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Do you gentoo users want xine support in totem again ?
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Do you want to be able to build totem with xine backend again ?
Yes
75%
 75%  [ 22 ]
No
24%
 24%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 29

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Devport
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Some Gentoo devs are very unreasonable ? Reply with quote

All the time gentoo devs prevent important changes to the portage tree without reason. Arguments dont seem to be listened to at all, its all about the preconceived ignonrant opinion of a ( view ) gentoo dev(s) - is gentoo leadership a kind of totalitarian dictatorship ?

Here I will give a recent example ( there are many many more like these ) :

Request to (re-)add xine use flag to totem
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176368

Gentoo developers arguments :

- We cant fix bugs in xine
( no more correct arguments to be found )

Users arguments :

- If we dont allow users to use xine because gentoo devs arent able to fix xine why is xine in the portage tree at all. Furthermore why is this an argument since the gstreamer backend bugs arent being fixed by gentoo devs at all and those are a plentitude more than in the xine backend. The gstreamer backend didnt improve since years while the xine backend works flawlesss also since years.
( only developers argument not valid )

- Freedom of choice

- DVD playback is still buggy with gstreamer backend

- The gstreamer backend crashes easily ( play an mpeg2 video and skip back and forth fast and continously )

- The gstreamer backend still does not support accelerated xvmc playback
( Play an mpeg2 video and compare cpu consumption to an xine based player - in my case instead of idling at 1GHz gstreamer playback makes my cpu go to full frequency 2GHz wasting money - you heard of all the cries that earth will die cause we waste resources - power [ among others ] )

- As far as I know by reading on the web gstreamer backend still does not deinterlace e.g. mpeg2 videos
( I cant check it because totem with gstreamer backend crashes before I can skip to a position in a video where I can check it )

The only argument the developers gave is not true and thus not valid. Not to mention that we - the users - supply the required patches and the changes to the ebuild are trivial. Gentoo devs are not able to fix xine lib bugs as much as they are not able to fix gstreamer bugs ( at least they didnt fix the gstreamer backend since several years ).

I started a poll to see what the majority of gentoo users wants with regard to xine support in totem :

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-699146.html


Last edited by Devport on Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are not being un-reasonable. Gentoo dev's can only suppot what upstream will support (with some exceptions)
IF upstream have dropped Xine support then who do gentoo dev's goto when they have possible build issues? they will just get told "go use gstreamer"
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Devport
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
They are not being un-reasonable. Gentoo dev's can only suppot what upstream will support (with some exceptions)
IF upstream have dropped Xine support then who do gentoo dev's goto when they have possible build issues? they will just get told "go use gstreamer"

Upstream supports xine ( and never dropped it ) and they wont drop it till gstreamer is as feature complete and reliable as xine - which isnt the case. Its supported in gnomes bugzilla and threw xinehq.

Edit : Its not only unreasonable - its a lie... the gnome bugzilla even has a component "xine-lib backend" in the totem product bug report and xine backend bugs are handled with same care as gstreamer backend bugs.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

then submit yr ebuild to sunrise so users have a choice then
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Carlo
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Some Gentoo devs are very unreasonable ? Reply with quote

Devport wrote:
All the time gentoo devs prevent important changes to the portage tree without reason. Arguments dont seem to be listened to at all, its all about the preconceived ignonrant opinion of a ( view ) gentoo dev(s) - is gentoo leadership a kind of totalitarian dictatorship ?

First sentence is a full-blown exaggeration. A media player and its backend(s) are not important at all. The second first sentence describes either your refusal to read or your inability to understand the arguments given to you, then glides into trolling. Gentoo is a distribution in the first place, we're not the replacement developers of broken software and as we're a community distribution, it is the community, which steers our course. If you pick up the code and fix it, it is not unlikely you get the Xine backend support back. But you're not a customer to rightfully demand things being fixed for you.

Devport wrote:
If we dont allow users to use xine because gentoo devs arent able to fix xine why is xine in the portage tree at all.

According to the first comment of the bug report you refer to, it is totem's Xine backend, which is broken - not Xine. There is other software in the repository, which works with Xine just fine.


That said, I can understand to want to stay away from GStreamer very well.
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c0d3g33k
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:48 am    Post subject: Re: Some Gentoo devs are very unreasonable ? Reply with quote

Carlo wrote:
If you pick up the code and fix it, it is not unlikely you get the Xine backend support back. But you're not a customer to rightfully demand things being fixed for you.


The original post contains the following: "Not to mention that we - the users - supply the required patches and the changes to the ebuild are trivial."

Doesn't supplying the required patches meet the "if you pick up the code and fix it" requirement? Granted, said patches could be poor and thus not wanted without further work, but if patches are supplied and are of good quality, then your "we won't fix it for you - fix it yourself" argument doesn't apply.

(Disclaimer: I don't have a dog in this fight, I just noticed a discrepancy between the original post and the 'developer response'.)
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desultory
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:04 am    Post subject: Re: Some Gentoo devs are very unreasonable ? Reply with quote

Devport wrote:
I started a poll to see what the majority of gentoo users wants with regard to xine support in totem :

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-699146.html
Merged the poll and split off the post to which it was attached.
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jonnevers
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isn't this thread like 8 months late to the party? i thought the xine removal was an upstream decision in 2.20 or 2.18.

gstreamer still sucks for video playback though, i'd much prefer xine if given the choice.

I have to disagree with one note above about media players not being important at all... I think a well working video player is very important to a given desktop system. totem w/ gstreamer just sort of barely makes the cut; it makes up in functionality what gstreamer detracts in playback.
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Devport
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:09 am    Post subject: Re: Some Gentoo devs are very unreasonable ? Reply with quote

Carlo wrote:
According to the first comment of the bug report you refer to, it is totem's Xine backend, which is broken - not Xine. There is other software in the repository, which works with Xine just fine.

Thats the point - I listed the facts ( that the xine backend is more feature complete and more stable than the gstreamer backend ) but gentoo devs ( including you ) insist on wrong decisions based on wrong assumptions spreading wrong arguments.

In gnome bugzilla the gstreamer backend has 64 open bugs while the xine backend has 18 open bugs - yet the gentoo devs insist that the xine backend is too buggy.

I will leave this discussion now since this is too boring - gentoo devs reiterating false arguments are wasting my time. I have a huge overlay and I get all the features and softwares I want - its the common user that gets punished - not me.

I wont try to contribute to gentoo anymore. It really is too discouraging to argue with gentoo devs on such an unreasonable base.
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Carlo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Some Gentoo devs are very unreasonable ? Reply with quote

c0d3g33k wrote:
The original post contains the following: "Not to mention that we - the users - supply the required patches and the changes to the ebuild are trivial."

Changing the ebuild is indeed trivial. But it is not the ebuild, it's the code quality of the backend, the Gnome devs apparently have problems with and therefore refuse to maintain it. At least in this bug report, there is no reference to relevant patches.


Devport wrote:
In gnome bugzilla the gstreamer backend has 64 open bugs while the xine backend has 18 open bugs - yet the gentoo devs insist that the xine backend is too buggy.

The number of bugs doesn't say anything about the quality - all these bugs could be trivial. Also, what seems to be important here , is that none of the Gentoo devs caring for Gnome has any interest to maintain the Xine backend. Bitching about it doesn't change that. What you may do is contacting Gentoo User Relations, but they can do nothing else than nicely ask for clarification.
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SnakeByte
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me voted "yes"

as much as I like GNOME as my main environment,
and understand the motives behind their moves,
currently some areas just kind of suck from a performance point of view

epiphany vs. firefox
gstreamer vs. xine
metacity vs. enlightenment


regards
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