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| Would you leave the current Gentoo for a D.Robbins led "Gentoo fork"? |
| Yes |
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49% |
[ 194 ] |
| No |
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43% |
[ 168 ] |
| Only if he retains and uses the Gentoo trademark to form a "New Gentoo". |
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7% |
[ 28 ] |
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| Total Votes : 390 |
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yoshi314
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Joined: 30 Dec 2004
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Location: PL
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 Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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the problem of gentoo is - there are no long-term goals.
the only goal i see is "keep adding ebuilds to the tree, and keep them in sync with software updates". there is not much happening aside from that.
daniel was a man who designed gentoo, and somebody like him would help give this distribution a real purpose, aside from being just a collection of from-source build scripts.
i hope he will do a fork. competition is never a bad thing and always leads to improvement.
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batistuta
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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I' curious why some people voted the option "Only if he retains and uses the Gentoo trademark to form a "New Gentoo"". The name is for me something very irrelevant, so that puzzles me. Could one of these voters please give a reason why this is important for them? I'm probably missing something  |
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Paapaa
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Location: Finland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| yoshi314 wrote: | | the problem of gentoo is - there are no long-term goals. |
Are there long term goals in Linux kernel development? Do you see that also as a problem?
EDIT: And actually we have long term plans: GLEP
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AllenJB
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| What long term goals would you like to see? |
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kernelOfTruth
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EzInKy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| batistuta wrote: | | I' curious why some people voted the option "Only if he retains and uses the Gentoo trademark to form a "New Gentoo"". The name is for me something very irrelevant, so that puzzles me. Could one of these voters please give a reason why this is important for them? I'm probably missing something |
I choose that option because I believe the fork would be successful with the Gentoo marks. From reading the developers blogs and lists posts most of them don't appear to be much interested in anything non-technical so I doubt they could market the distro very well under a different name.
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Paapaa
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| kernelOfTruth wrote: | | what kind of cocky morons actually are working at gentoo? |
There are better formed opinions also. This is from Daniel Drake:
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/msg_01427.xml
It seems that many developers are against the proposal Drobbins made. And unlike these "g333, br1nGzor, rd0bBins bak t0 gEntoo1!1!1!" comments devs have actually tried to reason their opinions. I also wonder why Drobbins is not having this conversation in proper place, like Gentoo-nfp mailing list? He apparently has some private conversation via email and then there is his blog. Why not have a public conversation with the parties involved?
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blazeu
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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I don't get it. If we, The Users, want to give power and responsibility back to Daniel why them, The Devs, don't let it happen. We're using distro, they're merely creating it. I know that without them Gentoo wouldn't be the same, but without us there wouldn't be Gentoo, ffs. He's not going to throw them away, or yell at them, just put Gentoo on right tracks. And yes, maybe Grant Goodyear send those papers and so one... But hell, he was half a year late. Why? For me, it's too little, too late...
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Paapaa
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| blazeu wrote: | | I know that without them Gentoo wouldn't be the same, but without us there wouldn't be Gentoo, ffs. |
Totally the opposite. Without devs there would be no Gentoo. Users use the content developers create. Also developers themselves use it so they are also users. Just like there would be no Linux without Linus.
IMO those who do the work should have more to say in these matters. Especially because devs have to be able to work in the proposed new conditions and with new people.
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batistuta
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| blazeu wrote: | | I don't get it. If we, The Users, want to give power and responsibility back to Daniel why them, The Devs, don't let it happen. We're using distro, they're merely creating it. I know that without them Gentoo wouldn't be the same, but without us there wouldn't be Gentoo, ffs. He's not going to throw them away, or yell at them, just put Gentoo on right tracks. And yes, maybe Grant Goodyear send those papers and so one... But hell, he was half a year late. Why? For me, it's too little, too late... |
First, not all users want that. Don't take these polls as representative please. And one big reason is because this is not the "right" way. Gentoo spent lots of time setting up a system. A way how it should work. That'd be are like saying "forget the rules, get Daniel back". Is going against Gentoo itself because Gentoo is not just a bunch of ebuilds, it is a whole community and an organized structure. Let me say that I'd probably follow an eventual fork. But giving Gentoo back to Daniel is not the "Gentoo" way.
| EzInKy wrote: | | I choose that option because I believe the fork would be successful with the Gentoo marks. From reading the developers blogs and lists posts most of them don't appear to be much interested in anything non-technical so I doubt they could market the distro very well under a different name. |
Mhhh... I see your point. Thanks for clarifying. At least for the short term I think you have a very valid point. Not sure in the long term though. I think that if Daniel creates a good fork, Gentoo devs would migrate to it in an exponential fashion. It's just speculation, of course... you might be right as well. So if Daniel forks without the Gentoo brand, I'll bet you an e-beer that devs will follow him  |
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M
Guru
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| You are all morons, not the developers, will you ever stop whining? I can't listen this anymore, If you want to help, than you can actually try to do something, else go find yourself another distro, Ubuntu or something else... Leave this "poor distro which has no one to take care of" to us and don't come back. What do you think will be better if we have foundation right now, what is so wrong with gentoo? Everything is just fine, the only problem we have come from season users in this and similar threads... this is not a commercial project you know! I am not using gentoo because it have the most beautiful web page, or so I can read the fine newsletter every week... If you want commercial distro than you just have to go and pick it... This is gentoo, things are different here and I am glad they are. Stop attacking developers and calling them like that, you don't like it, leave! |
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blazeu
Apprentice
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 159
Location: Cracow, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | blazeu wrote: | | I know that without them Gentoo wouldn't be the same, but without us there wouldn't be Gentoo, ffs. |
Totally the opposite. Without devs there would be no Gentoo. Users use the content developers create. Also developers themselves use it so they are also users. Just like there would be no Linux without Linus.
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Without users there would be no Gentoo either... Who would test ebuilds, propose new software, become devs eventually. I think that most of the devs are former gentoo users. So without users there would be no devs.
| Paapaa wrote: |
IMO those who do the work should have more to say in these matters. Especially because devs have to be able to work in the proposed new conditions and with new people. |
No. We're the community. There should be some communication (not only in fgo) between Users and Devs. Looking from the outside Gentoo is dead. No GWN, no new posts on the main site, no new releases, no anything. For majority of Users (p.ex. for me) this communication is unimportant. We know how to swim with sharks in fgo, use search button, and such, but for rest of us (including neewbies and soon-to-be-using-gentoo-users) communication and knowing that gentoo project is not dead is crucial. Robbins wants to reorganize Foundation. Why don't let him do it? Once he created some good distro, AFAIR
| M wrote: | | You are all morons, not the developers, will you ever stop whining? I can't listen this anymore, If you want to help, than you can actually try to do something, else go find yourself another distro, Ubuntu or something else... Leave this "poor distro which has no one to take care of" to us and don't come back. What do you think will be better if we have foundation right now, what is so wrong with gentoo? Everything is just fine, the only problem we have come from season users in this and similar threads... this is not a commercial project you know! I am not using gentoo because it have the most beautiful web page, or so I can read the fine newsletter every week... If you want commercial distro than you just have to go and pick it... This is gentoo, things are different here and I am glad they are. Stop attacking developers and calling them like that, you don't like it, leave! |
Oh, meen.. I can see some disturbing resemblance to Chris Crocker and "Leave Britney alone"... :] I don't have to commit to Gentoo. I have my work, my family and friends. But i would like to see life in my favourite distro. If Devs are great, why they're so afraid of some criticism and change? And if "everything is just fine" why the charter get revoked?
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EzInKy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| batistuta wrote: |
Mhhh... I see your point. Thanks for clarifying. At least for the short term I think you have a very valid point. Not sure in the long term though. I think that if Daniel creates a good fork, Gentoo devs would migrate to it in an exponential fashion. It's just speculation, of course... you might be right as well. So if Daniel forks without the Gentoo brand, I'll bet you an e-beer that devs will follow him |
Well if this post by Daniel in his blog comments is any indication we just might find out how that bet turns out:
| Quote: |
Daniel Robbins said...
Hey Welp,
I think a fork could definitely be very successful, BUT that option should not be considered lightly.
However, if a fork could help eliminate the sense of privilege and misguided pride that this commenter holds, then it could be very personally satisfying
Really, I think it's time that Gentoo goes distributed with the Portage tree. Bazaar, although new, seems really nice. Mercurial I am not so hot on, but it's yet another distributed source tool that could be used. I think the old way of a central tree tends to require too huge a development team, and it's a full-time job to police the jerks on the project who insult devs on bugs.gentoo.org and in various other forums.
I just think that going distributed would allow smaller, better-managed groups to achieve at least as much as what Gentoo as a whole is doing right now, and also help foster collaboration with other Gentoo-ish projects out there. Without someone in charge who truly cares about the project (which doesn't need to be me, by the way,) it's hard for the centralized model to serve users, enforce standards of conduct in a constructive way, etc.
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Personally, I'm still pretty much ambivalent on the matter though some of the dev's comments are starting to sway me towards supporting a fork even if it is under a different name. Funtoo does have a nice ring to it.
EDIT:
All this hullabaloo really has me thinking I should be putting more work into my linux from scratch partition, just in case things really fall apart B-)
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Paapaa
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| blazeu wrote: | | Without users there would be no Gentoo either... Who would test ebuilds, propose new software, become devs eventually. I think that most of the devs are former gentoo users. So without users there would be no devs. |
You overvalue yourself as a user. You seem to forget that devs don't do this for only you. They keep on developing because THEY are also users. They benefit themselves from the work they do (and they also do it Just For Fun). There can definitely be developers without non-contributing users. Every single new software project starts from that state: one dev, no users. Of course a large userbase is beneficial in many ways but devs do the actual hard work.
| blazeu wrote: | | No GWN, no new posts on the main site, no new releases, no anything. |
There is now GMN (partly because I started a thread about the issue last year and one forum member proposed a new name). There is also a few other news items:
http://www.gentoo.org/
Did you (as a user) provide new content to the Gentoo homepage? If not, then you have even less basis for saying the users make Gentoo...
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| blazeu wrote: | | Without users there would be no Gentoo either... Who would test ebuilds, propose new software, become devs eventually. I think that most of the devs are former gentoo users. So without users there would be no devs. |
Agreed: both groups are needed, but as Paapaa says, without users a project can continue (for a while); without devs it cannot. Devs need users too though.
| Quote: | | Paapaa wrote: |
IMO those who do the work should have more to say in these matters. Especially because devs have to be able to work in the proposed new conditions and with new people. |
No. We're the community. |
Hang on a second: users can just walk away whenever they want to. Devs can do that too, but if as a group they're saying they don't like the proposed new conditions (a complete change in the current structure, and answerable to only one individual who most of them don't know, who would also take copyright over everyone's work) who are we to argue about it? We know little about working on Gentoo. And I wouldn't go for that "offer" either.
| Quote: | | There should be some communication (not only in fgo) between Users and Devs. |
Agreed and there is: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml or irc.freenode.org where all the herds hang out; see http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/irc.xml
| Quote: | | Looking from the outside Gentoo is dead. No GWN, no new posts on the main site, no new releases, no anything. For majority of Users (p.ex. for me) this communication is unimportant. |
Glad you've admitted that: maybe you could check out some of the other channels for communication besides this forum before you assume there is no such communication? The GMN is coming (and it's an area anyone can help with, so I look forward to reading one of your articles soon) and the new release is being worked on (have you seen how many security bugs there were?) but lack of it didn't stop me doing a fresh install a couple of weeks ago.
| Quote: | | We know how to swim with sharks in fgo, use search button, and such, but for rest of us (including neewbies and soon-to-be-using-gentoo-users) communication and knowing that gentoo project is not dead is crucial. |
So basically non-users? Newbs usually turn up in #gentoo tbh and from there learn about other channels (and the whole IRC thing.) I recommend #bash if you want to learn netiquette quickly (and trust me, you won't think Gentoo devs are that unfriendly after you've been in there ;) Yeah PR could be better, and dberkholz has now taken on that project. Again anyone can help with it since it doesn't require technical skill: pr@gentoo.org would be glad to hear from you iff you truly want to help out.
| Quote: | | Robbins wants to reorganize Foundation. Why don't let him do it? Once he created some good distro, AFAIR :) |
Right, so that's enough reason to let him walk in and take complete control over everything? He doesn't just want to reorganise the Foundation (the legal side) he wants it to override the Council too. And he's not exactly democratic: he wants all his own appointees to the Board. All of this is totally against the Gentoo setup which has delivered real technical improvements since he left: Gentoo is a hell of a lot easier to maintain now than in 2003.
I don't think we should let him divide us as a Community: yes user involvement needs to be worked on, and the devs who look down on users need a kick up the arse. But the vast majority of Gentoo devs are well aware they used to be users too, and are actually pretty decent people. You trust them to deliver software to your computer at a root level: why not trust them to decide whether or not they want to be ruled by drobbins?
| Quote: | | And if "everything is just fine" why the charter get revoked? |
Take a look at the nfp list archive, before this furore: read back from say the start of last year and you'll see why for yourself. You'll also see that William Thompson was regularly asking for progress reports, and that the plan was to move to the SFC which said we had to wait at least 60-90 days. Only one person (who seems to give legal advice) wanted to stand as a trustee so there was no election since there were not enough candidates and the consensus seemed to be to just move to the SFC as and when.
drobbins knew all about this (and he could have removed himself as nominal President at any point) but took zero action. He could have had a discussion on that list whenever he wanted: it would have been transparent and open, and not a naked grab for power by stirring up user discontent. And I note that while he sends users to flame that list, he himself has not deigned to engage in the discussion. Some leader. |
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blazeu
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Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 159
Location: Cracow, Poland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | blazeu wrote: | | Without users there would be no Gentoo either... Who would test ebuilds, propose new software, become devs eventually. I think that most of the devs are former gentoo users. So without users there would be no devs. |
You overvalue yourself as a user. You seem to forget that devs don't do this for only you. They keep on developing because THEY are also users. They benefit themselves from the work they do (and they also do it Just For Fun). There can definitely be developers without non-contributing users.
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Hmm... Let's see.. All those distro's that are dead. They died, because there were no devs or no users? And personally, I don't believe that all Devs are doing it just for fun. Sometimes they doing it, because they want to help others (those overvalued Users).
| Paapaa wrote: |
Did you (as a user) provide new content to the Gentoo homepage? If not, then you have even less basis for saying the users make Gentoo... |
Why? I'm a user. As a user I don't contribute. That's the definition of user. He is __USING__ software. To be honest few times i helped my friends during installation and configuration of their own gentoo distro, so i could say that i've helped, and i have all rights to criticise...
| Quote: | | and it's an area anyone can help with, so I look forward to reading one of your articles soon |
Same answer as above. I'm just the user. I don't have time to write an article, nor do I have the abilities. But why are you denying me my right to say one thing or two? To criticise, give some advice or express my opinion?
And you said, that I should go to the irc channel or write to the newsletter... What if i don't know how or don't want to? Look at the archlinux page. Their page is one of the best distro pages I've seen.
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vitaemortis
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Joined: 25 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | blazeu wrote: | | I know that without them Gentoo wouldn't be the same, but without us there wouldn't be Gentoo, ffs. |
Totally the opposite. Without devs there would be no Gentoo. Users use the content developers create. Also developers themselves use it so they are also users. Just like there would be no Linux without Linus.
IMO those who do the work should have more to say in these matters. Especially because devs have to be able to work in the proposed new conditions and with new people. |
I do not know if you are right. I for myself think that both groups are needed to have a working Gentoo. Without developers gentoo would eighter die or new developer would take the place of the old one.
Without users, Gentoo develpers would get fewer and fewer. Who wants to take their time to develop for something that big, if no one uses it. So without users Gentoo will die too.
To the gentoo management problem. I think the foundation, which is really only a legal mantel for the project does raise needs to be manned in a different way then it is now. Something like the loosing of a legal status of its status itself, (even if it is resolved by now) is something that is not allowed to happen and to stay without change in the management.
In the development Part, I think most things are going ok, i would have liked it better if the overlay developers would have been erlier been official gentoo developers so that the time between release of KDE 4.0 until it is part of the portage would have been smaller. But hey i do not know all the story behind that, and since KDE is releasing its first reversion next week, not to important.
But the developer might want to think over the portage - overlay system. I think a well build system co existing system, with a much smaller portage together with a network of official overlays might give the developers on the one side a few new sparks how to handle the amount off software wanting to be maintained by Gentoo. And for the users it might give them even more freedom in matters of the configuration of their system.
For the users. Many users (me included) wants to use the system, because they think it is one of the best concepts out there. but they do not want to get involved in the system as developers. This happens out of different valid reasons (beginning from time, going over the complexity of gentoo, down to the skill of the partikular user). And they should not need to become developers in oder to say their opinion in every matter of the project, because as annoying those not contributing, demanding users (as i am one) are, they are also a not to be left out part of the ecosystem of Gentoo. Gentoo was and is a project which has the aim to be used by as many people as possible. And as long as those users complain, Gentoo is not dead, or finished. People only say something to a project if they have something to complain about. Since Gentoo is bound to have always some problem or the other, the only reason users might stop complaining is, when they stop using it. And after that it is only a matter of time until gentoo will bites the dust.
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| blazeu wrote: | | Quote: | | and it's an area anyone can help with, so I look forward to reading one of your articles soon |
Same answer as above. I'm just the user. I don't have time to write an article, nor do I have the abilities. But why are you denying me my right to say one thing or two? To criticise, give some advice or express my opinion? |
Fine; you're just a user who wants to contribute nothing. Why on earth should I give a damn about your opinion? How useful can your advice be when you are so uninvolved and know nothing about the situation you want to advise about?
| Quote: | | And you said, that I should go to the irc channel or write to the newsletter... What if i don't know how or don't want to? Look at the archlinux page. Their page is one of the best distro pages I've seen. |
Aww, you can use the web, but not irc? I'm amazed you even made it through a Gentoo install. If you want the news to be better, help out with it. You don't need much to interact with a mailing-list either; you can use email I hope?
"With Free Software you either do, or you wait." Pick one. Whinging gets nowhere and just annoys people; especially when you only say what you want and expect others to do the work. |
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kernelOfTruth
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Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Vienna, Austria; Germany; hello world :)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Did you (as a user) provide new content to the Gentoo homepage? If not, then you have even less basis for saying the users make Gentoo... |
is that the only thing that counts ?
I'm helping people / users on the forums, provide some new (mostly renamed) ebuilds, a livecd series, report bugs on bgo & upstream ... - I think that should be enough
after all I have a life to live 
I think the devs or other people who are involved e.g. dberkholz could set up a homepage for the non-devs which needs to be done
e.g. sending in monthly / weekly stories, tips, whatever
make this half-automagically and you have a great community-page
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EzInKy
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Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: |
I don't think we should let him divide us as a Community: yes user involvement needs to be worked on, and the devs who look down on users need a kick up the arse.
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Perhaps the best way start kicking those devs who look down on users a kick in the arse would be to officially define users as being part of the community. One notable difference between Gentoo's Social Contract and Debian's is that the latter contains this clause:
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4. Our priorities are our users and free software
We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We will support the needs of our users for operation in many different kinds of computing environments...
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| kernelOfTruth wrote: | | Quote: | | Did you (as a user) provide new content to the Gentoo homepage? If not, then you have even less basis for saying the users make Gentoo... |
is that the only thing that counts ? |
Of course not. I was just pointing out that there actually has to be someone writing the content to GWN. That someone can be anyone.
| blazeu wrote: | | Why? I'm a user. As a user I don't contribute. That's the definition of user. He is __USING__ software. |
So you don't want to contribute anything at all and you think that YOU should have the deciding word how to lead and develop Gentoo? Come on, that is just ridiculous.
A contributing user is a lot more valuable to Gentoo than those who don't contribute.
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Paludis, the way packages are meant to be managed. |
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batistuta
Veteran
Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 1384
Location: Aachen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | There can definitely be developers without non-contributing users. |
Sure. There can be families without kids. What's your point? And would you be proud to say that you are a developer of software that only you use? That'd be really useful 
| Paapaa wrote: | | Every single new software project starts from that state: one dev, no users. |
I think at that stage is more an experiment than a project.
| Paapaa wrote: | | Of course a large userbase is beneficial in many ways but devs do the actual hard work |
If you take one-to-one bases (one user per one dev) then you could say that devs invest more time on the project. But users or devs as a whole is a different story. Users test the system and file bugs, report problems, or show happiness, which at the same time motivates devs to keep working.
If users had not been there, this distro would be a very different thing than it is today.
| M wrote: | ...
*** ranting ***
...
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Following your same principle: if you can't take this discussion anymore, then please stay away from this thread.
Personally, I don't think the question is whether people would follow or not Daniel in an eventual fork. I think if Daniel forks, game is over. I wouldn't then give Gentoo more than three years of life (measuring life as to disappearing from Distrowatch top charts, and as one of the most popular distros as mentioned in every Linux book) |
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| batistuta wrote: | | Sure. There can be families without kids. What's your point? |
My point is that I think developers are more important for Gentoo than non-contributing users. Simple as that.
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Paludis, the way packages are meant to be managed.
Last edited by Paapaa on Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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kernelOfTruth
Watchman
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 6111
Location: Vienna, Austria; Germany; hello world :)
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mark_alec
Bodhisattva
Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 6066
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| M wrote: | | You are all morons...! |
Please be very careful with the language you use. Personal attacks are not tolerated on these forums as specified in the guidelines.
Consider this a warning for all participating in the thread to be civil, or don't post at all.
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www.gentoo.org.au || #gentoo-au |
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