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kondor
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:09 pm    Post subject: Sabayon == Gentoo? Reply with quote

Hello all:

I have a question, is sabayon a flavour of gentoo that uses the same mirrors, same portage, same updates? If I install Sabayon and do an "emerge -u world" will I end up with a Gentoo machine the way I would if I used the Gentoo livecd?

I'm a little confused here. I know the difference between rpm distros like Red Hat and Suse for example. I understand they both use rpm for package management with important differences. But I cannot understand how there would be two different distros using portage (in this case Gentoo and Sabayon) if they both use the pure source code (*.tar.bz2) to build up everything. Would there be two different portage systems each maintained separately?
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amar_
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sabayon is pure Gentoo just costumized.But I found it much slower (tooks like 4 mins to boot up for me).Yes portage stuff will work as I said its pure Gentoo.But if you want real Gentoo you shouldn't search it in "based" distro,just install Gentoo :)
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Sabayon == Gentoo? Reply with quote

kondor wrote:
Would there be two different portage systems each maintained separately?

No, they just have an overlay.

The main point of Sabayon, AIUI, is to ease the usual Gentoo installation pain by providing pre-built binaries and an initial setup.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sabayon is Gentoo-based, and despite whatever they may claim on their website, it is not 100% Gentoo. As such, support requests for it on bugzilla are marked invalid or wontfix, and will go unanswered here on the forums (or else moved to Unsupported Software or OTW). This is due in part because the creator of Sabayon has admitted that he has told his users to lie about what distro they're using when they come to Gentoo IRC channels in order to get technical support.

Is it Gentoo? Close, but no cigar.
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By that standard, though, every "mature" user of Gentoo who has custom ebuilds which override those in the formal tree, is not running "100% Gentoo". Oh no, I'm tainted :)

Why say "go unanswered"? These forums are far more informal than bugzilla, so what's stopping e.g. me from answering such questions?

I would say: Is it Gentoo? Close enough.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:

Why say "go unanswered"?


If you are going to release a distro you should take responsibility for it, not pawn off the support onto someone else though lies.

Under the conditions nightmorph indicates I would cut off support too.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D-M wrote:
PaulBredbury wrote:

Why say "go unanswered"?


If you are going to release a distro you should take responsibility for it, not pawn off the support onto someone else though lies.

Under the conditions nightmorph indicates I would cut off support too.

Fine. No one is forcing anyone to answer sabayon related questions in the forums. As long as they are posted in the correct forum (OTW or US) then those who wish to try to help them can. (and no skin off your nose if they do :D)
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kondor
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Fine. No one is forcing anyone to answer sabayon related questions in the forums. As long as they are posted in the correct forum (OTW or US) then those who wish to try to help them can. (and no skin off your nose if they do :D)


So there are important differences between Sabayon and Gentoo and Sabayon, will not be 100% compatible with Gentoo even after updating all packages through emerge.
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yabbadabbadont
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kondor wrote:
Quote:

Fine. No one is forcing anyone to answer sabayon related questions in the forums. As long as they are posted in the correct forum (OTW or US) then those who wish to try to help them can. (and no skin off your nose if they do :D)


So there are important differences between Sabayon and Gentoo and Sabayon, will not be 100% compatible with Gentoo even after updating all packages through emerge.

What it means is that Sabayon provides a portage overlay, their own version of portions of the portage tree, that can make new packages available for installation or override the versions of packages that already exist in the official Gentoo portage tree. If you were to edit your /etc/make.conf and comment out any references to PORTDIR_OVERLAY that you find (and any "source" statements too), updated your portage tree with "emerge --sync", rebuilt all the installed packages on your system, then you would most likely have a "100% pure" Gentoo system. The thing is, that many Gentoo users have custom portage overlays. Technically none of them are supported. So if you are going to file a bug on Gentoo's bugzilla, you should first disable your overlay and rebuild any affected packages before doing so. (I'm sure that was as clear as mud... :D)
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desultory
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yabbadabbadont wrote:
No one is forcing anyone to answer sabayon related questions in the forums. As long as they are posted in the correct forum (OTW or US) then those who wish to try to help them can. (and no skin off your nose if they do :D)
Exactly. So far as a specific policy regarding Sabayon support topics exists, that is it.

Sabayon is not Gentoo, however similar they may be.
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mark_alec
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Other Things Gentoo to Gentoo Chat.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: sabayon is gentoo! Reply with quote

sabayon is gentoo, just customized to be just a little closer to the bleeding edge than gentoo is as is.

all distros that use portage are "gentoo based", therefore a problem (not necessarily a programming bug) or howto that works for gentoo will work for those distros as well, regardless of overlays.

gentoo is the mother of all those distros that are gentoo based.. DUH!

i am both a gentoo user and a sabayon user. the reason i use sabayon as well is because 2006.1's install sux! never could get it to work, had to do it the hard way like i have since gentoo 1.2, sabayon seems to have made anaconda work quite well. (and i also dislike gnome, kde is right for me!) dont get me wrong, immediately after a sabayon install and --sync you cant do a -uav world without problems of stuff blocking stuff and things either being masked or no longer in the portage tree, but...

i have found fixes here at gentoo that have solved probs on my sabayon box. and i've used howtos from sabayon on my gentoo box.

so in conclusion there is no difference in these distros other than customization.

i know of NOONE at sabayon that promotes lying in order to get support.

also as far as i know linux (no matter what distro) is about community, and support of one another.

so why are some of you being pious? (you know who you are.)

peace,

mrscotty99

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whats the holdup for 2007.0 distrowatch.com had it down as 02-xx-07 now its moved to march?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
By that standard, though, every "mature" user of Gentoo who has custom ebuilds which override those in the formal tree, is not running "100% Gentoo". Oh no, I'm tainted :)

And you probably won't get support for those either on bugzilla ;)
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My question was regarding the forums, not bugzilla.
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kondor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you were to edit your /etc/make.conf and comment out any references to PORTDIR_OVERLAY that you find (and any "source" statements too), updated your portage tree with "emerge --sync", rebuilt all the installed packages on your system, then you would most likely have a "100% pure" Gentoo system.


I see. That is very interesting and clear. Thank you! I'd like to learn from Sabayon how the system configures many things like auto-mounting a usb key or plugging and unplugging a network cable and recognizing it automatically.

I have always had to do those things manually. I know that is because of my lack of experience in this OS, but I think that's what makes it interesting --there is always something else to do!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
By that standard, though, every "mature" user of Gentoo who has custom ebuilds which override those in the formal tree, is not running "100% Gentoo". Oh no, I'm tainted :)
And the stuff in your overlay isn't Officially supported either. But, that doesn't mean you aren't running Gentoo. On the contrary, before something is Officially supported, it has to start somewhere. There is a big difference between using overlays vs. something such as Say-whatever-its-called.
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
it has to start somewhere.

I assume it does start with the Gentoo base. How is Sabayon not just Gentoo with an overlay?

Should all my posts be moved to Unsupported Software? :)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
Should all my posts be moved to Unsupported Software? :)
Why does the website say Sabayon Linux, and not The Sabayon Overlay for Gentoo? Why all the smoke and mirrors if its just an overlay?
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has its own installer, so is more than an overlay from that point of view. Once someone's gone to that amount of effort, surely they're allowed to give it a non-clumsy name :wink:
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried Sabayon on a test partition and find it is a mess.
package.mask and package.unmask are full with entries I can't follow.Some packages seemed to be build with --nodeps.
As a regular Gentooist being anxious having a consistent system it is disastrously.Keeping the system up-to-date via "emerge -uavDN world" is not possible or very hard.It is also not recommended by the devs,they approve upgrading via new CD-release.

I think forum questions from Sabayon users are welcomed as it affect general things.But questions as "package A isn't compiling/blocking/anything" are difficult.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
pjp wrote:
it has to start somewhere.

I assume it does start with the Gentoo base. How is Sabayon not just Gentoo with an overlay?

Should all my posts be moved to Unsupported Software? :)

I think the reason of not supporting Sabayon users is not in how close are Gentoo and Sabayon,
but with the simple statement: gentoo user/dev doesn't have to know these differencies.

If Sabayon is stated as a separate distro, even if they are as close as twins, there is no guarantee for any feature to be exact the same in both distros, so anyone here who wants to help Sabayon user should waste his time to investigate these differencies each time or track the Sabayon changes.
That is simple waste of time unless you are extensively using both (which should be indeed rare case).
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMOO, it's like when Ubuntu Started, they say that Ubuntu was the SID version of a Debian, but now I think that we can considere Ubuntu a single distribution like Debian and Gentoo.

There started from the same place, but they are on a different path.

Like Gentoo and Sabayon.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d2_racing wrote:
IMOO, it's like when Ubuntu Started, they say that Ubuntu was the SID version of a Debian, but now I think that we can considere Ubuntu a single distribution like Debian and Gentoo.

There are some the same place, but they are on a different path.

Like Gentoo and Sabayon.

Ubuntu is still Debian on training wheels. All they did was offer a simplified installer and their own repository, really, just like Sabayon did with Gentoo. The difference is that Ubuntu supports their own user base and doesn't tell them to ask Debian for support.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freelight wrote:
d2_racing wrote:
IMOO, it's like when Ubuntu Started, they say that Ubuntu was the SID version of a Debian, but now I think that we can considere Ubuntu a single distribution like Debian and Gentoo.

There are some the same place, but they are on a different path.

Like Gentoo and Sabayon.

Ubuntu is still Debian on training wheels. All they did was offer a simplified installer and their own repository, really, just like Sabayon did with Gentoo. The difference is that Ubuntu supports their own user base and doesn't tell them to ask Debian for support.


Ubuntu also has significant money behind it, so it's understandable that they are able to do their own support. A starting non-commercial distro with few donations and no corporate backers can hardly be expected to compete with that.

I'm not saying Sabayon people should lie, but if they have a problem with a package that's in the official tree, and it's not something that is directly affected by their overlay then I think they should be able to post a request. At the same time, if the Sabayon people know of a common problem that's getting misreported here they should make effort to fix that themselves and tell their users not to post here, but I'm sure there are plenty of things in Sabayon that should work the same as in gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
It has its own installer, so is more than an overlay from that point of view. Once someone's gone to that amount of effort, surely they're allowed to give it a non-clumsy name :wink:
So, they waste time duplicating effort solely for the purpose of distributing an overlay? Doesn't instill confidence.
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