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gringo
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would say then you are trying to build stage 3.5 then not a stage4, but anway...


there hasn´t been much interest so i just uploaded some big ones, but much more could be done of course.

cheers
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gringo wrote:
@Aniruddha : let me know if you need some more buildboxes, i have access to several x86(_64), ppc(32) and arm machines.
And just in case anyone here is interested, i´m already providing some G4 binaries ;)

cheers


Kewl :). We really should try to bundle our efforts (e.g. trough resurrection of the seeds project).

rmh3093 wrote:

I would like to see live stage3.5/4's generated nightly (and alternate package managers and init system) would be awesom to have in a stage file :D

What would be the best way to manage multiple stage 4's? I was thinking of a chroot environment with each with a different Gentoo install that I update and tar with each Gentoo release. For a nightly snapshot I think we need a better infrastructure.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:

Quote:

Make sure you get palidus and einit in those stage4's :)

Personally I prefer to stay as close as $upstream (stage3) as possible. the stag 4 I have in mind should be minimally modified with all additions documented.


There are enough ricer stages around, we don't need another. I share the Aniruddha's vision of the project. It could be good to have a precompiled stage4 that can be used to install a traditional, non-ricer gentoo. If you want fancy things like that, search around, there are lots of similar things, starting with Sabayon, which I think also provides binary packages.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i92guboj wrote:

There are enough ricer stages around, we don't need another. I share the Aniruddha's vision of the project. It could be good to have a precompiled stage4 that can be used to install a traditional, non-ricer gentoo. If you want fancy things like that, search around, there are lots of similar things, starting with Sabayon, which I think also provides binary packages.


Coming to think of it I will also leave the KDE stage 4 at it's default settings (meaning no fancy themes or pref configured settings).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i92guboj wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:

Quote:

Make sure you get palidus and einit in those stage4's :)

Personally I prefer to stay as close as $upstream (stage3) as possible. the stag 4 I have in mind should be minimally modified with all additions documented.


There are enough ricer stages around, we don't need another. I share the Aniruddha's vision of the project. It could be good to have a precompiled stage4 that can be used to install a traditional, non-ricer gentoo. If you want fancy things like that, search around, there are lots of similar things, starting with Sabayon, which I think also provides binary packages.

+1

Also I especially like the "documented" bit :). As a former Sabayon user I know how annoying it could be to know nothing about what customizations were done for me.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
make.conf
Code:
USE="3dnow
*snip*

3dnow for Intel CPUs? I think it could break some things.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

lazy_bum wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
make.conf
Code:
USE="3dnow
*snip*

3dnow for Intel CPUs? I think it could break some things.


Thanks for letting me know! 3dnowext should also be removed I assume?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have posted the make.conf I intend to use. Please take a look at it and let me know how we can improve it.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
lazy_bum wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
make.conf
Code:
USE="3dnow
*snip*

3dnow for Intel CPUs? I think it could break some things.


Thanks for letting me know! 3dnowext should also be removed I assume?

Yes. If You want it to be portable to *any* computer You should also remove sse/sse2 flags. Older CPU don't support this.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

lazy_bum wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
lazy_bum wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
make.conf
Code:
USE="3dnow
*snip*

3dnow for Intel CPUs? I think it could break some things.


Thanks for letting me know! 3dnowext should also be removed I assume?

Yes. If You want it to be portable to *any* computer You should also remove sse/sse2 flags. Older CPU don't support this.


If you really want it to be portable, down to i686 (well, and pentium classic with mmx), you should just keep mmx and forget about the rest. If you are going to base your stage in an i686 arch, as you said above, mmx is perfectly safe to use, the rest are not.

For x86_64, it is safe to include sse as well, since that is the default fpu unit that the compiler will use anyway, as far as I know.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great thread and I was always sorry to see the seeds project go nowhere. Seeds had a great vision, it just went nowhere.
I would love to help out where I can also.
As for your USE flags, I see quite a few (besides the ones already mentioned) that I don't believe should be in there. But, I think you first need to define the type of user the stage (seed?) is geared towards. If you are looking to create something for the typical desktop user (aka. not a programmer), I would say remove: apache dedicated firebird mysql oracle oracle7 php postgress query-browser
Some others should be removed also, depending on the desktop you plan to install.

Did you ever find out who to talk to, to resurrect the seeds project?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

i92guboj wrote:
If you really want it to be portable, down to i686 (well, and pentium classic with mmx), you should just keep mmx and forget about the rest. If you are going to base your stage in an i686 arch, as you said above, mmx is perfectly safe to use, the rest are not.

What do you mean with the rest? :roll:

ryker wrote:
This is a great thread and I was always sorry to see the seeds project go nowhere. Seeds had a great vision, it just went nowhere.
I would love to help out where I can also.
As for your USE flags, I see quite a few (besides the ones already mentioned) that I don't believe should be in there. But, I think you first need to define the type of user the stage (seed?) is geared towards. If you are looking to create something for the typical desktop user (aka. not a programmer), I would say remove: apache dedicated firebird mysql oracle oracle7 php postgress query-browser
Some others should be removed also, depending on the desktop you plan to install.

Did you ever find out who to talk to, to resurrect the seeds project?


Good point, I will make an different make.conf for each stage 4:
Code:
-Basic system (without X)
-Basic system with X
-Desktop (with KDE)

I haven't talked to anyone from the seeds project yet.



@At everyone
I really could use some help with cleaning the USEflag section. Please let me know which USEflags needs to removed and why.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
@At everyone
I really could use some help with cleaning the USEflag section. Please let me know which USEflags needs to removed and why.
For the systems with X and KDE, it would be best to use the desktop subprofile. Therefore remove the USE flags in make.conf that are already specified in the profile.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

mark_alec wrote:
For the systems with X and KDE, it would be best to use the desktop subprofile. Therefore remove the USE flags in make.conf that are already specified in the profile.

Thanks I'll look at the desktop profile and clean out the make.conf tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:29 am    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:
i92guboj wrote:
If you really want it to be portable, down to i686 (well, and pentium classic with mmx), you should just keep mmx and forget about the rest. If you are going to base your stage in an i686 arch, as you said above, mmx is perfectly safe to use, the rest are not.

What do you mean with the rest? :roll:


Any arch-specific use flag. 3dnow, 3dnowext, sse, sse2 and sse3... I don't know if they even exist. But read below, there is really now need to worry that much. I'll explain further.

Quote:

@At everyone
I really could use some help with cleaning the USEflag section. Please let me know which USEflags needs to removed and why.


Really, there is not a reason to worry that much about use flags. Just don't add the ones you are not going to use. If you pick the regular x86 profile, and you use and i686 stage3 as starting point, everything will be set to a safe default to run ok on ANY i686 machine. So, if you don't add a flag, it is not there.

This is why you don't need to worry about arch-specific flags. You just add USE="mmx", which will be safe for any i686 box, and forget about the rest. For the rest, I would just leave the default flags. And for the kde stage, I would use the desktop profile, as someone already said above. I would use the regular profile for the X profile without desktop, though. It doesn't make much sense to pull some heavy deps accidentally in case any package wants them, if you are not going to use them for a desktop.

That way, it is easier to use this as a starting point. I wouldn't change any use flag from the default state if I want to stick to an standard gentoo install on this. I would not change a single one unless:

1.- it is completely safe and has no side effects (e.g.: mmx)
2.- it is needed for a true reason (i can't think of any)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with i92guboj, except that the basic system with X, you might want to add some -use flags in there. Such as -kde -gnome. i'm pretty sure those are part of the standard profile.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

i92guboj wrote:
Really, there is not a reason to worry that much about use flags. Just don't add the ones you are not going to use. If you pick the regular x86 profile, and you use and i686 stage3 as starting point, everything will be set to a safe default to run ok on ANY i686 machine. So, if you don't add a flag, it is not there.

This is why you don't need to worry about arch-specific flags. You just add USE="mmx", which will be safe for any i686 box, and forget about the rest. For the rest, I would just leave the default flags. And for the kde stage, I would use the desktop profile, as someone already said above. I would use the regular profile for the X profile without desktop, though. It doesn't make much sense to pull some heavy deps accidentally in case any package wants them, if you are not going to use them for a desktop.

That way, it is easier to use this as a starting point. I wouldn't change any use flag from the default state if I want to stick to an standard gentoo install on this. I would not change a single one unless:

1.- it is completely safe and has no side effects (e.g.: mmx)
2.- it is needed for a true reason (i can't think of any)


Your right. I guess I was thinking to far ahead (about the binhost), but that is another discussion and probably another thread. For the stage 4's I will set the profile for each stage but won't supply additional USEflags in the make,conf. This will make the stage4 a little bit more 'vanilla'. Now the question is which profile to set for each stage 4. I was thinking of the following setup:

Code:
-Basic system (without X)     -    Default profile
-Basic system with X                     -    Desktop profile (ryker would this suffice?)
-Desktop (with KDE)                      -   Desktop profile


Edit:
What about INPUT_DEVICES and VIDEO_CARDS? Are these setting correct?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the -Basic system with X, again who is your intended audience? What window manager is going to be installed? XFCE? fluxbox?

I think the, since you won't be installing KDE or Gnome with this stage4, using the Desktop Profile pulls in too much.

Here's what the 2007.0 Desktop Profile pulls in for use flags:
Code:
USE="acpi alsa arts cairo cdr dbus dvd dvdr dvdread eds emboss encode esd evo fam firefox gif gnome gpm gstreamer gtk hal jpeg kde kerberos ldap mad mikmod mp3 mpeg ogg opengl oss pdf png qt3 qt3support qt4 quicktime sdl spell svg tiff truetype vorbis win32codecs unicode X xml xv"


Most of those use flags look ok for users not wanting KDE or Gnome. If you do use the Desktop Profile, maybe add:
Code:
USE="-cairo -gnome -gstreamer -gtk -kde -qt3 -qt3support -qt4"


or just use the standard profile and add the relevant USE flags.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

Aniruddha wrote:

What about INPUT_DEVICES and VIDEO_CARDS? Are these setting correct?


The same. If they are not set, portage will just compile every driver under the sun. I am not sure about propietary ones (nvidia, ati...), and those might be an issue since I don't think you are allowed to redistribute them in any other form than the original package.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Announcing the 'Stage 4 project' Reply with quote

i92guboj wrote:
I am not sure about propietary ones (nvidia, ati...), and those might be an issue since I don't think you are allowed to redistribute them in any other form than the original package.
Reminds me, you should set USE="bindist" for this exact reason so that you don't build packages that are illegal to distribute.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you haven't already, you should read the gentoo-dev thread about the Seeds project.

I haven't had time to read the whole thing yet, but there are some good ideas in there and a LOT of heated debate. Definitely something to read thoroughly before thinking about resurrecting the Seeds project.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryker wrote:
If you haven't already, you should read the gentoo-dev thread about the Seeds project.

After reading some of that thread I got an impression that the scope of the 'seeds' project is broader than the scope of this stage 4 project:
Quote:
Tarballs, VMware images, vserver images, Xen images, and CDs are what
we'll eventually deliver, sure. Before then, we'll be putting
together packages and (we expect) profiles too. It's likely that
we'll also support folks who want to install seeds from source (ie,
from a generic stage3 install) as well as folks who want to seed
directly from a stage4 tarball or equivalent.

(http://marc.info/?l=gentoo-dev&m=115876537702389&w=2)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you are right, but right now the seeds project has NO scope. ;) It can become whatever we/you/everyone makes of it.
I was very sad to see the seeds project go nowhere. I think it was/is a great idea. Maybe some of the folks here can help resurrect it.
Aniruddha's ideas can be the beginnings of something that others can help with. Hopefully others interested in a LAMP, VServer, etc seed can join and contribute to that.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryker wrote:
If you haven't already, you should read the gentoo-dev thread about the Seeds project.

I haven't had time to read the whole thing yet, but there are some good ideas in there and a LOT of heated debate. Definitely something to read thoroughly before thinking about resurrecting the Seeds project.


Thanks! That is a very good link :D. After looking on Stuart Herbert's blog I think it's safe to say the seeds project is dead:
Quote:

Stuart was a Gentoo developer from mid-2003 to November 2006, where he lead the work to improve Gentoo as a web server platform.


I will contact him to find out more about the seeds project.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. I guess he's still working on the LAMP seed. It was a Google SOC project.
http://code.google.com/p/seed-linux/wiki/SeedsLampServer

Last updated on May 20th and he uses Gentoo 2007.0.

This raises good possibilities of resurrecting the seeds project.
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