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| Do people in your municipalities/boroughs/towns/cities act as fickle as college students? |
| Yeah. |
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41% |
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| No. People are pretty reasonable here. |
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5% |
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| I am not from the USA / I obstain. |
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53% |
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| Total Votes : 39 |
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sts
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 97
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 Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | This could be hugely embarrassing, but... From a 2004 New Yorker report[...] |
So we might as well be rolling dice.
Did you remove your blog dmitchell? Might want to update your forum profile. |
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dmitchell
Veteran
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 1139
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| sts wrote: | | Did you remove your blog dmitchell? Might want to update your forum profile. |
Thanks, I stopped blogging when school began. Yes, according to that article the election seems like a total crapshoot. It is possible that all the uninformed cancel one another out... but who knows? Even if the uninformed vote is evenly split between R and D, that pretty much kills any chance of a minor party doing well.
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I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. |
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artificio
Apprentice
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | I don't see how it could allow for "easier manipulation," but clearly it might be the case that the costs turn out to be unjustified. |
Simply advertise to groups of people that someone wants to vote, and do nothing in other areas. If there's a commercial blaring on about names/faces in one area, with nothing in the other, it's likely that mroe people will pass the test in the one w/ the ads than otherwise.
| dmitchell wrote: | | What I like about the dontvote.org test is that it is simple and easy to administer and it pointedly does not attempt to directly test "intelligent and independent analysis of the issues" (let's call this IIA). While it sounds nice to say we should test IIA, in practice I don't see how you could do it. I think it is important to avoid discriminating along lines of opinion (for instance asking a question like "What should be done about Iraq?" and only allowing people who respond a certain way to vote), but I don't see how you could avoid this if you were attempting to test IIA because if you accept any answer, then you haven't tested IIA. Maybe you could elaborate on what you have in mind? |
That's exactly the problem, since name/face recognition isn't exactly a decent/fair test of anything except for name/face recognition, and there's really no way to test IIA, the only thing we can do is let people vote however they want to, if they want to, and address lack of voter education in schools/whatnot much earlier. People who feel they have something quantifiable to gain from voting generally do, otherwise they tend not to bother with it.
That being said, our current political system is rife with corruption, and definitely needs a reworking IMO. |
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dmitchell
Veteran
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 1139
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| artificio wrote: | | Simply advertise to groups of people that someone wants to vote, and do nothing in other areas. If there's a commercial blaring on about names/faces in one area, with nothing in the other, it's likely that mroe people will pass the test in the one w/ the ads than otherwise. |
Fair enough, but I don't see that as worse than existing "get out the vote" efforts.
| Quote: | | That's exactly the problem, since name/face recognition isn't exactly a decent/fair test of anything except for name/face recognition, and there's really no way to test IIA... |
I said to someone else that being an informed voter is likely to correlate with knowing who occupies important offices in government. For instance if you are an informed voter then you almost certainly know who is Speaker of the House; if you don't know who is Speaker of the House, then you are probably not an informed voter. It isn't that I think identifying photos is all that important, but being able to do it is a probably a good indicator that you can cast an informed vote. Obviously this isn't airtight, but it seems reasonable to me.
| Quote: | | ...the only thing we can do is let people vote however they want to, if they want to, and address lack of voter education in schools/whatnot much earlier. People who feel they have something quantifiable to gain from voting generally do, otherwise they tend not to bother with it. |
I think it is a demand side problem, not a supply side problem. I mean there is an abundance of information available to those who want it (supply), but there just aren't that many people who do (demand). Yet at the sime time we obssess about participating in the system and try to shame people who don't. Better education might have some effect, but I am skeptical about that. In any case, isn't there a conflict of interest when it is government itself that runs the schools? I don't think students will get a truly objective look at the long history of government failure. Voting your self-interest has problems too and tends to lead to incoherent government and ever more services and the taxtion and debt that follows. Did you read the New Yorker article I linked a few posts back?
| Quote: | | That being said, our current political system is rife with corruption, and definitely needs a reworking IMO. |
Agreed. And not just corruption, but also incompetence.
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I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. |
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dmitchell
Veteran
Joined: 17 May 2003
Posts: 1139
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | Back to whether having a test is a good thing, I think it is awful. You (dmitchell) are sounding dangerously like a communist. |
Oh, come on. You know I am not a Communist.
| Quote: | | The end is not responsible govt, the end is a govt by and for the people. I think the end is democracy. |
Really? That seems pretty confused to me. So what do you think about judicial review? Or the president's veto? Or that we have a Senate? All of these are highly undemocratic.
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I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. |
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artificio
Apprentice
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | Fair enough, but I don't see that as worse than existing "get out the vote" efforts. |
Fer sure, but "get out the vote" isn't about influencing which groups will/won't vote legally.
| dmitchell wrote: | | I said to someone else that being an informed voter is likely to correlate with knowing who occupies important offices in government. For instance if you are an informed voter then you almost certainly know who is Speaker of the House; if you don't know who is Speaker of the House, then you are probably not an informed voter. It isn't that I think identifying photos is all that important, but being able to do it is a probably a good indicator that you can cast an informed vote. Obviously this isn't airtight, but it seems reasonable to me. |
I don't think correlation is good enough in this case. Especially given the opportunity to influence who legally votes off of ad campaigns. It may be that more people who know Pelosi know more about the issues but that just isn't enough IMO. Maybe voluntary civil service or something similar? I'm all for meritocracy, especially when it comes to stuff that can have significant externalized deficits like driving, having kids, or voting. But in that case, we would need more than just a simple test, probably a rigorous program with the end result being a license with the recipient being tested every few years in a similar manner to the initial program.
| dmitchell wrote: | | I think it is a demand side problem, not a supply side problem. I mean there is an abundance of information available to those who want it (supply), but there just aren't that many people who do (demand). Yet at the sime time we obssess about participating in the system and try to shame people who don't. Better education might have some effect, but I am skeptical about that. In any case, isn't there a conflict of interest when it is government itself that runs the schools? I don't think students will get a truly objective look at the long history of government failure. |
That's true too. And privatizing schooling may not be the best since profit driven enterprises don't always look out for their ward's best interest (health care). The best way to determine how much people want something is to find out how much they'll work for it. Running that process in a fair and equitable manner is a concern too... 
| dmitchell wrote: | | Voting your self-interest has problems too and tends to lead to incoherent government and ever more services and the taxtion and debt that follows. Did you read the New Yorker article I linked a few posts back? |
Not yet no, thanks for the tip.
| dmitchell wrote: | | Agreed. And not just corruption, but also incompetence. |
One and the same IMO, or at least too close to call.  |
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Ateo
Advocate
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 2019
Location: https://reno.envy.us
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| LD wrote: | | Hopeless wrote: | | LD wrote: | I'd say go back to the way it was pre-Vietnam.
18 old enough to be drafted but not old enough to vote.
And then draft everyone 18 and under and MAKE THEM give something back to the country they will leech off of for the rest of heir lives. Manditory service for providing for their worthless hides. |
I would respond to this, but I've gotten rather bored with feeding the trolls... |
You mean you dislike the idea of people who leech off others beind held accountable.
The only trolls around here are the lot that push the idea of not holding anyone except those who disagree accountable for their actions. Or their own selves. |
it's very stupid to even suggest that anyone under 18 ever be drafted. just plain stupid. even more stupid to label them leeches for they depend on parents/guardians until they are old enough to fend for themselves. What is an under 18 to be held accountable for? Being born?
Did your parents boot you at a young age? Is that why you hate everything? |
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yabbadabbadont
Advocate
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 4790
Location: 2 exits past crazy
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ateo wrote: | it's very stupid to even suggest that anyone under 18 ever be drafted. just plain stupid. even more stupid to label them leeches for they depend on parents/guardians until they are old enough to fend for themselves. What is an under 18 to be held accountable for? Being born?
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Technically, they can draft as young as 17 in the US... at least, that is what I remember from the Vietnam era. |
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cokehabit
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Ateo wrote: | | Did your parents boot you at a young age? Is that why you hate everything? |
no, his mummy never paid him enough attention as a child |
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theethicalatheist
n00b
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 68
Location: University of Massachusetts Lowell
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| yabbadabbadont wrote: | | Ateo wrote: | it's very stupid to even suggest that anyone under 18 ever be drafted. just plain stupid. even more stupid to label them leeches for they depend on parents/guardians until they are old enough to fend for themselves. What is an under 18 to be held accountable for? Being born?
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Technically, they can draft as young as 17 in the US... at least, that is what I remember from the Vietnam era. |
Um, the draft was done away with in 1973.
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Sadako
Advocate
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 3745
Location: sleeping in the bathtub
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| chump wrote: | | yabbadabbadont wrote: | | Ateo wrote: | it's very stupid to even suggest that anyone under 18 ever be drafted. just plain stupid. even more stupid to label them leeches for they depend on parents/guardians until they are old enough to fend for themselves. What is an under 18 to be held accountable for? Being born?
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Technically, they can draft as young as 17 in the US... at least, that is what I remember from the Vietnam era. |
Um, the draft was done away with in 1973. |
Yes, and LD was calling for it to be brought back in for "everybody under 18"...
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"You have to invite me in" |
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yabbadabbadont
Advocate
Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 4790
Location: 2 exits past crazy
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| chump wrote: | | yabbadabbadont wrote: | | Ateo wrote: | it's very stupid to even suggest that anyone under 18 ever be drafted. just plain stupid. even more stupid to label them leeches for they depend on parents/guardians until they are old enough to fend for themselves. What is an under 18 to be held accountable for? Being born?
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Technically, they can draft as young as 17 in the US... at least, that is what I remember from the Vietnam era. |
Um, the draft was done away with in 1973. |
Yes, but I did say, "from the Vietnam era." 
However, every US male is still required to register for the draft when they turn 18. |
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artificio
Apprentice
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| W/o selective service ya can't get federal, and maybe state, financial aid in college. I can't say I minded my free ride much. |
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/dev/random
l33t
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
Posts: 704
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| artificio wrote: | | W/o selective service ya can't get federal, and maybe state, financial aid in college. I can't say I minded my free ride much. |
Yeah, it's also illegal to not register. |
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artificio
Apprentice
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, but it's more jaywalking illegal than armed robbery illegal. |
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