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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
I have never seen a post from lxnay saying people shouldn't use Gentoo. It is possible such a post exists, but I've sure never seen it.

Er, so what does telling everyone he's moving away from our buggy ebuilds mean?
Quote:
Again, I'm guessing he became a Gentoo UserRep because he loathes Gentoo and has no desire to support it or help the community.

WTF does that have to do with it? I have NFC what his motives are/were, only that his actions are harmful to Gentoo IMO. It distracts focus, and splits the community. His charming manner seems like another negative to me, but it's not as significant (although it might indicate where some of the original problems arose; personally i think it's cultural differences and we're seeing the end-results of a few years of difficulty.) Guessing motives is a futile game: it's much easier just to look at actions and effects -- which can't always be inferred or known in advance ofc. (Blame isn't very useful.)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All he is doing is proving what many users are asking for. I've never seen him suggest that anyone else leave Gentoo. In fact, his work no doubt strengthens Gentoo, and has brought some people back because many people who left Gentoo came back for Sabayon. Furthermore, Sabayon is making it easier for new first-time users to use Gentoo.

And Sabayon is Gentoo. Does emerge work out of the box? Yes. Does it use Gentoo's portage library? Yes. That makes it Gentoo.

The people who want compiz-fusion are either going to use xeffects or the sabayon overlay regardless, so don't tell me than an overlay means a system is no longer Gentoo.

Attacking people who contribute to the community is what divides people and destroys the community.

When users contribute, acknowledge them, give their work an objective criticism, and either include it, or give reasonable feedback for why it can't be included. This seems to be lacking in the Gentoo community. I've largely lived out of overlays and the "Unsupported Software" area, and been quite happier for it. When the tweaked glibc builds were offering considerable increases in performance, despite many people suggesting it, it was never seriously considered for inclusion into portage. Many of the kernel-sources that people did were never seriously considered for inclusion into portage. Hell, pretty much any ebuild someone makes and contributes on their own is pushed into Unsupported Software, and not considered for inclusion.

Way to recognize, foster and support your community.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
And Sabayon is Gentoo. Does emerge work out of the box? Yes. Does it use Gentoo's portage library? Yes. That makes it Gentoo.
By that logic, SuSE is Red Hat, Ubuntu is Debian and anything with a functional tool chain is Linux From Scratch. Consider the difference between being alike and being derived or similar.
enderandrew wrote:
Hell, pretty much any ebuild someone makes and contributes on their own is pushed into Unsupported Software, and not considered for inclusion.
Because that software is not officially supported on Gentoo systems, being unsupported does not imply being deprecated.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
By that logic, SuSE is Red Hat, Ubuntu is Debian and anything with a functional tool chain is Linux From Scratch. Consider the difference between being alike and being derived or similar.


That just isn't true. Way to oversimplify. Ubuntu doesn't use the Debian repositories. You can't take a Debian CD and "upgrade" Ubuntu. The same applies for SuSE.

With Sabayon, you can delete the overlay, and magically by some people's definition, it becomes Gentoo because the overlay stops it from being Gentoo. By that logic, any person on the planet who uses an overlay or custom ebuild isn't using Gentoo. Are you familiar with this site?

http://overlays.gentoo.org/

Many of the devs have their own custom overlay. Are you going to insist that they aren't using Gentoo because of an overlay? What about everyone who uses Sunrise?

Oh wait, Sunrise users can still submit bug reports, and are using Gentoo, but Sabayon users aren't because the logic is.... Well, there is no logical reason for that.

Sabayon is Gentoo with an overlay.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole argument is now pointless and you lot are just going round in circles. The only issue that exists is support, and that has been explained already (several times over). Other than that, it doesn't matter who considers Sabayon to (not) be Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:

That just isn't true. Way to oversimplify. Ubuntu doesn't use the Debian repositories. You can't take a Debian CD and "upgrade" Ubuntu. The same applies for SuSE.


It's so true, also if Sabayon is Gentoo...why I cannot install a clean Gentoo with the Sabayon...why ? Because Sabayon use the basic functions of Gentoo and use a overlays to install the packages.

The same goes with Ubuntu.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
All he is doing is proving what many users are asking for. I've never seen him suggest that anyone else leave Gentoo.

Well maybe it's subjective, but that's how I read his statements that people should be using Sabayon as it's Gentoo with less bugs.
Quote:
In fact, his work no doubt strengthens Gentoo, and has brought some people back because many people who left Gentoo came back for Sabayon. Furthermore, Sabayon is making it easier for new first-time users to use Gentoo.

You're missing the point that he doesn't contribute any bugfixes back to Gentoo. In that sense, he's taking the work Gentoo does, adding to it for Sabayon users only, and not giving anything back. At the same time, those people are not using a Gentoo-supported setup, and they waste time on the IRC channels and forums that, while people freely give it, is meant for Gentoo users. The arguments about it, like this one, take up time and occasionally developer focus is lost while pointless rows go on, with emotive tactics presented as rational argument. I'm just waiting for the ``ad hominem because you disagree with me'' to make its appearance.. ;-)
Quote:
And Sabayon is Gentoo. Does emerge work out of the box? Yes. Does it use Gentoo's portage library? Yes. That makes it Gentoo.

Er, does it? Then how come Sabayon bugfixes for ebuilds are not in Gentoo? It's about much more than whether software works: by that token a user running WINE on Linux is actually a Windoze user.
Quote:
The people who want compiz-fusion are either going to use xeffects or the sabayon overlay regardless, so don't tell me than an overlay means a system is no longer Gentoo.

I never said that at all: that's why I don't understand why it isn't just an overlay and a liveCD, rather than presenting itself as, and acting like, a competitor. At least if you use the xeffects overlay the work is fed back into the main tree for everyone's benefit.
Quote:
Attacking people who contribute to the community is what divides people and destroys the community.

He doesn't contribute to the Gentoo community.
Get that through your skull.
He uses Gentoo ebuilds, and the development work that goes into them, and doesn't give anything back. That is the problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just installed Sabayon on my system, and I have to say that I am pretty impressed with the entire installation process. The installer is very stable. Unlike the Gentoo Installer. The gui looks nice and the packages installed are very appealing. BUT....Its not Gentoo. I know its Gentoo but its not Gentoo if you know what I mean. Ive been such a loyal Gentoo user that I had to try this out to see if I would like something new. BUT....I dont. I dont like new at all. Although it works very much like Gentoo, but it is not Gentoo. There is so much stuff that comes cramped in this distribution. I think its a commercial version of Gentoo. Its like the Ubuntu series or Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d2_racing wrote:
enderandrew wrote:

That just isn't true. Way to oversimplify. Ubuntu doesn't use the Debian repositories. You can't take a Debian CD and "upgrade" Ubuntu. The same applies for SuSE.


It's so true, also if Sabayon is Gentoo...why I cannot install a clean Gentoo with the Sabayon...why ? Because Sabayon use the basic functions of Gentoo and use a overlays to install the packages.

The same goes with Ubuntu.


I love how compiz-fusion is "unclean" and how every major distro is supporting users who install it, except Gentoo.

To remove the "unclean" compiz-fusion, you use this magical command called emerge. If you want the tainted, evil overlay completely off your box (because it isn't Gentoo unless all unofficial ebuilds are removed, then you delete the overlay. In two commands, you have Gentoo, except you already had Gentoo to begin with.

Now explain how you do that going from SuSe to RedHat.

As you can see, the initial analogy is flawed, exactly how I said it was.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lokoalex wrote:
I just installed Sabayon on my system, and I have to say that I am pretty impressed with the entire installation process. The installer is very stable. Unlike the Gentoo Installer. The gui looks nice and the packages installed are very appealing. BUT....Its not Gentoo. I know its Gentoo but its not Gentoo if you know what I mean. Ive been such a loyal Gentoo user that I had to try this out to see if I would like something new. BUT....I dont. I dont like new at all. Although it works very much like Gentoo, but it is not Gentoo. There is so much stuff that comes cramped in this distribution. I think its a commercial version of Gentoo. Its like the Ubuntu series or Gentoo.


Might I ask why you suggest it isn't Gentoo?

And I can't recommend this enough, but uninstall Beagle. Beagle wastes HDD space, is constantly indexing, and kills performance. I'm pretty sure Beagle is going to be removed from all future versions of Sabayon.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
d2_racing wrote:
It's so true, also if Sabayon is Gentoo...why I cannot install a clean Gentoo with the Sabayon...why ? Because Sabayon use the basic functions of Gentoo and use a overlays to install the packages.

The same goes with Ubuntu.


I love how compiz-fusion is "unclean" and how every major distro is supporting users who install it, except Gentoo.

You have heard of #gentoo-xeffects (the channel, not the overlay)? I suggest you go and discuss your concerns about the inability of Gentoo to support compiz with them.
Quote:
To remove the "unclean" compiz-fusion, you use this magical command called emerge. If you want the tainted, evil overlay completely off your box (because it isn't Gentoo unless all unofficial ebuilds are removed, then you delete the overlay. In two commands, you have Gentoo, except you already had Gentoo to begin with.

No you don't because you still have all the other packages, including the toolchain, all built with unsupported CFLAGS (so I hear) and patches that haven't been through Gentoo QA. Lord only knows what else he changes. You'd have to reinstall from a stage3 (ie wipe Sabayon completely) to be sure of a Gentoo install.

Way to ignore your community.. ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:

To remove the "unclean" compiz-fusion, you use this magical command called emerge.


Do you know that Slackware has a apt-get package manager...so can I call Slackware a Debian box ?

For my concern, I don't think Sabayon is a Gentoo box...just because it use the package manager.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

d2_racing wrote:
enderandrew wrote:

To remove the "unclean" compiz-fusion, you use this magical command called emerge.


Do you know that Slackware has a apt-get package manager...so can I call Slackware a Debian box ?

For my concern, I don't think Sabayon is a Gentoo box...just because it use the package manager.


It doesn't just use emerge, it is Gentoo. He did a Gentoo install, made binaries and threw them on a DVD. lxnay has only been making Gentoo DVDs for years, and even though they often carried unofficial builds, people were very content to call them Gentoo, but now that it includes an install method, people are insisting it isn't Gentoo.

Given that he used the Gentoo install method, and uses the Gentoo repositories (which Slashware does not use Debian repositories, a point I apparently need to keep repeating) can anyone name one piece of evidence to suggest it isn't Gentoo?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
Given that he used the Gentoo install method, and uses the Gentoo repositories (which Slashware does not use Debian repositories, a point I apparently need to keep repeating) can anyone name one piece of evidence to suggest it isn't Gentoo?

Man, you're a troll IMO.
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No you don't because you still have all the other packages, including the toolchain, all built with unsupported CFLAGS (so I hear) and patches that haven't been through Gentoo QA. Lord only knows what else he changes. You'd have to reinstall from a stage3 (ie wipe Sabayon completely) to be sure of a Gentoo install.

It may have started off as a Gentoo build, but it isn't now. Moreover, you don't see anyone else who slaps together a binary disk from Gentoo (cf Catalyst) and uses it to make a distro insisting that it's Gentoo. Get over it. EOD for me, I can't believe anyone can be so deliberately obtuse.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sabayon is built with "-Os -march"

Clearly those are horribly unsafe CFLAGS. I love how this rumor keeps persisting. Way to blast something based on complete lies.

Quote:
Man, you're a troll IMO.


Trolls argue for the sake of arguing because they love pissing people off. I only enter into a discussion if I feel I have something to say. People keep insisting that Sabayon isn't Gentoo, which I think is hypocrisy. Why is it okay to install Sunrise, but not the Sabayon overlay? Were the Gentoo devs refusing all bug requests from people running the xeffects overlay before?

xeffects specific bugs are directed to that team, but general bug reports were still honored.

Insisting that Sabayon users aren't using Gentoo makes no sense, and divides the community unfairly.

I asked a perfectly valid question, and have yet to hear an answer. How is it not Gentoo?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a question for all of you: Why do you feel that Sabayon has to be defined as "(not) being Gentoo" other than for official support purposes?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
Clearly those are horribly unsafe CFLAGS. I love how this rumor keeps persisting. Way to blast something based on complete lies.

I said I have no idea what the flags are as I don't use it. That's what "(so I hear)" meant.
Quote:
Trolls argue for the sake of arguing because they love pissing people off. I only enter into a discussion if I feel I have something to say. People keep insisting that Sabayon isn't Gentoo, which I think is hypocrisy.

Actually, there are all sorts of reasons for trolling: sometimes it's because someone has an agenda to promote (and you profess knowledge of what lxnay has been up to from the beginning) other times it's because people have emotional issues, or far more commonly *and which appears the same* someone is just having a bad hair day/week. It happens.
I considered you more of a troll because you ignored my point over 2 or 3 replies, the same answer to the same question that I give again at the end of this. *sheesh*
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Why is it okay to install Sunrise, but not the Sabayon overlay? Were the Gentoo devs refusing all bug requests from people running the xeffects overlay before?

OFC not: as I have pointed out, if you use xeffects, the work feeds directly back into the main portage tree. If it doesn't why on Earth should Gentoo spend valuable developer time supporting it?
As for using the overlay, it's entirely up to you: it's your machine. But it has the same status as any other third-party overlay: ie no support from Gentoo. It's even more critical if base system packages are patched (and again, I have nfc what sabayon patches) but basically it comes down to this for me: I wouldn't feel secure installing those ebuilds. Read that how you want, I really am tired of this one :S
I don't use sunrise for the same reason, but at least sunrise is overseen by gentoo devs, and it's basically the route into becoming a dev afaict: ebuilds you submit go to maintainer-wanted. If you can be bothered to do a bit of reading (much less than for installing Gentoo) and can fix any issues that repoman points out (without freaking out about the affront to your dignity, I imagine) you can get your ebuild in, reviewed by Gentoo devs. From there you can maintain it with access to bugzilla to track it (you filed a bug with submission already, remember? ;) and I imagine if you get enough things in and help out with other stuff you have a much better start at becoming a developer.
So in that sense (as well as in the sense of ebuilds) sunrise contributes a lot more to Gentoo than sabayon, since it's the training ground for would-be developers.
Again, all users have access to sunrise. I am glad we can use sabayon via layman, but again I wouldn't expect it to be supported by Gentoo. I certainly wouldn't trust it as an install base. That's just me: get over it.
Quote:
xeffects specific bugs are directed to that team, but general bug reports were still honored.

Insisting that Sabayon users aren't using Gentoo makes no sense, and divides the community unfairly.

I asked a perfectly valid question, and have yet to hear an answer. How is it not Gentoo?

No more: simply because the work does not get contributed back to Gentoo proper, so doesn't merit Gentoo support.
It's not about anything else. If you really care, start doing what lxnay said: diff his ebuilds against the ones in the tree and go through and see what changes might be useful to Gentoo. Make the data available on the web so others can review it and submit bugfixes to Gentoo ebuilds that have been collectively reviewed. That way lxnay's work will start to benefit the rest of us, and maybe (one day, who knows?!) it'll be easier for him to finally just become a dev so we can stop banging on about it.

I'll even help, if you can log onto irc.freenode.org, channel #friendly-coders.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The overlay is put up on layman the same as any other. So xeffects goes back into the main tree, where as the Sabayon overlay (which borrows heavily from xeffects) is somehow different?

There is a key difference here.

With any other overlay, you get support from Gentoo for your base Gentoo system. With Sabayon you get zero support. I am insisting this is hypocritical and harmful.

Quite frankly, when you deal with multiple arches, multiple toolchains, different CFLAGS, different LDFLAGS, different USE flags, and literally a damned near infinite combination of packages, the base Gentoo system is in itself a nightmare to support. I can see why someone shouldn't be expected to support ebuilds they didn't put together, but it is pretty simple to see if a problem is related to an overlay or not.

emerge -p foo will show you if it is pulling from an overlay or the main portage tree.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
The overlay is put up on layman the same as any other. So xeffects goes back into the main tree, where as the Sabayon overlay (which borrows heavily from xeffects) is somehow different?

There is a key difference here.

Yes there is: xeffects is worked on by Gentoo devs. And BTW, you just pointed out that actually you don't need sabayon to get the latest 3D, since it "borrows" heavily from gentoo xeffects. (You were going on about compiz-fusion iirc) Sabayon ebuild fixes don't go back into the tree because sabayon choose not to submit bugs upstream with patches to ebuilds. Did you not get that part?
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With any other overlay, you get support from Gentoo for your base Gentoo system. With Sabayon you get zero support. I am insisting this is hypocritical and harmful.

Yeah we know: your only "reason" so far is that it divides the community. I said that a long time ago as a reason not to support sabayon, along with several others. Instead of accepting that it's reasonable for people not to want to give their free time to someone who doesn't contribute back, you want to go on and on.
Quote:
Quite frankly, when you deal with multiple arches, multiple toolchains, different CFLAGS, different LDFLAGS, different USE flags, and literally a damned near infinite combination of packages, the base Gentoo system is in itself a nightmare to support. I can see why someone shouldn't be expected to support ebuilds they didn't put together, but it is pretty simple to see if a problem is related to an overlay or not.

emerge -p foo will show you if it is pulling from an overlay or the main portage tree.

Quite frankly I won't be answering you again. After a long rant with quite amazing stubborness in stupidity (aka not seeing the other point of view) you seem to think others will just do the work for you with 'your' patronising idea (and thus typify the type of client any professional hates, but loves to charge.) You really think telling me how to find which overlay something comes from, is useful? Good luck, Mr Wiggin. I suggest you try #bash.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You get brief kudos for apparently reading Card, but you lose points for calling people stupid and a troll. You fail at civilized discussion. Way to demonstrate the logical superiority of your point.

Quote:
Yeah we know: your only "reason" so far is that it divides the community


Reason 1: Sabayon is Gentoo and no one has proven or demonstrated otherwise.
Reason 2: It is hypocritical to support other overlays, and then cut off a growing number of your own user base. The devs themselves often use custom overlays.
Reason 3: Being antagonistic to your users is not the way to foster a community. A volunteer project lives and dies on volunteers, and where do you get your volunteers from?
Reason 4: Sabayon is bringing old users back into the fold, as well as many new users.
Reason 5: People have clammored for a binary install method for ages. You get fewer support requests from people screwing up their initial install, placate those who want a quick install, and frankly it even helps experienced users who know what they are doing and don't want to take the time to do a full install from scratch. Take the "core" Sabayon install, save yourself two days and go from there.
Reason 6: Gentoo can benefit from a more "experimental" testbed branch, like EVERY OTHER DISTROO ON THE PLANET HAS. Let people here test out the latest and greatest, and then take what works from it and place it upstream. You keep insisting that lxnay won't contribute anything upstream. Do you know that for a fact? I asked openly why a dev hasn't reached out to him to work with him, and they were completely against extending an invitation to anyone. In a volunteer project, it should be a two-way street. I've witnessed most custom ebuilds and such immediately get rejected and cast off to Unsupported Software. Maybe it wasn't submitted upstream because lxnay knew it would be rejected. When the prevailing attitude is to not include any user input or contributions, why are people going to fight to try to get them included?
Reason 7: I keep hearing how there aren't enough devs to maintain all the packages, or do all the work. Wow, an entreprising guy comes around who has done great work with Gentoo in the community, was recognized for it and became a User Rep. If you need the help, then ask for it.
Reason 8: This one is important. Chuck Norris advocates Sabayon.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you two please continue this "discussion" in private, I don't think anyone else is interested in it anymore.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. Thread gone stale and flamey, closing thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Gentoo and Sabayon. What's difference? Reply with quote

Hi!

Has anybody here tried Sabayon Linux? What's your meaning about it?
Why it has 965 H.P.D on http://distrowatch.com vs Gentoo's 417?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sabayon Linux have made Gentoo Linux easier to install and use by the looks of it. Alot of distributions do this these days. Ubuntu Linux is a great example. They've based their very popular distribution on Debian, but improved on it in a number of ways which has improved it's popularity.

HTH

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo and Sabayon. What's difference? Reply with quote

westves wrote:

Why it has 965 H.P.D on http://distrowatch.com vs Gentoo's 417?


because Gentoo doesn't have a release cycle? If you install Sabayon you're encouraged not to run an emerge world so you have to download the latest version to upgrade
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