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lxnay
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
wolf31o2 wrote:
Sabayon is a consumer. They are not a member of our community. They consume Gentoo resources and provide minimal feedback.

Yup. They take and take and take . . . and provide nothing in return. They don't send us code, developers, or lend a hand to fixing stuff or otherwise help out. That's not how successful derivatives/forks work, at least, none that I've seen. They all actually contribute back to the distributions from which they were born.

Just a suggestion, play with diff from /usr/portage and /usr/portage/local/layman/sabayon . It's the first thing I'd do if I'd be you. It's there, and GPL. lazy man.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:


In summary:

  • Sabayon is NOT Gentoo. Sabayon is CLOSE TO Gentoo.
  • The Gentoo community does provide unofficial support for Sabayon users.
  • Sabayon users should report problems to Sabayons developers, who will then report the problem upstream (which may or may not be the Gentoo developers) if necessary.
  • If it's a Sabayon specific problem, then only people who know Sabayon (ie. the Sabayon community) are going to be able to help solve it.


for who dont knows me (everyone i think), i'm in sabayon team (not dev, i've no skill) ..
i agree on AllenJB summary..

in our IRC channel we help sabayon users ourselves, but sometimes our knoledge is limited or there are solutions in common with gentoo .. we are still growing .. we have 2 (TWO) devs daily focused on development of the whole distro (there are 4 versions ATM, they are in two).. we still dont have our huge number of wiki.. we still dont have dev/people that can do bugfixes.. its hard for us, we are trying to do our best ..

i'm in irc chan 12 hrs per day, and i can assure that when we say a user to go to read gentoo resources (aka this forum or gentoo-wiki) is because we know the issue probably (90%) is in common with gentoo .. we NEVER expected gentoo to fix our problems .. we have a IRC chan and a forum full of volounteers that tries to help our users..

I (and i can bet also a lot of my mates) never said to users to go in gentoo chan and to lie saying they have gentoo .. maybe someone did, maybe some user , knowing sabayon is gentoo-based, said this .. thats not the problem.. i think the problem some of u have is mainly with lxnay, i know very little about the reason. i'm not interested ...

about take take take .. we took things from gentoo.. ubuntu took from debian.. other distros took software from other ones .. this is the opensource world, wake up dude..
we also gived to gentoo:
1) we showed the potential of gentoo at the world
2) we are showing gentoo can be user-friendly also for newbies (we r 5th on distroweatch for something, i hope)

u dont have to mess with us , u ,gentoo community , must think how to solve YOUR problems instead of attack us.. also daniel robbins (i hope i wrote it right) sais gentoo foundation has problems.. well, solve those instead of pointing finger and debate if sabayon is gentoo or not ..

PS: just as example, a lot of gentoo users comes in sabayon chan to solve problem with gentoo, we never kicked/banned them, we r pleased to help, and those users said that our channel there is a more user-friendly behave .. dont u think that if u have a bad behave with your users they should leave gentoo?

PPS: i dont say we in sabayon are all saint, but i dont understand why u r so closed about us.

PPPS: sorry for my english, i'm italian (yeah mafia & co. )
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic (Sabayon == Gentoo?) is so simple to answer that it's almost ridiculous, as it's just a basic application of OOP:
Code:
class Gentoo {
    public a { do something; }
    public b { do something; a; do something; }
    public c { do something; }
}

class Sabayon extends Gentoo {
    public a { do something else; }
    public d { do something; }
}

So the answer to Sabayon == Gentoo is "false", as the two classes aren't identical. However each Sabayon instance is also a Gentoo instance due to inheritance. Also shows very simple how support should be organized: Given the example above, issues about Sabayon.a() and Sabayon.d() should obviously be reported to the Sabayon project. Same for issues about Sabayon.b(), as it is affected by Sabayon.a(). However (assuming no side effects in a() or b()) issues about Sabayon.c() could be reported to the Gentoo project, as that method isn't modified by the Sabayon class.
Of course this is just an academic example, in the real world it's much harder to see if a() has an effect on b(), that's why downstream (or subclass maintainers in the OOP analogy) should always be the first address for bug reports, as they are the ones who (should) know if any of their modifications affect the functionality in question.

Mind this is just a technical analysis, it doesn't say anything about the social/political relationships between projects.


Last edited by Genone on Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:


Mind this is just a technical analysis, it doesn't say anything about the social/political relationships between projects.


some of your mate doesn't seem to think like u ...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genone wrote:
[...]

I completely agree.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lxnay wrote:
nightmorph wrote:
wolf31o2 wrote:
Sabayon is a consumer. They are not a member of our community. They consume Gentoo resources and provide minimal feedback.

Yup. They take and take and take . . . and provide nothing in return. They don't send us code, developers, or lend a hand to fixing stuff or otherwise help out. That's not how successful derivatives/forks work, at least, none that I've seen. They all actually contribute back to the distributions from which they were born.

Just a suggestion, play with diff from /usr/portage and /usr/portage/local/layman/sabayon . It's the first thing I'd do if I'd be you. It's there, and GPL. lazy man.

In fact, I have examined the sabayon overlay -- are you seriously trying to get us to believe that Sabayon is nothing more than an overlay? That an overlay is the only difference between it and Gentoo?

You still haven't provided a real response to the statement you quoted. What does talk about the GPL or name-calling have to do with what I said earlier?

I'm well aware of the terms of the GPL -- if you really want to, you can use our code as a base for whatever you want to, with nothing in return (bugfixes, etc.). I've already covered this. So what's new?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lxnay wrote:

Most of you, gentoo lousy developers, just talk because have a mouth and need to give it some air. :| You are not funny.


Calling developers "lousy" isn´t professional. Please think twice before posting or you may get banned.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilla wrote:
lxnay wrote:

Most of you, gentoo lousy developers, just talk because have a mouth and need to give it some air. :| You are not funny.


Calling developers "lousy" isn´t professional. Please think twice before posting or you may get banned.


Yeah, developpers kick ass...I respect the devs...because they take time to developpe what I use in a daily base :)

So respect them my friend :)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lxnay wrote:
Just a suggestion, play with diff from /usr/portage and /usr/portage/local/layman/sabayon . It's the first thing I'd do if I'd be you. It's there, and GPL. lazy man.

Er, why not just contribute the fixes back as patches on bugzilla? If they are valid they'll get applied and you could make a great case for becoming a dev; your overlay would obviously still be supported. Although, you'd need to sort your manners out; calling them lazy because they don't have time to go through your overlay is a bit pointless.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sabayon is just Gentoo with an overlay.

I've seen people rip Sabayon saying it shouldn't be supported because it is a ricer-distro with crazy flags, but that is simply a lie. Sabayon ships with very vanilla flags (-Os and march).

Either the Gentoo devs make a stand that they will only support Gentoo so long as you never use any overlays/custom builds, or they embrace Sabayon and admit it is Gentoo. Either way, don't dicker or dance around the issue. Deal with it directly.

Either way, I think Gentoo on the whole would be better off taking all these guys doing "unofficial" work and give them dev badges. Move these overlays into unstable, officially announce that there is no official support for them, and let individuals devs who work on these projects support them as they see fit. However, move them into the fold and embrace them. I think Gentoo should have an official binary install, and right now Sabayon is the best alternative for that. If the Gentoo devs embraced Sabayon, they could have some say in shaping the official/unofficial binary install method. Furthermore, if they looked at these overlays, and allowed them to be tested within a community like Sabayon, they might decide to include some of them.

Most of these "crazy" overlays are just necessary pieces of compiz-fusion, which many distros are shipping with. Quite frankly, the more publicity and use a distro gets, the more volunteers you'll get in the community. The smaller the pool of users, the smaller the pool for volunteers. It is flat-out stupid for the Gentoo community to shun many of these projects.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
Sabayon is just Gentoo with an overlay.

Exactly, and anything in that overlay is just as officially supported as any other overlay not hosted on Gentoo infrastructure. ie. Not at all. And just as unofficially supported as any other overlay. ie. To the best of our (the Gentoo community's) abilities until it becomes clear that there's a problem with the ebuild.

Quote:
<snip: no comment on this section - not enough experience with Sabayon>

Either the Gentoo devs make a stand that they will only support Gentoo so long as you never use any overlays/custom builds, or they embrace Sabayon and admit it is Gentoo. Either way, don't dicker or dance around the issue. Deal with it directly.

See my earlier, long post on the status of Sabayon and numerous devs later posts in agreement. Personally I've never heard any of the devs say anything other than "ANY overlay not hosted on Gentoo infrastructure is totally unsupported."

Quote:
Either way, I think Gentoo on the whole would be better off taking all these guys doing "unofficial" work and give them dev badges. Move these overlays into unstable, officially announce that there is no official support for them, and let individuals devs who work on these projects support them as they see fit. However, move them into the fold and embrace them.

And how would this change anything? These people can become devs if they want to be. There's absolutely nothing stopping them. Obviously they don't wish to be Gentoo devs, otherwise they would be. And under your system, how do I determine what is supported and what is unsupported under unstable? Right now, I know exactly what on my system is unsupported and what is supported.

Quote:
I think Gentoo should have an official binary install, and right now Sabayon is the best alternative for that.

Who would support it? Keep it up-to-date? What packages, keywords, CFLAGS, LDFLAGS, USE flags and profiles would packages be built for/using? Where are all the resources to build, test and distribute these binary packages going to come from?

Quote:
If the Gentoo devs embraced Sabayon, they could have some say in shaping the official/unofficial binary install method.

Er? The Gentoo devs have all the say they need to in installing Gentoo and how binary packages work. What exactly are you on about here? As for the Sabayon devs, they're perfectly welcome to become Gentoo devs or even simply submit suggestions or patches for improving the way things work.

Quote:
Furthermore, if they looked at these overlays, and allowed them to be tested within a community like Sabayon, they might decide to include some of them.

Any package can be submitted through http://bugs.gentoo.org/ for inclusion in Gentoo's main package tree. Whether it actually gets in or not depends on whether there's developer and user interest in the package.

Quote:
Most of these "crazy" overlays are just necessary pieces of compiz-fusion, which many distros are shipping with. Quite frankly, the more publicity and use a distro gets, the more volunteers you'll get in the community. The smaller the pool of users, the smaller the pool for volunteers. It is flat-out stupid for the Gentoo community to shun many of these projects.

As far as I'm aware Gentoo doesn't shun any of the overlay projects. But equally it doesn't have the resources to deal with everything under the main tree, and not everyone wants to be limited by the rules and processes that go on in a distro's main package tree. Using an overlay gives these people the freedom to do just what they want to do while developing this stuff, then when it's mature enough, if there's demand, it'll get into the main package tree. As far as I can tell, this is exactly what has happened to date with the compiz/fusion/whatever-fork-we're-using-this-month.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By stating that they will refuse to deal with any bugs by people with use Sabayon, they shun the entire user community, even if the bugs stem from core Gentoo packages.

The major difference is to be open about acknowledging that Sabayon has anything to do with Gentoo, when so far the stance has been that Sabayon has nothing to do with Gentoo. That level of alienating people doesn't encourage people to give back to the larger community.

As for who would support the binary install, when lxnay does it currently. Invite him to be a dev, make Sabayon the official binary installer, and then work with him on making sure the devs are happy with it on the whole. The install method could/should be used both for Sabayon using the overlay, as well as a vanilla Gentoo install. Quite frankly, I can't think of a single good reason why there shouldn't be a binary Gentoo install. Get people in a working system right away.

And frankly, if you're going to dismiss supporting people unless they can close to a vanilla system to begin with, then you might as well just give people that. Gentoo is a unique beast, and I imagine it is more difficult to support varied systems because of how different one can be from another once you unmask something, change your flags, use an overlay, but the community is supposed to be a strong-point of Gentoo.

Don't write your users off and treat them like dirt, or it will kill the community. Mark my words.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
Invite him to be a dev, make Sabayon the official binary installer, and then work with him on making sure the devs are happy with it on the whole.

That's not how things works around here. We don't make new devs by force.
enderandrew wrote:
Quite frankly, I can't think of a single good reason why there shouldn't be a binary Gentoo install.

Ummm... because Gentoo is not desktop-oriented? We're not in the business of creating specialized distributions, but we don't mind if someone else creates a specialized distribution based on Gentoo (at least this is my pov).
enderandrew wrote:
Don't write your users off and treat them like dirt, or it will kill the community. Mark my words.

Please, not another "Gentoo is dieing" thread. It's pathetic.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrness wrote:
enderandrew wrote:
Invite him to be a dev, make Sabayon the official binary installer, and then work with him on making sure the devs are happy with it on the whole.

That's not how things works around here. We don't make new devs by force.


I said invite, and you read force.

Please reread my post and respond appropriately.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
I said invite, and you read force.

Recruiters don't invite anyone (we are volunteers, ya know). You must satisfy 2 basic requirements for becoming Gentoo dev:
a) willing to become such
b) necessary skills in the area you want to work

My wild guess is Fabio never expressed his will to become dev.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
I said invite, and you read force.

If they want to become developers, they should try actually contributing to the project.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
By stating that they will refuse to deal with any bugs by people with use Sabayon, they shun the entire user community, even if the bugs stem from core Gentoo packages.

The major difference is to be open about acknowledging that Sabayon has anything to do with Gentoo, when so far the stance has been that Sabayon has nothing to do with Gentoo. That level of alienating people doesn't encourage people to give back to the larger community.


You appear to have totally misunderstood what has been said so far. Please re-read Genones last post and my long post previous to that one.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read Genone's post, and find it extremely reasonable.

That doesn't change the fact that I've witnessed Sabayon users turned away for support because "they weren't running Gentoo".

If they post a bug related to compiz-fusion, or anything specific to the Sabayon overlay, they should be turning to the Sabayon forums or irc room for support first, or perhaps the compiz-fusion guys. However, closing bugs out of hand because people use Sabayon is a practice I don't care for.

Quote:
If they want to become developers, they should try actually contributing to the project.


I would contend that with his overlay he has contributed a great deal. His installer isn't fantastic, but simply the fact that he created a great LiveDVD and a binary installer in the first place is huge. The LiveDVD is fantastic in everything it offers. Too bad it is horribly slow, but no one is perfect. You look at traffic on the net and DistroWatch, and you'll see Sabayon is generating far more buzz than the core Gentoo project.

Whether or not in the past you've invited people to become devs, I think you should now. If you see someone who has demonstrated a talent for working with ebuilds and overlays, someone who has an active interest in working with Gentoo, and who can help the project, is there any good reason not to contact them?

Often I find the most interesting projects in the Gentoo community come regular users in the "Unofficial" area of the forums. Why not reach out to some of these people? Encouraging and incorporating fresh blood and new ideas can only help the project. Most distros have a "development" area for testing new builds. I've never quite understood why Gentoo hasn't embraced this mentality to find new ways to improve their product.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
I would contend that with his overlay he has contributed a great deal. His installer isn't fantastic, but simply the fact that he created a great LiveDVD and a binary installer in the first place is huge. The LiveDVD is fantastic in everything it offers. Too bad it is horribly slow, but no one is perfect. You look at traffic on the net and DistroWatch, and you'll see Sabayon is generating far more buzz than the core Gentoo project.

The hard part is maintaining Gentoo, not providing the binary repository. Just compare the number of developers each distribution have and you'll see where the hard work lies.
As for the popularity of Sabayon, they have to give us credit about this. I doubt they would have same popularity if they derived Sabayon from Debian or Ubuntu instead Gentoo.
enderandrew wrote:
Whether or not in the past you've invited people to become devs, I think you should now. If you see someone who has demonstrated a talent for working with ebuilds and overlays, someone who has an active interest in working with Gentoo, and who can help the project, is there any good reason not to contact them?

The recruitment process is there for a reason. It tests the candidate's abilities *and* motivation. Lets say you promote to dev status a person capable enough but not motivated enough. After a few dozens bug fixes he/she disappears into thin air and all persons involved in his/her recruitment have spent their time in vain.
You also seem to not understand the word "volunteer". Initiative must come from the volunteer, not the other way around.
enderandrew wrote:
Often I find the most interesting projects in the Gentoo community come regular users in the "Unofficial" area of the forums. Why not reach out to some of these people? Encouraging and incorporating fresh blood and new ideas can only help the project.

Motivation, motivation, motivation... If these regular users you talk about want to become developers, they are welcome.
enderandrew wrote:
Most distros have a "development" area for testing new builds.

We have ~arch, package.mask and overlays. What else do you want?
enderandrew wrote:
I've never quite understood why Gentoo hasn't embraced this mentality to find new ways to improve their product.

Talk is cheap. If you want to improve our "product", put yourself on the line and help us becoming even better that we already are.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly when lxnay signed up to be a user rep, and created Sabayon, and put together the RR4 live CDs, he demonstrated a total lack of motivation and commitment. Your argument seems completely valid here. He has zero interest in doing any work. He's only been working steadily on Gentoo-related projects for two years that I can see, and perhaps longer.

Oh, and the major difference is this. If you run unofficial bleeding edge testing packages with another distro, you get support. You are encouraged to test these for the sake of testing. In you unmask packages, install overlays, or run with ~arch, you are chastised and told you won't get support with Gentoo. This very thread cements that. The Gentoo devs aren't going to support anything related to an overlay, rather than testing it out to see if there is anything worthwhile there.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enderandrew wrote:
Clearly when lxnay signed up to be a user rep, and created Sabayon, and put together the RR4 live CDs, he demonstrated a total lack of motivation and commitment. Your argument seems completely valid here. He has zero interest in doing any work. He's only been working steadily on Gentoo-related projects for two years that I can see, and perhaps longer.

User rep != dev. And I wasn't talking about Fabio in particular, I was talking in general.
enderandrew wrote:
Oh, and the major difference is this. If you run unofficial bleeding edge testing packages with another distro, you get support. You are encouraged to test these for the sake of testing. In you unmask packages, install overlays, or run with ~arch, you are chastised and told you won't get support with Gentoo. This very thread cements that. The Gentoo devs aren't going to support anything related to an overlay, rather than testing it out to see if there is anything worthwhile there.

You will be amazed how fast things are moving when you provide a solution to your problem, even if you use overlays or pmasked packages. We have a large pool of developers, with various degrees of knowledge. You cannot expect us to solve problems we do not understand, either because are not well defined or we lack the necessary skill to fix it.
You are simply wrong when you're saying we do not support ~arch. By definition, this is the testing environment, the place where all fixes should occur. Ergo ~arch installations should be *officially* supported.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrness wrote:
enderandrew wrote:
Clearly when lxnay signed up to be a user rep, and created Sabayon, and put together the RR4 live CDs, he demonstrated a total lack of motivation and commitment. Your argument seems completely valid here. He has zero interest in doing any work. He's only been working steadily on Gentoo-related projects for two years that I can see, and perhaps longer.

User rep != dev. And I wasn't talking about Fabio in particular, I was talking in general.


I suggested specifically that you invite him to work directly with the devs, and you mentioned how many have to demonstrate interest and kept harping about a lack of dedication.

How am I not supposed to infer when I mentioned him specifically that your response isn't suppose to relate to him?

And have you ever considered the possibility that the reason more people don't volunteer to become devs in the first place is because overlays, new technologies, testing-ground stuff is usually shot down right away, and thusly the people who want to work on such things aren't encouraged to volunteer?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I go to Walmart, buy a playstation and weld a mod chip in. It doesn't work, I go back to Walmart for support, and they cannot help as I modified the system. At which point I probably should have gone back to the mod chip provider for support."

This is the difference between an overlay and core Gentoo. If you have an overlay, you really should seek support form the overlay maker/provider. 1) They need to fix their mistakes (if this is the case) or 2) they need to demonstrate reasonably that it is a core Gentoo issue and provide feedback to Gentoo community on how to fix it. Makes it better for eveyone and acts as contributing back to the community.

In general, overlay providers should be opening feature/ebuild bugs in bugzilla to have their packages/fixes/changes added to official portage, when they are confident the main kinks are worked out - contribute back to the core Gentoo community. Hopefully, this is seen as positive and your changes get incorporated.

Everyone wins...
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 2709
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roderick wrote:
"I go to Walmart, buy a playstation and weld a mod chip in. It doesn't work, I go back to Walmart for support, and they cannot help as I modified the system. At which point I probably should have gone back to the mod chip provider for support."

This is the difference between an overlay and core Gentoo. If you have an overlay, you really should seek support form the overlay maker/provider. 1) They need to fix their mistakes (if this is the case) or 2) they need to demonstrate reasonably that it is a core Gentoo issue and provide feedback to Gentoo community on how to fix it. Makes it better for eveyone and acts as contributing back to the community.

In general, overlay providers should be opening feature/ebuild bugs in bugzilla to have their packages/fixes/changes added to official portage, when they are confident the main kinks are worked out - contribute back to the core Gentoo community. Hopefully, this is seen as positive and your changes get incorporated.

Everyone wins...

Exactly! Nice summary on both issues.

If lxnay only contributed his bugfixes back to Gentoo instead of promoting them as a reason not to use Gentoo, there wouldn't be a problem. As it is, he continues to bite the hand that feeds him, and he demands respect for it. Pfft.
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enderandrew
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Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 731

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never seen a post from lxnay saying people shouldn't use Gentoo. It is possible such a post exists, but I've sure never seen it.

Again, I'm guessing he became a Gentoo UserRep because he loathes Gentoo and has no desire to support it or help the community.
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