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syadnom
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:00 pm    Post subject: a database file system?? Reply with quote

is their any way to mount a database as a filesystem??

id like to make an mp3 database to catalog and store my mp3 collection and hopefull optimize the space they take up, SQL is what im looking at right now but i wont do this if i cant access the database as if it were a filesystem.

id like to be able to do fast(VERY) searches by a variety of criteria such as album/title/artist/genre etc..... and a database seems to be the only answer....

any thoughts??
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not being a database person, I was anticipating pulling ID3 tag info from files into a dB.
Then using the dB for searches and "playing" them (the db would contain file location info).
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syadnom
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

im also interested in that, with the id3 tags but it would be nice to be able to back up my entire mp3 collection with just one file or the ability to mirror my collection accross the local 802.11b.........

i just read the "introduction and philosophy of reasierfs"

Reiser says that if you have to use any kind of layer on top of the file system to accomplish what you need done, then your files system is letting you down and it should be fixed....

i think thats reasonable thinking and im wondering why it hasnt been done yet? you know the ability to database id3 tags and metadata and whatever into the file system itself and have a file system index next to the journal.
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schutten
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second that, I'm also interested.

Also I'd like to setup a similar system for the photo's from my digital camera. This is basically a similar problem. A jpeg image with a set of information describing the image (date, location, description).

I soon as I have my "to be server" PC setup (with raid0 disks, I don't want to loose this data), I'll set this up (both for MP3 & photo's).

Options I am playing with:
- One integrated system, or two...
- One database, or database with tags + separate files (like the previous post suggests), or a "file system" that supports this (I'll look into this ReiserFS thing).

Will be a few weeks from now when I want to start, so first some thinking to do...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schutten wrote:
I second that, I'm also interested.

Also I'd like to setup a similar system for the photo's from my digital camera. This is basically a similar problem. A jpeg image with a set of information describing the image (date, location, description).

I soon as I have my "to be server" PC setup (with raid0 disks, I don't want to loose this data), I'll set this up (both for MP3 & photo's).

Options I am playing with:
- One integrated system, or two...
- One database, or database with tags + separate files (like the previous post suggests), or a "file system" that supports this (I'll look into this ReiserFS thing).

Will be a few weeks from now when I want to start, so first some thinking to do...


Well, php can read the picture ( mp3 too? ) and store in in mysql server as data and ofcourse u can add more fields like date, location and more...
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Houdini
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oracle is really interested in that, as is Microsoft. Rumor is, soon Windows will be all SQL based. What fun that will be...

Anyway, why do you need a database filesystem? MP3 databases exist, and the db would be one file you could back up.

/me shrugs

I'm not one to stop a random idea though, so good luck :)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad I got out when I did ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a database as a filesystem, .. wouldn't that make it enormously ? and thereby very low performance in searching & hard to backup ?

A database with all the mp3 info & the info where to find it on your harddriver, would seem much easier. Maybe you could write a frontend for it ... somth where you can search for an artist / album and immediateley play the song(s).. shouldn't be very difficult ... You can write some scripts to verify wheter mp3s have gone missing etc ...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is intersting for me to see that.. i have been thinking about writing the same thing. the only problme is that i would have to learn alot more than i know right now.

i mean i dont know that much about SQL or anything that i could acess with.. but from what i hear MySQL is fairly easy to administer and SQL as a language is not difficult to use. or maybe i will use Python and write a web front end for the db.

anyway, i guess quite a few people have the same ideas.. :)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you guys might want to look at netjuke ([url]netjuke.sourceforge.net[/url]).

It scanns the ID3 tags of mp3s, puts the info in a db (mysql or postgres), and allows you to search, make playlists, etc. The interface is web-based, and it plays your mp3s over the web too. The best way to describe it is that it is a xmms/winamp/itunes app that exists only on the web.

What it has allowed me do is listen to all my mp3s, where-ever I am. I have one server with my music and netjuke running on it, and if I have a internet connection I can listen to the music.

- Chris[/url]
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:53 am    Post subject: database Reply with quote

most mp3 or picture databases i have seen do not have network functionallity, i dont want to be stuck with a program on a certain platform. i dont want an mp3 database that is only usable with the program that administers the database unless it is network transparent, as in i can mount the database as a file system and use it over my network. and no im not interested in a web based system. i have never been satisfied with a web based anything that is not the web itself.

here are my needs:
1) must be mountable as a file system, or have an interface that is able to be used accross a network.
2) must search for file info quickly
3) doesn't really have to be fast at reading files, mp3s and pictures dont requier a lot of speed to play reliably...
4) be open source. period, no proprietary software....i run NO proprietary software except my NVdriver....
5) be flexible...open to improvement...usable
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:38 am    Post subject: my $.02 Reply with quote

syadnom wrote:

Reiser says that if you have to use any kind of layer on top of the file system to accomplish what you need done, then your files system is letting you down and it should be fixed....

i think thats reasonable thinking and im wondering why it hasnt been done yet? you know the ability to database id3 tags and metadata and whatever into the file system itself and have a file system index next to the journal.


i absolutly has been done before... ever hear of the late great Be, Inc. and their BeOS using the BFS file system? if you wnat fast and database its the way to go. You can tell it to use id3 tags or invent your own attributes. I remmber searching for all files on my main partition that contained "be" and fidning ALL of them within 10 seconds on a pii-250 64mb. i could play 4 mp3's and 2 avi's on that system and barely notice a loss of frame rate, no kidding. and it had no hourglass mouse cursor cuz programs open that fast (grated they are small and dontt use (i.e) java).
gentoo is just about as snappy now but i have 4 X the mhz and ram :)
see www.openbeos.org for a more supported version (and yes linux can now read bfs partitions)

if you dont want to get away from the linux kernel, see www.blueeyedos.com, which will use xfree, or www.cosmoe.org (which does not, but uses an interesting atheos/beos/macos api), but i'm not sure if they plan on implementing the bfs with live queries and all the bells and whistles. Cosmoe is the reason i installed Gentoo to begin with, but it is still very alpha and i'm not ready for it.

i'm, not "dissing on linux" (anymore :). ever since i got rid of mandrake and started on gentoo i now have a supported os to use 99%+ of the time that actually runs and runs well, and that i can enjoy using (there i said it :) (alot)

see also www.BEUnited.org for more info on the post-Be, Inc. BeOS community.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Houdini wrote:
Oracle is really interested in that, as is Microsoft. Rumor is, soon Windows will be all SQL based. What fun that will be...

Gee, I wonder why Oracle is interested in it ;)

I know Microsoft has been trying to integrate it into their next 3 or so releases of Windows. It's one of their wierd codenames I can't remember, but it'll be using the MS-SQL engine.
Sick thought.... a database backend controlled by someone else.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

syadnom wrote:

i just read the "introduction and philosophy of reasierfs"

Reiser says that if you have to use any kind of layer on top of the file system to accomplish what you need done, then your files system is letting you down and it should be fixed....

i think thats reasonable thinking and im wondering why it hasnt been done yet? you know the ability to database id3 tags and metadata and whatever into the file system itself and have a file system index next to the journal.


interestingly enough, windows explorer will allow you to do this...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious as to why if BeOS was so good (not saying it wasn't), why did the project die ?

I've heard upper-management decisions caused the demise but this seems unlikely, it would seem more that enough copys weren't purchased and funding was deemed inappropriate?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

um...not sure where the hell this thread should go. It's all over the board. :) I didn't see anything gentoo-specific in it, so off to General Linux it goes. (the other choice is OTW, which is where it's going if you guys continue along the BeOS thread... :))

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:39 pm    Post subject: death of BeOS Reply with quote

Autobot,
at one time BeOS was going to be shipped stock with Dell's but Microsoft strongarmed that deal away. It is evidence in the DOJ's and Be Inc.s suits against Microsoft (unless they have been class actioned into one now).

Look at Netscape's usage decline since Explorer became stock in win9x. Something like 1-3%. How much of the end user desktop does linux have? People like you and me and others on this forum are very unlike the average pc/mac consumer. I'm not taking anything away from netscape, beos, or linux, but 99.5% of the population will not install a new browser, much less a new os, because they are scared. If what shipped with the computer works they dont want to learn, much less break anything else, to see if something else works better, and in all likelyhood, if there is a driver for their hardware. The truth is windows works just fine for the web and e-mail; what most people care about.

And since everything in their world is and has been microsoft, they dont even know what better is until redmond tells them. When my buddies see my computer used they ask why my background changes when windows diappear. I proceed to explain that i have more than one desktop.

I could go on. It is possible to boot to beos from windows98se and earlier, by clicking on an icon. Post-win98 that was "broken." BeOS boots in 5-10 seconds on an average PC of a year ago. The consumer would never see that using a boot disk, and so would have to know to install it, make his own partition, reinstall it from within beos (a completely new os), and delete the original instance from control panel in windows or it will automount all bfs partitions on boot (even if they are images within another fs, it works fine but may be confusing for a beginner).

It is just really difficult for a commercial desktop os to survive with the situation being the way it is. It doesnt help that marketing was word-of-mouth at best (mast people have never heard of BeOS), and the IA market that Be Inc. gambled on cost them the house. They actually turned their first profit the year before the infamous focus shift to BeIA.

It's not dead though, slowed yes, dead no. There are at least 4 promising open sourece projects, some partially based on beos, some promising binary compatibility; most are in alpha, one (cosmoe) was released 2 weeks ago, and is at developer's v.52.

On my gentoo box, i can tell that from 2.0 to 3.0 kde went out and addressed the BeOS refugee market. I could name at least 6 features that make kde 3.0 behave more similarly to BeOS (and better in most instances), but this has gone on long enough :)

so yes enought copies were not sold (to support a small corporation) and funding was deemed inappropriate (or too dangerous (see: microsoft)), but history has shown: product superiority does not a success make. If that were the case we'd be recording onto betamax film from 3rd party cableboxes running embedded linux (or even less likely grandma would use gentoo :)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber was right. I see Database filesystems as the emeny after hearing what M$ was planning... and; this thread seems a little OT with all the BeOS talk!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep sorry for asking such a question, I usually stick with the subject but I was just too curious and knew it would get answered by an un-biased person.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arkane wrote:
Houdini wrote:
Oracle is really interested in that, as is Microsoft. Rumor is, soon Windows will be all SQL based. What fun that will be...

Gee, I wonder why Oracle is interested in it ;)


Actually Oracle already had it working, they showed it at some convention ~2 years ago (if I remeber correctly, around the time of 8i).
It was a network file system, running on a remote oracle server.

They probably couldn't push down everyones throats (Oh, I forgot to tell you, you need a DBA to run your network file system :roll:), as I haven't heared about it since.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:40 am    Post subject: attempt to pull thread back to topic.... Reply with quote

ok, im not interested in BeOS right at this moment, its great but im on the B.E.OS and OpenBEOS forums so ill go their to talk be.

so what im interested in is getting the right file system setup for my gentoo system. people have had some different ideas on which is fastest and which is most stable in gentoo.

no please continue with semi-on-topic replys :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ill stay on topic.

static wrote:
klieber was right. I see Database filesystems as the emeny after hearing what M$ was planning... and; this thread seems a little OT with all the BeOS talk!


static, why is it necessarily the enemy? that reiser guy seems to be all about it. I heard that MS was going to use a db filesystem, but my only problem with it is that they claimed to be the first to do so. Prhaps i'm misunderstanding what you mean.

sorry for straying earlier. i type quickly and be for i know it my contribution resembles an essay more than a post :)
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syadnom
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:25 am    Post subject: ?? Reply with quote

why would database filesystems be the enemy? bacause M$ is planning on using one?? i dont understand this? just because M$ is planning on going with some sort of a database, that doesnt mean us gentoo guys should blow it off. i want to improve functionallity and performance of my file system for my gentoo install, that simple, just cause m$ want to improve windows should i say screw it?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:27 pm    Post subject: Micro$oft always lies Reply with quote

They also said they created id3 attributes for mp3, but I use them for more than 2 years on beos.
Micro$oft steal technologies
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK folks -- I think this conversation has ranged sufficiently OT to warrant a lock. Never mind the libel...

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