fix your problem, or decipher exactly what you're asking. It's your problem that you aren't running a supported setup, not ours, you don't pay us a penny and so far you've done nothing but Take, Take, Take!
| alistair wrote: |
Also, ldd is in a pretty common package. Making it ever more likely to be available.
| Code: |
equery belongs /usr/bin/ldd
[ Searching for file(s) /usr/bin/ldd in *... ]
sys-libs/glibc-2.7-r1 (/usr/bin/ldd) |
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... and yeah, if you don't have sys-libs/glibc or one of the uClibc equivalents which I believe also come with ldd then you're pretty much shafted anyway. Time to consider your wisdom with having a system that stripped down?  |
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avenj
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 495
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Really?!?!? REALLY?!?!?! Man. I don't get it. I really don't. |
I am shocked to hear that.
| Quote: | | Are you all sipping the same comprehension inhibiting kool-aid? |
Yes.
| Quote: | | Don't tell me it is "not supported". Supported or not, my question was a simple, platform agnostic, Would-this-circumstance-cause-that-error question. And if #gentoo wasn't a catch all for general questions, then we would all have to use #gentoo-sparc #gentoo-amd64 #gentoo-powerpc etc. There is no ldd. There is no ldconfig. There is no emerge or portage or anything at the time to move files on/off the machine. It is not x86. Libraries reside in /opt/Qtopia/lib. Libraries are not in any place but there. Libraries are not in /usr/lib. But I digress. |
#gentoo is for Gentoo support, obviously you didn't need Gentoo support and were abusing the availability of free Gentoo assistance.
Once again, I suspect you need ldconfig because you broke your ld.so.cache. I understand you do not have it. That's your problem. See, even despite your abusive attitude and personal insults, I just helped you for free. Must be something in the kool-aid. |
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Rad
Guru
Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 401
Location: Bern, Switzerland
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| avenj wrote: | #gentoo is for Gentoo support, obviously you didn't need Gentoo support and were abusing the availability of free Gentoo assistance.
Once again, I suspect you need ldconfig because you broke your ld.so.cache. I understand you do not have it. That's your problem. See, even despite your abusive attitude and personal insults, I just helped you for free. Must be something in the kool-aid. |
Its apparently just me, but to me it seems saying something like that would have been a way more proper response before, or at least after kicking. |
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avenj
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 495
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Rad wrote: | | avenj wrote: | #gentoo is for Gentoo support, obviously you didn't need Gentoo support and were abusing the availability of free Gentoo assistance.
Once again, I suspect you need ldconfig because you broke your ld.so.cache. I understand you do not have it. That's your problem. See, even despite your abusive attitude and personal insults, I just helped you for free. Must be something in the kool-aid. |
Its apparently just me, but to me it seems saying something like that would have been a way more proper response before, or at least after kicking. |
MindChild was not especially clear in the first place that this wasn't a Gentoo box, lost his temper when the correct solution (which he has been resisting all along as it requires necessary linker tools - ldd/ldconfig) was presented to him, then proceeded to lose his temper even more severely on #gentoo-ops, then claimed he was going to go on an Internet campaign to ensure that everyone knows how inherently stupid and evil #gentoo ops are by posting on forums & Slashdot.
In other words, we certainly tried. |
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Rad
Guru
Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 401
Location: Bern, Switzerland
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| avenj wrote: |
MindChild was not especially clear in the first place that this wasn't a Gentoo box, lost his temper when the correct solution (which he has been resisting all along as it requires necessary linker tools - ldd/ldconfig) was presented to him, then proceeded to lose his temper even more severely on #gentoo-ops, then claimed he was going to go on an Internet campaign to ensure that everyone knows how inherently stupid and evil #gentoo ops are by posting on forums & Slashdot.
In other words, we certainly tried. |
I see. A ban makes even more sense then since that's clearly inappropriate.
But I still don't see how the first kick makes sense. I assume #gentoo-ops hadn't been flamed at that point?
If so, that won't excuse MindChild's later behavior either, but still leaves the question whether ops in #gentoo should not act more accordingly to the Gentoo CoC (acceptable behaviour - respectful disagreement and courtesy) and the freenode channel guidelines (read the catalyst part).
And no, I do not have the slightest thing to do with MindChild. |
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avenj
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 495
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Rad wrote: | | avenj wrote: |
MindChild was not especially clear in the first place that this wasn't a Gentoo box, lost his temper when the correct solution (which he has been resisting all along as it requires necessary linker tools - ldd/ldconfig) was presented to him, then proceeded to lose his temper even more severely on #gentoo-ops, then claimed he was going to go on an Internet campaign to ensure that everyone knows how inherently stupid and evil #gentoo ops are by posting on forums & Slashdot.
In other words, we certainly tried. |
I see. A ban makes even more sense then since that's clearly inappropriate.
But I still don't see how the first kick makes sense. I assume #gentoo-ops hadn't been flamed at that point?
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Correct. I believe the first kick was intended as a warning (he was obviously getting entirely too heated at that point).Considering our past encounters with MindChild I agree with rej's decision to use /kick as a warning mechanism (MindChild knew better). We generally try to keep the tone reasonable in #gentoo. |
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edit_21
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Looks like a case of no respect, why bite the hand that feeds..
If you wanna troll - come to #gentoo-chat, we audition trolls daily.
Edit_21 |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: |
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with the history sure
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| Quote: | | Removed by Chiitoo |
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jer
Retired Dev
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hi thread!
| Rad wrote: | | But I still don't see how the first kick makes sense. |
Writing in capitals is commonly viewed as bad behaviour (which the "kick reason" between brackets explains, but maybe it should have said ALLCAPS instead to be absolutely clear):
[22:30] <MindChild> rej: I told you I copied it RIGHT OVER THE OLD ONE
[22:30] <@rej> tdr: There is more to it than you could have been able to read.
[22:30] * You were kicked by rej (behave) |
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