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yabbadabbadont
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
d2_racing wrote:
vipernicus wrote:
Would using the minimal CD make him cooler and smarter?

No, but he will need to work to get his installation sucessful.Not a click here and and a click there and then....hehehe you have sucessfully install a distribution :)
Pedantic point: could people please avoid quoting a whole load of stuff that isn't relevant? Not all of us have DSL y'know? /end of rant ;)

Sucks to be you I guess... :D

/me feels smug about 6Mbit connection
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ChojinDSL
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys, just a quick note about the Gentoo LiveCD not booting properly on certain Machines.

One of the great things about Gentoo is the flexibility and various possibilities of Installation.

If the LiveCD doesnt boot properly, just stick in any LiveCD that boots properly.

Then when your at the CLI, just download a stage3 archive, chroot and start your Installation.

I usually use Knoppix to install Gentoo, unless its a server install, then I just boot the minimal Gentoo CD fire up an SSH server and take it from there.

All that being said, having Gentoo forums and developers support Sabayon can create unforseen complications.

Yes, Sabayon is just Gentoo with a custom Overlay and some fancy scripts to make things easier. But herein lies the pudding. Wether or not something works, has little to do with how big or little the error is that caused the malfunction. It can be typo, a unstable use flag, wrong version, different path. The end result is, something doesnt work. Sabayon does certain things its own way. As such you cant really expect the Gentoo devs to keep track of which parts of Sabayon are exactly the same as Gentoo and which parts arent.
And I dont think the average Sabayon user would either.

Of course, as long as Sabayon users always clearly state that the problem they are experiencing is on Sabayon, then Gentoo users know to take any solutions posted in that thread with a grain (or perhaps even Kilo) of salt.
That being said, I think the sabayon users are the ones at risk in the end. Gentoo solutions to their problems will most likely not always work.
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChojinDSL wrote:
I think the sabayon users are the ones at risk in the end. Gentoo solutions to their problems will most likely not always work.

I feel the urge to jump on this and ask: Why not?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my $.02

I can completely understand that G2 devs dont want to take responsibility or even mess with problems on the Sabayon side, they have no way of knowing what kind of changes have occured and any sane person should not expect them to. However, users of Sabayon should still be allowed to use this forum to investigate their issues as long as they are honest about what they are doing. I dont expect them to say they are using Sabayon for every problem either, but when its appropriate. There is no need to announce it everytime they are looking for simple gentoo based tasks and commands that wont matter what distro.

I still faithfully use Gentoo on my favorite boxes at home and at work where I can sneak one by the boss, but I have loaded Sabayon on one laptop at home. I love the control and manual setup Gentoo gives me, that is what I love about linux in general. However, I got one nice thing from the Sabayon side that doesn't diminish my Gentooieness. I got a fully working cutting edge system with all the latest bells and whistles in the course of a few hours without months of research and headache. Im not a natural developer, but I am an experienced IT data center admin, so much of my gentoo tasks are the result of much research and reading on manually configuring linux. First thing I did was to go inside and start lookign at all the configs and packages to see what they did and I learned a few things that I may not have known before. As such, I still come to both resources for inspiration and tips.
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Appleman1234
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see the point of this thread.

Sabayon is Gentoo with a custom overlay , an aggressively modern configured /etc/make.conf. (Yes it has more use flags then most Gentoo installations) and a poorly setup inflated world file (dep -w finds a few hundred redundant entries, let alone the the unnecessary ones for most Gentoo users). It also has a Live DVD and Live CD environment with an anaconda installer.

I understand that Gentoo developers don't want to support it whether because of

  • (whether truth or allegation )lxnay's actions in telling Sabayon users to file bugs in Gentoo Bugzilla and conveniently forget to mention they are using Sabayon
  • The inability to identify if the problems are caused by packages in the Sabayon Overlay
  • The inability to identify if the problems are caused by the customised Sabayon toolchain and make.conf / world configuration


What I don't understand

  • Why I can't a verify a bug in Gentoo Bugzilla that occurs in a ~arch Gentoo without that bug being marked invalid because I honestly mention that I run Sabayon.
  • Why I can't submit a bug in the Gentoo Bugzilla after identifying that it isn't caused by the Sabayon overlay or the Sabayon toolchain (ie confirming that it occurs in normal Gentoo) without that bug being marked invalid because I honestly mention that I run Sabayon. ?

    When I have a compile error or bug that is caused by Sabayon overlay or toolchain, I happily file it in the Sabayon Bugzilla and don't file it in the Gentoo Bugzilla because I realise that Gentoo doesn't support it or Gentoo isn't affected by it.

  • All the misguided animosity between the Gentoo Community and the Sabayon Community.

    Gentoo is Gentoo and Sabayon is Sabayon, there are differences and similarities and overlaps, there is is no need for the internal fighting and insults inside Gentoo and between Gentoo and Sabayon.

    I support the allocation of putting Sabayon related posts in the Gentoo forum category of Unsupported Software.


I wish everyone all the best and keep compiling and smiling
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gerard82
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,
I bought a new rig.
It has the Asus P5W DH Deluxe motherboard.
Prior to delivery I d'led kernelOfTruth's minimal install cd.
Unfortunately it doesn't work.Why I don't know.
I then tried Knoppix 5.1.1.It starts but gives up after a while.
The only thing that worked was Sabayon 3.3.
I started to make the install but when I tried to emerge portage
it came back with an error about help2man.
I don't intend to install Sabayon but it looks like it is the only
thing that comes close to use as a Gentoo installer for this mobo.
G.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appleman1234 wrote:
Sabayon is Gentoo with a custom overlay , an aggressively modern configured /etc/make.conf. (Yes it has more use flags then most Gentoo installations) and a poorly setup inflated world file (dep -w finds a few hundred redundant entries, let alone the the unnecessary ones for most Gentoo users). It also has a Live DVD and Live CD environment with an anaconda installer.

It's a distro. It has its own brand etc. Gentoo is a meta distro, but you're supposed to make binary distros from it, not leech. The problem I see is that they use the gentoo ebuild tree, the gentoo bugzilla with no gentoo QA and then complain that gentoo don't support their bugs. In the meantime, their efforts aren't helping other gentoo users, while the invalid bugs are wasting gentoo dev time. So why exactly should gentoo feel good about it? FFS all you have to do is add your l33t overlay to sunrise, maybe work on signed eclasses and make the binhost stuff available. Then you'd just be part of gentoo, and we'd all benefit. No one's stopping you trying out whatever CFLAGS you like. You just have to verify the bugs with sane ones, that's all.
Quote:
Why I can't a verify a bug in Gentoo Bugzilla that occurs in a ~arch Gentoo without that bug being marked invalid because I honestly mention that I run Sabayon.

Because of all the fscked up possibilities that could arise from mad CFLAGS, USE flags and user-submitted patches that characterise unofficial overlays. That's just a guess mind :)
Quote:
Why I can't submit a bug in the Gentoo Bugzilla after identifying that it isn't caused by the Sabayon overlay or the Sabayon toolchain (ie confirming that it occurs in normal Gentoo) without that bug being marked invalid because I honestly mention that I run Sabayon. ?

If it happens on a normal gentoo box then it's a gentoo bug, so file it as such and don't say anything about Sabayon since it's a gentoo install. I hope you keep a gentoo machine running to verify this though ;)
Quote:
Gentoo is Gentoo and Sabayon is Sabayon, there are differences and similarities and overlaps, there is is no need for the internal fighting and insults inside Gentoo and between Gentoo and Sabayon.

They are not the same organisation. One is a leech imo; I outlined my reasons above.
Quote:
I support the allocation of putting Sabayon related posts in the Gentoo forum category of Unsupported Software.

Well I don't; that forum is for stuff gentoo users recommend to each other. I really don't want to have to wade past stuff for sabayon which I can't even run. What's wrong with http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/ ?
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:

I disagree. Each installer does what it needs to do. The installer for 2007.0 is being completely redesigned; it won't be the one you've used for the past two releases.


Just really wanted to bring this back up.

Are you really going to argue that Gentoo's LiveCD Installer is going to do what it's meant to do? All you hear is people complaining about how it messes up. On another note, 2007.0 wasn't shipped with ATI drivers in x86 or amd64. F'ing fantastic job there.
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blippy wrote:
nightmorph wrote:

I disagree. Each installer does what it needs to do. The installer for 2007.0 is being completely redesigned; it won't be the one you've used for the past two releases.


Just really wanted to bring this back up.

Are you really going to argue that Gentoo's LiveCD Installer is going to do what it's meant to do? All you hear is people complaining about how it messes up. On another note, 2007.0 wasn't shipped with ATI drivers in x86 or amd64. F'ing fantastic job there.


Ebuilds gets old, so using the minimal iso is enough. You should first sync, get a basic system running, and then install X, ...

So there is no need for ATI-drivers before.
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tw04l124 wrote:
blippy wrote:
nightmorph wrote:

I disagree. Each installer does what it needs to do. The installer for 2007.0 is being completely redesigned; it won't be the one you've used for the past two releases.


Just really wanted to bring this back up.

Are you really going to argue that Gentoo's LiveCD Installer is going to do what it's meant to do? All you hear is people complaining about how it messes up. On another note, 2007.0 wasn't shipped with ATI drivers in x86 or amd64. F'ing fantastic job there.


Ebuilds gets old, so using the minimal iso is enough. You should first sync, get a basic system running, and then install X, ...

So there is no need for ATI-drivers before.


The LIVE CD doesn't have ati drivers. Meaning, I can't use the liveCd. I'm not talking about using the liveCd to install the ati drivers on my real machine.

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=177726#10
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Ateo
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dudes. sabayon is gentoo. it cracks me up those that claim it's not. it's a broken gentoo, but gentoo nonetheless.

however, there should be no 'official' support for sabayon via gentoo. that much can be said.
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sabayon is not gentoo, it is based on gentoo. If it was gentoo then the devs would support, it would have it's own category in b.g.o, possibly it's own forum or sub forum around here. But it doesn't becuase it isn't gentoo.

They add an overlay to it, which isn't a big deal, but then they much with the toolchain and base installs to make it a highly unstable OS. unstable != bleeding edge. Last I heard they couldn't even get 64 bit support to work either through emul, or chroot. Kind of funny, if it was Gentoo it would of been working over 1 or 2 ago ... but it isn't.

B/c of the mucking with the OS you can say it is based on Gentoo .. which no one is arguing, but b/c it isn't supported by the devs, the community or anyone associated with gentoo, b/c they muck with the stuff the devs suggest don't, and don;t even maintain the base set of libraries properly to give a fully working system. The people running it treat it like their own distro, let them have it. They can sync it to the gentoo base every night, there are pretty of OSS forks that do it to supply their own patchset in a form of another software, this is what Sabayon is doing.

NOTE :: I haven't read up on their site lately, 64bit support could of improved, but I doubt that.
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ateo wrote:
dudes. sabayon is gentoo. it cracks me up those that claim it's not. it's a broken gentoo, but gentoo nonetheless.

however, there should be no 'official' support for sabayon via gentoo. that much can be said.


Dude, I think that the Gentoo devs are the ones to say WHAT is Gentoo, and what is not. No one else has that right.

Sabayon has many differences, starting with something as critical for a source metadistro, like the toolchain.

To claim that Sabayon is Gentoo, is like to claim that Ubuntu is Debian, when it is really a completelly different distro that forked at one moment from Debian.
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

6thpink wrote:
Dude, I think that the Gentoo devs are the ones to say WHAT is Gentoo, and what is not. No one else has that right.

Sabayon has many differences, starting with something as critical for a source metadistro, like the toolchain.

To claim that Sabayon is Gentoo, is like to claim that Ubuntu is Debian, when it is really a completelly different distro that forked at one moment from Debian.


You are correct. I back down. Thanks for pointing out something not so obvious. That was my book-cover judgement of the OS.
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ugh...I tried Sabayon. It was horrible. Never touching that ever again. Poor choices, leaks all over, unstable (as in ~x86), emerge -avuD world would have taken me months to upgrade and fix problems and that was on a freshly installed system.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G2k wrote:
ugh...I tried Sabayon. It was horrible. Never touching that ever again. Poor choices, leaks all over, unstable (as in ~x86), emerge -avuD world would have taken me months to upgrade and fix problems and that was on a freshly installed system.


http://www.funtoo.org/drobbins/blog/2007/05/sabayon-gentoo-reborn.html

and the author is......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Robbins
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And? :roll:

We all know who Daniel Robbins is. While that can make you feel excited, Daniel Robbins in no one to say what is Gentoo and what is not. As I previously said, only the Gentoo team can do so. And only via official announcements. Even is a core dev of Gentoo says "Sabayon is Gentoo", that does not mean it is true, because that is a personal opinion.

Unless Gentoo as itself, proclaims via any official announcement that Sabayon is Gentoo, and Sabayon confirms that, the discussion is over.

Daniel Robbins is a person, with opinions like everyone. That doesn't turn those opinions true, regardless of the relevance that that person have had for Gentoo in the past. Let's not mix personal opinions with facts.

Also, strictly speaking, "an enhanced version of Gentoo" is not my idea of "equal to Gentoo". I could also say I have an "enhanced version of FVWM" cause I patch it (and I do), but if you ask the FVWM workers, they will say that what I use is not related to them in any way. Period. There is no way I can force anyone to think that what I made based on their product, is the same that their product and can take the same name. That would be a bit nazi, if you ask me.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted who the author was because people might not know his blog (I didn't). I think honestly Sabayon has gotten much more crap than it deserves. It's trying to do something that I think Gentoo hasn't/won't...and that's bring gentoo (imo) to a much more easily accessible state of "normal" computer users.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blippy wrote:
I posted who the author was because people might not know his blog (I didn't). I think honestly Sabayon has gotten much more crap than it deserves. It's trying to do something that I think Gentoo hasn't/won't...and that's bring gentoo (imo) to a much more easily accessible state of "normal" computer users.


If someone need to have a more simple distribution, like a Gentoo binary, there is Arch, that thing can do the job :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:22 pm    Post subject: So you want a binary gentoo nox-Hand.. :D Reply with quote

d2_racing wrote:
If someone need to have a more simple distribution, like a Gentoo binary, there is Arch, that thing can do the job :)

Or indeed tinderbox - the official binary gentoo.
Code:
man portage <ENTER>
/BINHOST <ENTER>

..and check http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Using_PORTAGE_BINHOST
Please note that if you have different use flags, portage will not consider a package from tinderbox. If you really want to run a binary gentoo, set it up from tinderbox from install.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: So you want a binary gentoo nox-Hand.. :D Reply with quote

Hang on,,,, did someone randomly swipe my name thus resulting in me getting randomly pinged in a random irc channel so I could randomly come here and ask why the randomness was allowed in the first place?



:roll: Me no want Bin-too :) I want a faster PC so Gentoo compiles quicker ;) .... ie.... my laptop next month :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sabayon is Gentoo-based, and despite whatever they may claim on their website, it is not 100% Gentoo. As such, support requests for it on bugzilla are marked invalid or wontfix, and will go unanswered here on the forums (or else moved to Unsupported Software or OTW). This is due in part because the creator of Sabayon has admitted that he has told his users to lie about what distro they're using when they come to Gentoo IRC channels in order to get technical support.

Is it Gentoo? Close, but no cigar.


sabayon IS gentoo!!!! the only differences are in some packages that aren't as gentoo's repo as the kde kicker (the opensuse's port) and the use and cf and ld flags. Period.
if you use that flags on a gentoo toolchain and compile a gentoo system solely from gentoo main repo you'll have a gentoo, and when the toolchain's packages are updated and you'll upgrade them, you'll then have a sabayon system!!!! Period.
So you devs don't say anymore that sabayon is not gentoo cause it is. If you consider gentoo only the one from the stable branch with superstable use flags and superstable cfflags and ldflags then sabayon is not gentoo, but if you consider gentoo a -o3 system with experimental flags sabayon is gentoo.... I thought it was a different version, but it is a great mess of unstable packages.... I admire the developer for his intents of developing new stuffs in gentoo, but the problem is that sabayon is just too experimental.... Period.

Quote:
Dude, I think that the Gentoo devs are the ones to say WHAT is Gentoo, and what is not. No one else has that right.

Sabayon has many differences, starting with something as critical for a source metadistro, like the toolchain.

To claim that Sabayon is Gentoo, is like to claim that Ubuntu is Debian, when it is really a completelly different distro that forked at one moment from Debian.


Try to see what are the real differences from the two distros and you'll find that the only ones are some packages that aren't present in the main repo and some packages that differ as the kicker of the newtworkmanager.... Gentoo devs have all the right to say what is gentoo, but they're blinded and closed minded if they cannot see that the only differences are the flags, that you can use also for a standard gentoo system and that the toolchain will surely be recompiled with that flags if you're going to update the packages.... I'm not here to take the defensive parts of sabayon, but at least to point out to the devs what they haven't had the time to see....
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saying "period" over and over again doesn't make you right.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Gentoo is not Sabayon and Sabayon is not Gentoo period.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said above, it doesn't matter whatever we say here.

The Gentoo Foundation is the copyright holder and owner of Gentoo, and legally, only they can say what Gentoo is, and what is not Gentoo. And Sabayon is not Gentoo.

That is the only valid "period" on the real world. The rest, are just personal opinions that doesn't hold any validity at all. Regardless if you expose or not any technical arguments. And it doesn't matter how high you put your voice or how long your posts are. It doesn't matter either how good or bad your argumentation is.
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