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swimmer
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Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 1138
Location: Netherlands
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 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:43 am Post subject: |
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@jlh: Very nice spoken!!! Exactly my thoughts 
Greetz
swimmer |
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leonglass
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Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 278
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| jlh wrote: | | I had only very small problems with that expat upgrade. Yes, I had to recompile like 30 packages, but only two of them didn't 'just work'; one problem solved itself by retrying later and the other had a trivial fix. If this type of babysitting (which - at least for me in this case - is not even very time-consuming) is already too much for you, you might want to use a distro that hides these things from the user. I don't know many other distros, but I'm sure at least some are easier on the user with those issues. For me, using gentoo really means to be a bit more low-level than other distros, which adds a great deal of flexibility and configurability, but - and that's the price you pay - you have to invested more time and do some babysitting when major upgrades happen. Just my two cents of course, you may disagree. |
I just upgraded my system and had to spend some time with revdep-rebuild. I was getting some errors libexpat not found. revdep would fail and then I would start it again with --skip-first and eventually everything went through. Took me about half a day but this is time I don't mind spending as most of the time my updates go without a hitch. |
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Atle
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: |
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I spent a lot of time on this problem. More than 200 kde pages needed to be rebuilt with revdep-rebuild. And they all failed rebuilding because the rebuild required the older version of libexpat.
I ended up having to downgrade libexpat. Make a copy of the older libraries. Upgrade expat again. And copy back in the older the library files.
Now I was able to upgrade my system. (Did a full emerge -e world, just to make sure everything was up to date)
After this I removed the old libraries. And just to make sure everything is still all right, I'm doing a full emerge -e world once more. I'm only on 50 out of 893 packages, but it seems there are no problems.
(I only have a problem with bioapi, but that seems unrelated) |
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xcable
Guru
Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Posts: 424
Location: College Station, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Wow! Atle, are you running a stable arch?
--
heath |
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Atle
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: |
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Yes.
The problem was that every kde package called kde-config during autoconf, and kde-config failed on not having libexpat. Kdelibs did not fail on this, but required libexpat to compile.
So in order to compile for the new version of libexpat, I needed the older version. |
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spamspam
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Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| It should have been marked blocked on <expat-2.0.0 to avoid unplanned downtime and nasty surprises. Someone really dropped the ball on this one. |
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drescherjm
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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In the past when other libs were updated and guaranteed to break your system I have seen the ebuild leave the old lib installed and give you instructions how to use revdep-rebuild to get rid of the old version. Maybe this was not possible in this case but to me it is much better than what happened.
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My gentoo overlay
Instructons for overlay |
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tsuehpsyde
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| All I can say is, I'm glad I'm on the ~x86 branch. Already had this problem and solved it a while ago. Although I will agree that it was a might PITA when I had to solve it. However, revdep-rebuild did the trick for me. I just had to use the symlink while rebuilding so things worked, then removed the symlink afterwards. The band-aid kept things going smoothly while I proceeded to rebuild what needed rebuilt. Just my $.02. |
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turtles
l33t
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 739
Location: (44.057116, -123.103394)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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For those whom are interested a bug has been filed as to the procedural problem of an ebuild post install warning not giving the user the choice that Gentoo should offer. In this case the choice is to have a broken system now or later. Please leave your comments and suggestions.
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roderick
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
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Location: St. John's, NL CANADA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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I wish --as-needed was a 100% supported and recommended option for everone.
For me, I had zero (yes zero) problems, as I had --as-needed in my LDFLAGS for all my KDE packages. I never set it up system wide, as I heard it wasn't supported well across the entire package set, but KDE did support it well enough.
If you had --as-needed in use flags, libexpat wouldn't have been unnecessarily linked in 100's of packages where it wasn't even referenced. Therefore, none of these weird rebuild issues.
Oh well... maybe we can move to further helping get --as-needed support where it needs to be (like perhaps putting it in the ebuilds for all KDE packages where it is known to work well so the users don't have to worry about it.
That may be an option...
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xcable
Guru
Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Posts: 424
Location: College Station, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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What is "--as-needed" do? I have never heard of it.
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heath |
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mno
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Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 245
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Neither have I, but my guess it that it forces linking to libraries only if they libraries are really needed/used within the package, and not only used for some minor/less minor enhancements.
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Arfrever
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Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 2359
Location: Polska / Lenkija
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jonnevers
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Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1542
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| xcable wrote: | Re-emerging Gimp, because expat broke it....
FING RIDICULOUS!!!! I've been a Gentoo user for over 5 years now, but Ubuntu is looking better and better every day. |
oh stop, don't make idle threats.
BUT
here is what I needed to do to get going with expat-2.0.1
| Code: | emerge -av expat (got up to 2.0.1)
emerge -1 gettext
emerge -1 fontconfig
emerge -1 pango
emerge -1 gtk+
revdep-rebuild -X -av
revdep-rebuild -av
emerge --sync
emerge -uNDav world
emerge -av --depclean
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the last three lines are really just verification everything was updated right.
if you have the xeffect overlay in your PORTDIR_OVERLAY variable make sure it's at the most current revision, layman -s xeffect.
I had some issues with a couple KDE apps (i think xeffects related at that time, was before they updated their overlay for the new expat) and I unmerged digikam + a --depclean then did the steps above. Then brought digikam back on. |
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spamspam
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Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| jonnevers wrote: | | xcable wrote: | Re-emerging Gimp, because expat broke it....
FING RIDICULOUS!!!! I've been a Gentoo user for over 5 years now, but Ubuntu is looking better and better every day. |
oh stop, don't make idle threats.
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I just thought you'd all like to know, if you use kde and switch to Kubuntu you have to copy ~/.kde3.5/share/config/kmailrc to ~/.kde/share/config/kmailrc to get your email accounts set up in kmail.
Also the monitor database doesn't properly set the physical dimensions of the monitor; you may have to add a DisplaySize line to the "Monitor" section of /etc/X11/Xorg.conf .
The biggest drawback to switching was the time to tarball my home directory; it goes much faster if you don't bother with compression. |
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Captain Newbie
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Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 173
Location: Socal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| mno wrote: | | The proper way to fix all these dependencies is through revdep-rebuild... it is not a sweet solution, but it does fix the issues. Regardless, the only way to "fix" will be to re-build all packages that lookfor the .so.0 file. |
For me, it turned out that was almost every package on the system: Which was not a big deal, as it's not like I do anything important. (But this path leads to madness...just my unlucky day.)
You know, I tried the new Ubuntu, and five minutes into it I said, "Ah the hell with it." I remain a gentoo user. Even with chasing an uncooperative library Gentoo still knocks Ubuntu's socks off.
Concur with this statement, however: "Non-hackish support of --as-needed" would be a very, very, very nice thing to have.
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jonnevers
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Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1542
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| spamspam wrote: | | I just thought you'd all like to know, if you use kde and switch to Kubuntu |
why would anyone do that? I mean, whatever floats your boat but who cares.
now the real question is witch takes less time:
1) switching from gentoo to kubuntu
2) sticking with gentoo but switch from KDE to gnome
3) something inflammatory and ad hominem |
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tld
Guru
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 491
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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People tend to forget that, under many binary distributions, major library upgrades that would break binary compatibility often require a major version upgrade of the entire distribution...upgrades that are often so undependable that a reinstall is your best bet. I have no experience with Ubuntu and have no idea if it's more friendly than that.
I'll take this sort of thing any day.
Tom |
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baeksu
Guru
Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 583
Location: Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | People tend to forget that, under many binary distributions, major library upgrades that would break binary compatibility often require a major version upgrade of the entire distribution...upgrades that are often so undependable that a reinstall is your best bet. I have no experience with Ubuntu and have no idea if it's more friendly than that.
I'll take this sort of thing any day.
Tom |
My thoughts exactly.
The problem is that even though the packages in the binary repository might be updated to a newer expat, what happens to all those .debs or .rpms that you installed manually? They'll all be broken.
At least in Gentoo we can fix all the packages with revdep-rebuild, as long as we used an ebuild in a local overlay to install those packages that are not in portage.
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spamspam
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Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | People tend to forget that, under many binary distributions, major library upgrades that would break binary compatibility often require a major version upgrade of the entire distribution...upgrades that are often so undependable that a reinstall is your best bet. I have no experience with Ubuntu and have no idea if it's more friendly than that.
I'll take this sort of thing any day.
Tom |
This is where we differ. I'd choose a planned upgrade over 5 days of unexpected downtime. |
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spamspam
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Joined: 05 Dec 2003
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnevers wrote: |
now the real question is witch takes less time:
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1) switching from gentoo to kubuntu
It took about 2 hours to backup my home dir and about 30 minutes to install Kubuntu. |
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xcable
Guru
Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Posts: 424
Location: College Station, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Let's keep on the original subject.
thanks,
heath |
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jonnevers
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Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 1542
Location: Gentoo64 land
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| xcable wrote: | Let's keep on the original subject.
thanks,
heath |
why? the original subject is bunk. maybe a week or so ago it matter but now it's just whining and hot air.
BUT if we must stay on topic, I continue to contend that expat-2 should not have been released along side KDE 3.5.7. Yes this would have meant recompiling more packages but it would have minimized package inconsistencies.
other then that I don't care, my x86 server had like 4 packages to update none of which were an issue.
KDE is what hurt my amd64 machine... and i run gnome, it's those KDE libraries mixed with a non-updated xeffects made for some summer fun.
but thats not really gentoo's problem necessarily.
to the people install kubuntu, all i can say is "  have fun and thanks for all the fish " |
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roderick
l33t
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 908
Location: St. John's, NL CANADA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnevers wrote: |
KDE is what hurt my amd64 machine... and i run gnome, it's those KDE libraries mixed with a non-updated xeffects made for some summer fun.
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And if you read the boards you would have seen a post to hold off updatating (I posted it) as the xeffects server was down and I couldn't update the packages
Once the server was up, packages were immediately fixed and updated.
Oh, and even so, the only changes were the fact that the KEYWORDS changed, and anyone running th eoverlay would have had ~x86 in their KEYWORDS, so it "technically" wouldn't have mattered unless you removed the ~x86 from your package.keywords in anticipation of the KDE update. An if you were anticipating it, and know enough to use an overlay like xeffects, then surely you know enough to keep a watchful eye on what packages are being updated and to verify the updates make sense first. 
But I digress
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mv
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Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| spamspam wrote: | | I'd choose a planned upgrade over 5 days of unexpected downtime. |
Me, too. Since I could not afford some downtime at that moment, I had downgraded expat again until I have the time. So what?
It has taken about 5 minutes to find out and downgrade. So, yes, I had 5 minutes unexpected downtime, but this risk you always have when you upgrade something.
It took me certainly less time than you claim you needed to install ubuntu. And of course, here you do not count the weeks that you will need to twinkle all details of the distribution to your needs. Not to speak about a similar amount of time when you will have the next major ubuntu upgrade. And the next. And the next... 
(Of course, this problem of needing more time than gentoo is not a particular problem of ubuntu. It is the same for all binary distributions, by design). |
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