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| Should the Gentoo trustees accept Daniel Robbins offer? |
| yes |
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| no |
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| Total Votes : 696 |
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platojones
Veteran
Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 1391
Location: Just over the horizon
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 Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Ahh, so you're prepared to spout commandments^Wadvice, but not abide by it yourself... |
Pass the ketchup, it's about to rain. |
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Tolstoi
Guru
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 568
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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I'm not very well informed about all the things going on and who is quarelling for which reasons with whom, maybe that's good, maybe not.
The way I see it is:
- There is a distro with a goal or attitude
- Developers gather around and want to work/contribute
- Users decide to use the distro because they are kind of attracted to it and some maybe want to contribute to the community/ the project or
whatever
So we have a kind of hierarchy and also a way that shows us how communication could/should take place. I say that because I get the feeling that communication has gone wrong.
- It's important that the project and the people leading it have clear goals and take care of them
- As a developer you are integrated in the process of contributing to the goals of the project
- As a user you either use the distro, contribute to a certain degree
As a user, when not satisfied anymore with the project, you leave and look for something else. When you are a developer and discover that your own attitudes are not in common with the project, you leave.
But it's all about balance and to which degree the parts of the project communicate with each other. It makes no sense when a very active user of the community argues too much with devs. And a dev arguing too much with others and endangering the project isn't good either.
As I said it's about balance and how far discussion is carried without harming the project. |
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alveraan
n00b
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 59
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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I think what most agree on is that gentoo has some big problems atm and maybe it indeed needs some kind of a leader that helps coordinate the project. On the other hand, I understand that some devs have reservations mostly based on their past experience with him. But I also believe that drobbins is truly interested in gentoos "well-being" - after all it was his baby. So why not propose him a compromise.
One possibility could be to propose him a limited (half year?) term as president. Then when that is over, let the devs vote on a more permanent assignment. Just an idea though.
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huhn_m
n00b
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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the problem with you, AllenJB is not WHAT you say. You might even have some valid points. Or not. But they
way you say it. Your point gets lost in senseless and arrogant posing.
If I told you:
"You are a stupid fucking bastard for believing that Spaceships can actually battle in orbit like in Star Wars. You must be a fool to believe it but anyways. Then again you are just a stupid and retarded as the masses who try to speak about things they don't understand".
The problem would NOT be WHAT I said but how I did it.
The Tone makes the music and who wants to listen to a Cacophony? Your point gets lost in insulting others.
I don't know what you did for the community or what you know about it. I'm not here too often myself but am
a regular Gentoo user since 2004. You might even be a superb person knowing lots of things. Still your voice will never
be heard by the "stupid masses" because people in general don't listen to others insulting them. |
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Maedhros
Bodhisattva
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 5511
Location: Durham, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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AllenJB and platojones: Stop it, both of you. I don't know who started this little spat, and I don't really care, but please can you both let it go, now.
Everyone: I know this is an issue that incites strong emotions, but please keep your posts professional and courteous, and within the forum Guidelines. Thank you.
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MoonWalker
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Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Tolstoi wrote: | | As a user, when not satisfied anymore with the project, you leave and look for something else. |
Well in the case of Gentoo I don't think it's that easy for many of us, simply because there is no other distro gentoo alike. asaik it's the only meta-distro of its kind. For us that really are hooked on this concept there simply are no alternatives.
So what is left is that the one and only Gentoo has to be run and managed in a proper way.
Otherwise I think you give a core accurate description 
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tulcod
Apprentice
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 181
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| MoonWalker wrote: | | Tolstoi wrote: | | As a user, when not satisfied anymore with the project, you leave and look for something else. |
Well in the case of Gentoo I don't think it's that easy for many of us, simply because there is no other distro gentoo alike. asaik it's the only meta-distro of its kind. For us that really are hooked on this concept there simply are no alternatives.
[...] |
no alternatives?
freebsd, arch linux, (kinda gobolinux,) slack, plenty, the only thing you need to add is a couple of scripts to do the same gentoo does for you...
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Ibn al-Hazardous
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 132
Location: Somewhere deep in the desert.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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There are still a bunch of people going on about gentoo as a project not being in a decline. So, once again, check out the statistics Donnie Berkholz gathered for an article in LWN: http://lwn.net/Articles/253875/
If you look at the second and third diagram, you'll clearly see that gentoo has been losing ca 40% of its developers for the last two years. The problem is that for all that time, the portage tree has been growing. So, fewer people give their tender love to more software. I can't see how that could go on, without an increase in bugs.
This is a big problem, and leadership (be it council, trustees, or some other entity) need to take it seriously. Whether the leader is drobbins or someone else is not interesting. Whether we can be led by a commitee (sp?) without declining is another altogether. Frankly, I think that can't work - and that's why we are where we are. (Oh how I loathe Bruce Perens, but where would Debian have been today, without him?)
Devs are quitting, users are leaving... So take the problem seriously already!
PS
And why do you think we're not getting new blood? It could be because of the snarky responses to bug filings, new ebuild filings, patch filings, etc. Of course people don't offer bug reports and patches if the get flamed for not having sacrificed a chicken at dawn, before submitting stuff.
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MoonWalker
Guru
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| tulcod wrote: | | MoonWalker wrote: | | Tolstoi wrote: | | As a user, when not satisfied anymore with the project, you leave and look for something else. |
Well in the case of Gentoo I don't think it's that easy for many of us, simply because there is no other distro gentoo alike. asaik it's the only meta-distro of its kind. For us that really are hooked on this concept there simply are no alternatives.
[...] |
no alternatives?
freebsd, arch linux, (kinda gobolinux,) slack, plenty, the only thing you need to add is a couple of scripts to do the same gentoo does for you... |
They are not meta, and no it's not just a question of adding few scripts. Eos
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8mihi
n00b
Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Eastern 'Pennsyltucky'
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | drobbins (from his blog post) ...Beyond this, you can expect everything to be very, very different than how things are today.
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I've Been using Gentoo a while (since '04) and still find it be an excellent distribution for my needs (note: not a GNU/Linux newbie: Slackware since '95). Still, from what I've read about developer/user relations the past couple years and recent foundation fumbles, "very,very different than how things are today", eh, sounds pretty good to me.
I say: Leave the Connolis...Take the 'offer'
I Want To Believe (in Gentoo) |
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Kasumi_Ninja
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Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 1825
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ps wrote: | My "gut feeling" is this:
Those of you who know what is "really" going on here are doing everything you can to keep it hidden.
This will be your downfall.
See:
http://www.debian.org/social_contract
respectfully,
ps |
Try investing some time and you'll find out whats "hidden". There is nothing worse then acting or speaking on intuition (gut feeling) based on half or incomplete information.
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AllenJB
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1282
Location: Ashford, Kent
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Ibn al-Hazardous wrote: | There are still a bunch of people going on about gentoo as a project not being in a decline. So, once again, check out the statistics Donnie Berkholz gathered for an article in LWN: http://lwn.net/Articles/253875/
If you look at the second and third diagram, you'll clearly see that gentoo has been losing ca 40% of its developers for the last two years. The problem is that for all that time, the portage tree has been growing. So, fewer people give their tender love to more software. I can't see how that could go on, without an increase in bugs. |
The second graph doesn't tell us anything about when developers retired. It only tells us about the recruitment date of retired and active developers on the date the graph was created.
There are factors to partially explain the results on the third graph - overlays (which are stored in svn, not cvs) for example have replaced masked packages as the primary form of testing new packages, resulting in less commits to the main tree in cvs. There was also a point where a large amount of triage was carried out, axing many packages that had been put in the tree and then left to rot for various reasons - developers are now, as far as I've seen, a lot more cautious about simply adding new packages to the main tree, instead using overlays to carry these packages.
Also, as pointed out in the later graphs, it wasn't largely active developers who retired, but inactive ones.
I don't believe developers or users are leaving en masse as you claim. People are always claiming this and I've never seen it to be true.
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Slalomsk8er
Apprentice
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 228
Location: Münchenstein, Switzerland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: let us do some thing usefull |
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I am a longtime Gentoo user and server administrator.
I think it is time for us stupid (as AllenJB puts it) community heads to put our little intelligence and knowledge together and do openly what I hope the developers are doing in there private core list (what a shame in a open source project!).
Let us list the things that we feel in our guts are not going the right way at Gentoo.
The last events showed me one thing above all: that I, we the community and the developers at large closed our eyes about some big unpleasant things that were going on since years in this project we call Gentoo our beloved distribution.
I have an idea what I and you my fellow community members can do to help us all. Let us use community tools to address the issues at hand not only the current one with the foundation but all things that are going wrong in our own eyes.
I propose to use the gentoo-wiki.com to start an article about the things that we think go wrong at Gentoo and use this forum to discuss the individual problems.
I invite every one to state there "gut feelings" and concerns but I will keep it in the form of:
Problem: x
why problem x exists: reasons and history
fix for the problem: best possible actions and there most likely consequences
I started the page and will keep it focused on the matter for at least the next week.
Let the dance begin here http://gentoo-wiki.com/Problems_at_Gentoo and http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-4721366.html#4721366 |
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AllenJB
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1282
Location: Ashford, Kent
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| Slalomsk8er wrote: | | The last events showed me one thing above all: that I, we the community and the developers at large closed our eyes about some big unpleasant things that were going on since years in this project we call Gentoo our beloved distribution. |
It's not that people "closed their eyes" - people, even developers, just aren't interested in legal paperwork (which is why the Trustees were created in the first place), so never bothered themselves with such details
| Quote: | I have an idea what I and you my fellow community members can do to help us all. Let us use community tools to address the issues at hand not only the current one with the foundation but all things that are going wrong in our own eyes.
I propose to use the gentoo-wiki.com to start an article about the things that we think go wrong at Gentoo and use this forum to discuss the individual problems. |
Please don't use the wiki. This is an issue to be discussed, as we have been doing on the forums, not create a set page on. The wiki is for documentation, not communtiy discussions. Additionally this issue will be far too short lived and I pedict that the article will only be counter-edited hundreds of times by people who want to make sure the article reads a certain way (see wikipedia).
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Last edited by AllenJB on Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MoonWalker
Guru
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| Slalomsk8er wrote: | I am a longtime Gentoo user and server administrator.
...
I invite every one to state there "gut feelings" and concerns but I will keep it in the form of:
Problem: x
why problem x exists: reasons and history
fix for the problem: best possible actions and there most likely consequences
I started the page and will keep it focused on the matter for at least the next week.
Let the dance begin here http://gentoo-wiki.com/Problems_at_Gentoo and http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-4721366.html#4721366 |
It got a real good start
| Code: | This page is a candidate for deletion
Reason given: Not a good topic for this wiki. This is a short term situation which will be resolved by the devs. Use the gentoo forums for discussion.
... |
Can't tell though if this is a symptom of "computer automation stupidity" or of what's going... ala "stupid user get back in line and shut up in your sandbox".
EDIT: Ohh now I finally got it, the current dictatorship doesn't what to be kicked out by a new one - that's quite understandable 
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Living on earth is expensive, but it includes a free trip around the sun
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Last edited by MoonWalker on Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AllenJB
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1282
Location: Ashford, Kent
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| MoonWalker wrote: | | Can't tell though if this is a symptom of "computer automation stupidity" or of what's going... ala "stupid user get back in line and shut up in your sandbox". |
As someone who volunteers their time to try to keep the wiki tidy, I placed the deletion nomination because the wiki is for documentation, not community discussion. That purpose is served much better by the forums.
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tulcod
Apprentice
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 181
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| MoonWalker wrote: | [...]
Can't tell though if this is a symptom of "computer automation stupidity" or of what's going... ala "stupid user get back in line and shut up in your sandbox". |
Now, this is yet another _stupid_ whine. A wiki is for information, not for spreading your complaints. a forum is for discussion, a wiki uses talk pages for discussion of certain articles, because those discussions are per article instead of per project. don't use a wiki for complaints of a totally different project.
edit: argh, allenJB beat me :p
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Slalomsk8er
Apprentice
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 228
Location: Münchenstein, Switzerland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| AllenJB wrote: |
Please don't use the wiki. This is an issue to be discussed, as we have been doing on the forums, not create a set page on. Additionally this issue will be far too short lived and I pedict that the article will only be counter-edited hundreds of times by people who want to make sure the article reads a certain way (see wikipedia). |
Don't you think this is only the tip of the iceberg? I plan on managing the wiki page for some time and on a bigger scope then just this "little" problem.
Oh, and there is a discussion thread i opened for this matter too and it is even linked in my post. So watch and enjoy to show if you don't like to contribute but don't get in my way with your rhetorics please. |
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AllenJB
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1282
Location: Ashford, Kent
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| Slalomsk8er wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: |
Please don't use the wiki. This is an issue to be discussed, as we have been doing on the forums, not create a set page on. Additionally this issue will be far too short lived and I pedict that the article will only be counter-edited hundreds of times by people who want to make sure the article reads a certain way (see wikipedia). |
Don't you think this is only the tip of the iceberg? I plan on managing the wiki page for some time and on a bigger scope then just this "little" problem.
Oh, and there is a discussion thread i opened for this matter too and it is even linked in my post. So watch and enjoy to show if you don't like to contribute but don't get in my way with your rhetorics please. |
I think this particular iceberg will end up as water soon. If the wiki page develops into something I think is suitable for the wiki, I will gladly remove the nomination.
The problem is, one mans mountain is another mans mole-hill, and the masses have a habit of seeing mountains when there's really only mole-hills (this thread being an excellent case in point, I believe)
My apologies for effective use of the English language. =P
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MoonWalker
Guru
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | MoonWalker wrote: | | Can't tell though if this is a symptom of "computer automation stupidity" or of what's going... ala "stupid user get back in line and shut up in your sandbox". |
As someone who volunteers their time to try to keep the wiki tidy, I placed the deletion nomination because the wiki is for documentation, not community discussion. That purpose is served much better by the forums. |
No you suppressed a user initiative to document the current situation. I appreiate your voluntering in assisting the Gentoo project, but it doesn't give you the right to act soley on your own opinion. If you were a wiki admin, I could have respected it - but you are not!
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AllenJB
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1282
Location: Ashford, Kent
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| MoonWalker wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: | | MoonWalker wrote: | | Can't tell though if this is a symptom of "computer automation stupidity" or of what's going... ala "stupid user get back in line and shut up in your sandbox". |
As someone who volunteers their time to try to keep the wiki tidy, I placed the deletion nomination because the wiki is for documentation, not community discussion. That purpose is served much better by the forums. |
No you suppressed a user initiative to document the current situation. I appreiate your voluntering in assisting the Gentoo project, but it doesn't give you the right to act soley on your own opinion. If you were a wiki admin, I could have respected it - but you are not! |
So I have to get a wiki admin title to be worthwhile? There is a reason I'm not a wiki admin - because I've never applied. I don't see a need for it. I don't wish to delete pages or ban people - the current admins seem to do a good enough job with that. When I have been in positions of power with regards to moderation, I have been accused of being too quick to silence people, therefore in this case I have decided I don't need that power.
There is absolutely nothing to stop you developing an article that has been nominated for deletion - in fact it is generally encouraged. As I said earlier, if I believe the article becomes suitable for the wiki, I will gladly retract the nomination.
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MoonWalker
Guru
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| tulcod wrote: | | MoonWalker wrote: | [...]
Can't tell though if this is a symptom of "computer automation stupidity" or of what's going... ala "stupid user get back in line and shut up in your sandbox". |
Now, this is yet another _stupid_ whine. A wiki is for information, not for spreading your complaints. a forum is for discussion, a wiki uses talk pages for discussion of certain articles, because those discussions are per article instead of per project. don't use a wiki for complaints of a totally different project.
edit: argh, allenJB beat me :p |
No this was not about the complaining, or whining, this was about collecting and document the gentoo problems in a structured way. It may not have been the "best" way to do it but the reaction to it is what really is stupid.
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MoonWalker
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Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| AllenJB wrote: | | MoonWalker wrote: | | AllenJB wrote: | | MoonWalker wrote: | | Can't tell though if this is a symptom of "computer automation stupidity" or of what's going... ala "stupid user get back in line and shut up in your sandbox". |
As someone who volunteers their time to try to keep the wiki tidy, I placed the deletion nomination because the wiki is for documentation, not community discussion. That purpose is served much better by the forums. |
No you suppressed a user initiative to document the current situation. I appreiate your voluntering in assisting the Gentoo project, but it doesn't give you the right to act soley on your own opinion. If you were a wiki admin, I could have respected it - but you are not! |
So I have to get a wiki admin title to be worthwhile? There is a reason I'm not a wiki admin - because I've never applied. I don't see a need for it. I don't wish to delete pages or ban people - the current admins seem to do a good enough job with that. When I have been in positions of power with regards to moderation, I have been accused of being too quick to silence people, therefore in this case I have decided I don't need that power.
There is absolutely nothing to stop you developing an article that has been nominated for deletion - in fact it is generally encouraged. As I said earlier, if I believe the article becomes suitable for the wiki, I will gladly retract the nomination. |
You don't have to tell us, you have already shown your nature by your actions.
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think4urs11
Administrator
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 6657
Location: above the cloud
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: let us do some thing usefull |
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| MoonWalker wrote: | | It may not have been the "best" way to do it but the reaction to it is what really is stupid. |
Watch your wording please - no need to get personal here.
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gerard82
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
I would really be sad (utter despair) if Gentoo would vanish!
There is no other Linux distro that comes close.
I sincerely hope all the problems can be solved.
At 80 I am not capable of contributing software so doing any
dev work is out of the question.
Please whoever is responsible:Don't let Gentoo die!!
Gerard.
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