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erikm
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Joined: 08 Feb 2005
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 Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| zero08 wrote: | | devsk wrote: | 64-bit doesn't give any gain at this time. It does give lot of suffering...If you suffer from the "slowness" bug (documented in this forum), wherein your mouse freezes, windows don't refresh and you can't move between desktops, just because you are compiling a huge package like mythtv and are doing some IO intensive task, you know that you better be running 32-bit.
I happily used amd64 without any issues for 2 years and then something changed in the kernel (around 2.6.18 time frame), and I suddenly found myself suffering from that bug. And after trying really hard (I needed newer kernels), I gave up.
I recently tried to go back to amd64 with 2.6.24 kernel and the problem is still there. |
Dude that is SOOOOO my story!! Drives me fsckin nuts 
But it is a question of honour not to switch back to 32 Bit. Ah well maybe.. mmmh tempting.. |
For all of you experiencing the 'slowness' bug: Try changing I/O scheduler. I had the problem with several CK patched kernels, using their default scheduler (the name of which now escapes me; CFQ?). Since I started using the vanilla sources with the 'deadline' scheduler, the slowdown at heavy I/O is gone.
OT: My 0.02$; AMD64 is faster in some heavy numerical applications coded to exploit 64-bit advantages, but the difference is generally not noticeable on a desktop machine. Since two years of daily Gentoo AMD64 usage, my negative experiences are limited to nspluginwrapper crashing occasionally, which I guess we'll have to live with until a reasonable 64-bit Flash plugin gets released. |
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marcus0263
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Joined: 18 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Been running 64Bit very happily for over two years now. It's been extremely stable, I do a lot of testing with it and use VMWare very heavily along with my day to day surfing, DVD burning, Office work etc. etc. everything runs very nicely. Not to mention being able to have 8 Gig of RAM and actually be able to use it is rather nice. Only major pain in the ass is Sun's Java plugin and that's due to Sun's complete incompetence.
Maybe because the 64Bit forum is so quiet is that it's stable and runs quite nicely 
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appetitus
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Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Hypnos wrote: | | Everything out of Portage works |
Simply checking the links in your sig shows that you have had problems, some still unresolved. It's interesting that you claim 64bit, and also claim that flash/java work, perhaps you utilize a 32bit browser?
You might even have some of the slowdown problems, since I had about 2500 on glxgears a few years ago on a dual P4 Xeon system with a 2nd rate Nvidia card. You fall into the second category, congrats on your diligence tracking down problems.
PS Sun employees have told me that Solaris wasn't 64bit, just a 64bit kernel with a 32bit world. The same as in the ultralinux setup on my old Ultra1. Only Maddogs Alpha was truely 64bit apparently.
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DaggyStyle
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Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| marcus0263 wrote: | Been running 64Bit very happily for over two years now. It's been extremely stable, I do a lot of testing with it and use VMWare very heavily along with my day to day surfing, DVD burning, Office work etc. etc. everything runs very nicely. Not to mention being able to have 8 Gig of RAM and actually be able to use it is rather nice. Only major pain in the ass is Sun's Java plugin and that's due to Sun's complete incompetence.
Maybe because the 64Bit forum is so quiet is that it's stable and runs quite nicely |
youre problem's are over 
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-379693-highlight-.html
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marcus0263
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Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| DaggyStyle wrote: | | marcus0263 wrote: | Been running 64Bit very happily for over two years now. It's been extremely stable, I do a lot of testing with it and use VMWare very heavily along with my day to day surfing, DVD burning, Office work etc. etc. everything runs very nicely. Not to mention being able to have 8 Gig of RAM and actually be able to use it is rather nice. Only major pain in the ass is Sun's Java plugin and that's due to Sun's complete incompetence.
Maybe because the 64Bit forum is so quiet is that it's stable and runs quite nicely |
youre problem's are over
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-379693-highlight-.html |
Yeah I thought about messing about with it, but honestly running 32Bit Firefox is fine until Sun gets off their collective ass
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Hypnos
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| appetitus wrote: | | Simply checking the links in your sig shows that you have had problems, some still unresolved. |
I very much doubt this is related to being 64-bit, but rather to Intel graphics drivers not being mature and the kernel not supporting all the Thinkpad tricky bits. I have not heard of these things magically working when compiling to 32-bit; people would have noticed this with Ubuntu, as AFAIK.
| Quote: | | It's interesting that you claim 64bit, and also claim that flash/java work, perhaps you utilize a 32bit browser? |
No, my browser(s) (Firefox, Epiphany which uses Firefox) are compiled from source, 64-bit. Adobe Flash works using nspluginwrapper; I don't use Java.
| Quote: | | PS Sun employees have told me that Solaris wasn't 64bit, just a 64bit kernel with a 32bit world. The same as in the ultralinux setup on my old Ultra1. Only Maddogs Alpha was truely 64bit apparently. |
Interesting -- more here. If the system codebase didn't use any long's, I guess they were home free Our code certainly did; using a type-abstraction layer (a la glib) solved our problem.
I'm fairly certain Tru64 was 64-bit top-to-bottom.
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drwook
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| I've never benchmarked it but big emerge sessions 'feel' faster on my festering amd64 2800+ than on a slightly faster machine with same RAM I used to have kicking around with a 32 bit install. |
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Hypnos
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| drwook wrote: | | I've never benchmarked it but big emerge sessions 'feel' faster on my festering amd64 2800+ than on a slightly faster machine with same RAM I used to have kicking around with a 32 bit install. |
Maybe play around with Phoronix Testing Suite? There is an ebuild on Bugzilla.
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stmiller
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: Re: AMD64: What does this gain us? Other than suffering? |
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| clytle374 wrote: |
What does 64bit gain us??? |
Computers have gone: 8bit - > 16bit - > 32bit - > 64bit ->
Everything is going to 64bit. In 10 years or so we will be having this discussion about why we need to go from 64bit to 128bit.
While nothing is quite sharply different to the eyes like comparing Windows 3.1 (16bit) to Windows 95 (32bit), 64bit has many gains under the hood. I imagine the biggest differences people will start to notice with 64bit is when we have super high ram possibilities for software.
Already people with Windows XP and Vista 32bit are noticing the annoying 3.x GB ram limit.
But more importantly software has to be written to take advantage of 64bit- and we are in a state of 'meh' with that right now. So depending on what software you use to benchmark 32bit vs. 64bit, you may get varying results.
It's getting there...
Last edited by stmiller on Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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platojones
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: Re: AMD64: What does this gain us? Other than suffering? |
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| clytle374 wrote: | | What does 64bit gain us??? |
More than 4 Gb of ram? Well, yes, that's what it gains us. But, you have to realize...you were on the bleeding edge by going to 64 bit before the mainstream does. The 4Gb wall has now arrived and becoming an issue...and so, finally, there is no where for the products and software to go but 64 bit...it's axiomatic...pure mathematics that cannot be dodged. As more and more consumers realize that they've hit the limit, then 64 bit has started to become more mainstream...and will only continue to do so. You just chose to get out in front with your choice to move to 64 bit before the market forces demanded it...it was a painful experiment (but a voluntary one) for you and many others. It was kind of unnecessary as well, since everybody always knew that this is where we will be heading...there never was any choice Nevertheless, you tested a lot of software in the process and if you gave feedback to the developers, you probably made it better. That is your reward. Many who've suffered for years may give up now...but if they do, then they are giving up just at the moment the inevitable becomes necessary. I say the 32 bit world (of which I am a part), has another 1 to 3 years of life...but not much more than that and it is abosultely doomed in the longer run. Within 6 months, the real push to finally move 64 bit into the mainstream will begin. The rest of us will have to catch up...but, unfairly I think, it will be much easier for us than it was for you. |
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devsk
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Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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Location: Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: Re: AMD64: What does this gain us? Other than suffering? |
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| platojones wrote: | | clytle374 wrote: | | What does 64bit gain us??? |
Within 6 months, the real push to finally move 64 bit into the mainstream will begin. The rest of us will have to catch up...but, unfairly I think, it will be much easier for us than it was for you. |
6 months down the line, you gonna regret this statement....
64-bit has been happening for a while now, and it will keep happening for a while. I moved to 64-bit 4 years ago, and successfully so. And at that time, it was going to happen in next 6 months or a year....
About the only issue that stopped me dead in the tracks was when something happened in kernel from 2.6.17 to 2.6.18 and x86_64 suddenly had slowdowns/freezes during heavy IO. I still experience that issue but at a much smaller scale now, and I am willing to live with it.
PS: BTW, you joined gentoo forums exactly 1 year before me, and I have made 3.23 times your posts, and that day is 2*3=6 days away...... |
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platojones
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: AMD64: What does this gain us? Other than suffering? |
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| devsk wrote: | | platojones wrote: | | clytle374 wrote: | | What does 64bit gain us??? |
Within 6 months, the real push to finally move 64 bit into the mainstream will begin. The rest of us will have to catch up...but, unfairly I think, it will be much easier for us than it was for you. |
6 months down the line, you gonna regret this statement....
64-bit has been happening for a while now, and it will keep happening for a while. I moved to 64-bit 4 years ago, and successfully so. And at that time, it was going to happen in next 6 months or a year....
About the only issue that stopped me dead in the tracks was when something happened in kernel from 2.6.17 to 2.6.18 and x86_64 suddenly had slowdowns/freezes during heavy IO. I still experience that issue but at a much smaller scale now, and I am willing to live with it.
PS: BTW, you joined gentoo forums exactly 1 year before me, and I have made 3.23 times your posts, and that day is 2*3=6 days away...... |
Well, 4 years ago, very few people had 4 GB of memory on their systems...today, that number is rapidly becoming common...and after you hit 4GB, there is no way to go beyond it without going 64 bit...and in 6 months, a new architecture will be out and many people will start upgrading....but you are right, it could be 1 year away...but it is right around the corner, not because people want to transition to 64 bit, but because they will have no choice. DDR2 memory prices are so cheap now, 8 GB can be had for less than $150. I would have bought another 4 GB for my system when I upgraded last month, but unless I went to 64 bit, it would be a waste. So 4 years makes a big difference.
PS: I'm sure you've proved something there, but then again....  |
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appetitus
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Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: AMD64: What does this gain us? Other than suffering? |
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| platojones wrote: | | Well, 4 years ago, very few people had 4 GB of memory on their systems |
True for m$ windows lusers. Lots of people had more memory in *nix.
| Quote: | | after you hit 4GB, there is no way to go beyond it without going 64 bit |
There have been kernel options for more memory for some time, and bank switching schemes to support it.
CP/M systems supposedly had 64k limits, mine had 1.5meg. That was a long time ago in computer years.
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appetitus
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Hypnos wrote: | | appetitus wrote: | | Simply checking the links in your sig shows that you have had problems, some still unresolved. |
I very much doubt this is related to being 64-bit, but rather to Intel graphics drivers not being mature and the kernel not supporting all the Thinkpad tricky bits. I have not heard of these things magically working when compiling to 32-bit; people would have noticed this with Ubuntu, as AFAIK. |
It can be hard to sort out, unless you yourself maintain both systems. For instance, our X61s seem to be different hardware setups.
And that was what I have ended up doing, using gparted to split the disk and setting up a 32bit system. That way, I can make whatever bin-packages I need (much better than a silly chroot setup), since the 64bit and 32bit systems run on identical hardware. I recently got an offer for some 64bit code that would potentially resolve my needs, so I rolled out the 64bit backup to find out. Otherwise, I was gone, as there are only minor differences in this current 64bit surge compared to the eariler ones.
Dual booting 64bit and 32bit systems on the hardware, not chrooting packages, seems like the best work around.
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drozofil
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Joined: 27 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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I've been using gentoo/amd64 stable for six monthes and everything have been going quite well. I heavily use the /etc/portage/ subdirectories to order all the crap that has to be keyworded from times to times. I took a quick overview of the thread without really getting what makes you suffer from your shiny nextgen 64 bits setup. (about nextgen, have you setup IPV6 ?, now is the time !)
I note that some of you are focusing on the 4GB memory limit. Please note that the latest 32bit processors (2 years old from now ?) are all featuring PAE (Physical Address Extension), which allows up to 64GB of RAM (details varies, depends on the mobo, kernel ...). Linux surely supports PAE.
Now the really, painful things about 64 bits IMO is that some proprietary software won't work. Or will work bad. Or will fails in nasty, tricky to detect ways. So I've finally installed a centos/i686 (redhat system, generally supported by everyone). Running this install as a VM does the trick most of the time ; CPU eaters works better if CentOS is booted directly.
And for the little story, CentOS/i686 comes with kernel PAE out of the box (if detected). My 8 gigs of ram were detected at install time. So please put aside the "64 bits systems are needed for systems having more than 4GB of ram". Truth is the real barrier is out there at 64GB. And workstations won't require that kind of capacity for a good while I guess. |
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natros
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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That's true that it's possible to use more than 4GB with PAE, but I think it's not possible for a single process to access more than 4GB.
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drozofil
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Joined: 27 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| natros wrote: | | That's true that it's possible to use more than 4GB with PAE, but I think it's not possible for a single process to access more than 4GB. |
True. For workstations however this is not really a limitation : you want more RAM to have more heavy RAM consumers running at the same time. The limitation might even be seen as a "feature" : firefox won't take more than 4GB, ever.
For servers, most daemons (apache, mysql, various ftpds, authd, whatever ..) come with the "fork" ability, so the 4GB/process isn't that much of a problem either. Spawning a few "process pool" is often a good idea : you have kernel-level security that if some process crashes for whatever reason, you still have the service running (since other daemon processes are still running).
Let me stress that such kind of "forked daemons" doesn't necessarily goes against threading usage. I could elaborate but that's not really relevant to the thread, is it ? |
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chrisstankevitz
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Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 472
Location: Santa Barbara, CA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| marcus0263 wrote: | | use VMWare very heavily |
Which version? I just put together a smoking fast machine. I was surprised how much faster VirtualBox was over vmware:
app-emulation/virtualbox-ose 2.0.2 (~AMD64)
app-emulation/vmware-server 1.0.7.108231 (~AMD64)
Chris |
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platojones
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| drozofil wrote: | I've been using gentoo/amd64 stable for six monthes and everything have been going quite well. I heavily use the /etc/portage/ subdirectories to order all the crap that has to be keyworded from times to times. I took a quick overview of the thread without really getting what makes you suffer from your shiny nextgen 64 bits setup. (about nextgen, have you setup IPV6 ?, now is the time !)
I note that some of you are focusing on the 4GB memory limit. Please note that the latest 32bit processors (2 years old from now ?) are all featuring PAE (Physical Address Extension), which allows up to 64GB of RAM (details varies, depends on the mobo, kernel ...). Linux surely supports PAE.
Now the really, painful things about 64 bits IMO is that some proprietary software won't work. Or will work bad. Or will fails in nasty, tricky to detect ways. So I've finally installed a centos/i686 (redhat system, generally supported by everyone). Running this install as a VM does the trick most of the time ; CPU eaters works better if CentOS is booted directly.
And for the little story, CentOS/i686 comes with kernel PAE out of the box (if detected). My 8 gigs of ram were detected at install time. So please put aside the "64 bits systems are needed for systems having more than 4GB of ram". Truth is the real barrier is out there at 64GB. And workstations won't require that kind of capacity for a good while I guess. |
Good point...forgot about PAE (and I use it because I forgot you have to have it for 4Gb linux systems)....so, no rush then. |
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marcus0263
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| chrisstankevitz wrote: | | marcus0263 wrote: | | use VMWare very heavily |
Which version? I just put together a smoking fast machine. I was surprised how much faster VirtualBox was over vmware:
app-emulation/virtualbox-ose 2.0.2 (~AMD64)
app-emulation/vmware-server 1.0.7.108231 (~AMD64)
Chris |
I'm using VMWare Workstation 6, there are performance improvements with Workstation vs Server. I've maintained a Workstation License since VMWare 4 days.
Anyway here's a decent article comparing the two
http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/09/11/37TC-virtual-workstations_1.html
To sum it up from the article -
| Quote: | | Basically, VirtualBox 2.0 is where VMware Workstation was three to five years ago: a maturing, relatively stable tool for running multiple guest operating systems on a host PC. |
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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I am new on amd64. It is 10 days that my amd64 box is running fine. What I can say is :
- I get a hard time configuring the first kernel.
- Waouh ! 8GB ram is outstanding. Even amule when kad get out of control cannot exhaust my system resources!
- emerge is going at light speed. Other softwares are also going at light speed : alsa and jackd, ng-spice. Xorg is not much faster as before (I don't use Beryl and stuffs like that, fvwm-crystal here), but it is going fast all the time.
- Beside that, every thing with the only exception of ooofice compiled, which crash when I do some wrong manipulations with it, every thing is going faster, smoother and stabler, that with a rt kernel.
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DaggyStyle
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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any eta on the kernel with the rt patch in portage?
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| DaggyStyle wrote: | | any eta on the kernel with the rt patch in portage? |
You will find it into the pro-audio overlay.
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DaggyStyle
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominique_71 wrote: | | DaggyStyle wrote: | | any eta on the kernel with the rt patch in portage? |
You will find it into the pro-audio overlay. |
unfortunately, I need atleast kernel 2.6.27 (new hardware needs newer kernel)
what can I find in these sources? the gentoo set? what about tuxonice?
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kernelOfTruth
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Gentoo on AMD64
