Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
just a simple "why"
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Monkeh
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 1656
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're using a broken installer, expecting things to work like magic (you never installed the nvidia drivers, you expect them to work?), assuming things (the installer won't provide you any kernel sources, don't assume that it will)...

I'll not say what I'd like to due to rules, so I'll just wander off now..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PaulBredbury
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 7310

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I'm the spoilsport. See late addendum above.

Oops, nearly forgot. :wink:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nativemad
Developer
Developer


Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 816
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but when something that should be relatively painless turns into the drama i encounter time and time again all i can ask is "why?"

hm... The easiest things can be so annoying!! :!: For example: I try to find out since 3 hours why one citrix server here on windows don't want to print to one specific printer... even when it did it a few hours before! :wink:
Quote:
you see? That just proves that Gentoo is perfect! Are you sure you're not a fanboy? :wink:

Nothing is perfect! Neither ubuntu, nor windows nor gentoo or any other thing out there...
If you like the violet from the gentoo logo, you probably don't like a red Ferrari...
But also the VW in exactly this color doesn't fit your exactly needs, as you want horsepower!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 7412
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh, we, the misunderstood, lament.

- John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nativemad
Developer
Developer


Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 816
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the misunderstood, lament.

Sorry, I just wanted to point out that if gentoo is perfect for me, it doesn't automatically mean it's also perfect for you.
Maybe you like the pain in the ass with depencies and so, gentoo isn't enough for you, so porbably slakware or even LFS would be perfect! :wink:

Perhaps we should say gentoo is admin-friendly, not user-friendly in the first line. Even if we find it great as a user-workstation...

An installer makes it so easy to install that people doesn't recognize what it's all about. Choice!
Maybe the livecd with the installer should be hidden or something, so that a new user knows after an install what symlinks are, and why this makes sense with the kernerlsources and so on...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4630
Location: Theux (Belgium)

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
Hah, "relatively painless" exists in the parallel world where Claudia Schiffer is in my bedroom.


8O Are you *that* old?
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
GNU/Linux user #369763
“Wow! I feel root”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 3924

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the indiana jones of our forum strikes again ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4630
Location: Theux (Belgium)

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, note, each one has his own "relatively painless" parallel world. In mine Claudia Schiffer doesn't exist... :D
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
GNU/Linux user #369763
“Wow! I feel root”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
madchaz
l33t
l33t


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 979
Location: Quebec, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I think you have a few missconceptions.

First of all, you mentionned using the installer?

One simple thing to say to you about that, don't. The installer as been, and always will be, broken. Simply because it was abandoned. Gentoo is NOT a distribution for people who "just want to have it work out of the box". There is no "out of the box" with gentoo. Use the install guide.

You mentionned making a race car out of an old VW. That's a bad analogy. Gentoo is more like building a supercharged sport car with awesome gas milage from raw material. You build EVERYTHING yourself. In the end, what you end up with is a system that does exactly what you want, exactly how you want it and you've learned something along the way.

If you want it to "just work", go with ubuntu. It's an awesome distribution for that. But I wouldn't make a iSCSI SAN to back my 2 VM/NAS/DB server run on old hardware with ubuntu. I can do that with gentoo. Sure, it wasn't just "click and wait", but it was a very rewarding experience.
_________________
Someone asked me once if I suffered from mental illness. I told him I enjoyed every second of it.
www.madchaz.com Under heavy reconstruction. Bring a hardhat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Corona688
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 1204

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: just a simple "why" Reply with quote

TwYst wrote:
when you buy or build a computer you do so so that you can either be productive on it or play games on it, either way if we are spending all our time setting up x servers or sorting out 3d acceleration problems or any number of the other little things gentoo has the end user do instead of using a set of safe defaults that can be changed if needed to accomodate the few who the base settings wouldnt work for.
Eh. When I installed Ubuntu on my laptop, a few important things didn't work and all I got from their help channel was a resounding FU. Reformat with Gentoo and everything important works, and those that don't, either have bugs explaining why and how to fix, or people on the channel who can explain what's going on.

The ideal of gentoo seems to be a distro that doesn't depend on its own private Gentoo-only things. Install a brand-name distro and their logo's everywhere. Install Gentoo and you don't even need a Gentoo CD. There's Debian, SUSE, Redhat and Fedora packages, but no Gentoo packages, it takes the programs as they were given, from the source, and makes them work as they were written to, not as dictated by their theme coordinator or UI designer or whatever they call them these days. It gives you KDE, not some distro's canned reconfiguration of it. As such, its autoconfig is only as good as Linux's generic autoconfig capability.

Which has seen SERIOUS improvement in the last few years. Everyone's heard that before, but it's finally true: Stock Xorg can run with no config file on a lot of machines, udev can autoload the modules you need now, etc, etc. There's so many ways to cludge that but Gentoo didn't incorporate that until someone did it right. I don't know what machine you have, but Gentoo certainly detected the right resolution for mine.

Don't turn it into your own special product to fix something, just get it right in the first place. It's a bit idealistic, and doesn't always work, and IMHO helps Linux as a whole since Gentoo bugfixes aren't just Gentoo.
_________________
Petition for Better 64-bit ATI Drivers - Sign Here
http://www.petitiononline.com/atipet/petition.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
1clue
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 1215

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TwYst wrote:
i understand about the control goal in gentoo itself but would it be so hard to integrate the same control in a gui based installer... for example a tick box for minimal install with an additional tick box for installing proprietary drivers for those of us with nvidia or ati cards. then a different tick box if you prefer an advanced install where you could have the choice of how deep you want to configure your own system. things like the xserver and such should really detect and set up automatically aside from the little tweaking they may need to fine tune things


So will you also have check boxes for all build options you want for each package before you compile it?

Not long ago I asked about a possible project I would have started, a non-gui script which would simply query the current hardware and set kernel compilation options to match the hardware. Only those which are hardware related (CPU features, drivers, etc), not for extra features like TCP options and such. After my script ran, you could run "make menuconfig" or "make xconfig" to tailor the kernel for the other options, or edit what you wanted. I was convinced by those wiser than me that even that task would be nearly unmanageable because the kernel compile options move too fast.

Consider this: Virtually every package in the Portage tree is under continual development. Virtually all of them have lots of compile options to help tailor the app to the builder's specifications. Virtually none of those packages has an interest in a GUI tool to help compile it. Such a thing would be completely out of scope. So you expect somebody to make a GUI tool that keeps track of the thousands of options available, when those options change continually?

If you convinced Gentoo to generalize enough to make the GUI installer feasible, then you would have a mass exodus for all those who want Gentoo to be the most flexible thing it can possibly be.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShadowCat8
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 07 Oct 2008
Posts: 129
Location: Arcadia, CA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TwYst wrote:
ok wrote:
If you want the full control over your car, you don't buy one with an automatic transmission.

being in the automotive trade myself this one kinda made me laugh a bit.
along that same vein if you want a sports car you buy a sports car to start with. you dont buy a vw beetle and spend months after months modifying it to be a sports car because in the end its still just a vw beetle.
but if you start with something a bit better like a ford mustang v8 and all you have to do to make it your own is say add a turbo or nitrous to get the extended preformance that you want that would beat the doors off the vw then you would be far better off in the end.
...


Yeah, but I think the point you are missing is the fact that we aren't starting off with a VW Beetle, a Mustang or even a Ferrari for that matter...
We are like the guys who originally created the Ariel Atom, by starting with our own idea of how the system should work and building it that way!
And, while some of us DO end up building our own Ariel Atom, some of us have built the Caterpillar D9L bulldozer, others have built the M104 Wolverine, and still others have built theirs into the Hayabusa!

THAT is the part of the control that you seem to be missing. Gentoo is everything because Gentoo isn't anything until you start building it into something!

HTH.
_________________
------
"One thing Gentoo Linux has taught me is; You can never know EVERYTHING. but you can keep learning!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum