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bcvegas
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting chat here. I have a friend that loves the idea of running Linux. He's 82 years old and just has an allergy to windows. He ran Fedora for a couple of years and wants an upgrade. I looked at ubuntu for him and concluded that it's a bad idea. Yes, it's an easy install. After that, there are all kinds of issues. When I was testing it, after installing about 3 packages I couldn't get much of anything to install due to failed dependencies. And these were hardly esoteric applications.

I'll stick with gentoo.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisfreet wrote:

Personally, I don't see how any of the problems you've cited so far are unique to Gentoo. There are some specific issues, just as there are specific issues with other distributions/operating systems. At lest with Gentoo we are armed with an environment that lets us fix it ourselves, assuming that's what we choose. Again, this is exactly part of the reason I started this thread.

I guess I shouldn't have answered you question: "What's your beef?"
I don't personally have a problem with security fixes because none of my Gentoo machines are accessible by anyone by me and few other sysadmins anyway. I'm only commenting that I think the community seems to be going downhill and I'm genuinely worried that the community won't handle all the unnecessary scwabbling. When I read your reply I felt it illustrated my point completely, immediately defensive and systematically argumentative - even in the face of no argument at all.
Quote:

I'll be completely honest with you, I'm just a 35 year old guy who uses Gentoo and likes it, so 1/2 the language here I see about "flaming" etc. I have no idea what it means; but it appears you've had your sensibility tested by the forums. I'm sorry for that. I don't take it that seriously. Respectfully, your posts here sound more like the argument for action against so-called "global warming"... as in, we must do something drastic now or the whole world is going to collapse 100 years down the road.

Uhhh, that's nice. I'll be honest too. I'm 30, and if you said that to my face I'd knock your block off. Don't drag in your utterly unrelated analogies and compare it to my post. I'm not suggesting any sort of crucial action - Hell, I pretty much wrote an obituary.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if someone said something to me "respectfully" I wouldn't feel to knock 'em out.

Chill mate :)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bent wrote:
Since my last post and this one, I've made some shocking discoveries about our community. Yesterday I thought we were perilously atop a slippery slope of flamewars and politics. Today I believe we're halfway down it. Today I believe Gentoo is dying. Yesterday I wondered if I could dedicate an hour a day to helping, and if it would. Today I have no doubt I'd only be fuelling a fire.

I know you don't care. Before long there'll be none of you left to not care.
Blimey, someone's feeling blue! I was worried too, but like some of the devs pointed out, we shouldn't put to much store by loud flamers. There are loads of other devs working quite happily alongside each other.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="bent"]
chrisfreet wrote:

Quote:

I'll be completely honest with you, I'm just a 35 year old guy who uses Gentoo and likes it, so 1/2 the language here I see about "flaming" etc. I have no idea what it means; but it appears you've had your sensibility tested by the forums. I'm sorry for that. I don't take it that seriously. Respectfully, your posts here sound more like the argument for action against so-called "global warming"... as in, we must do something drastic now or the whole world is going to collapse 100 years down the road.

Uhhh, that's nice. I'll be honest too. I'm 30, and if you said that to my face I'd knock your block off. Don't drag in your utterly unrelated analogies and compare it to my post. I'm not suggesting any sort of crucial action - Hell, I pretty much wrote an obituary.


I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Calm down.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just spent the last week trying various other Linux distributions including Ubuntu and the experience only reinforces my respect for the Gentoo distribution. The last three years of using Gentoo has been rewarding. I have yet to strike problem that the Gentoo community did not resolve for me. For me part of the fun is in the problems and finding the solutions. As a guy in his sixties I have to say Gentoo is an important part of keeping me mentally alert and active. I've learned a lot about Linux along the way. What a great distribution and what a great community. Its Gentoo for me.

Regards :D
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't care if you think it's complex – read a book for God's sake, learn a little.


Dude, who said Gentoo's complex? I'd say Gentoo is the most logical and sensible distro I've used so far which makes it also very easy to use.

The point being made in the original post by labrador is that Gentoo's QA sucks. And that's true! I'm using Gentoo for about 5 years now and my personal feeling is that the quality of portage and ebuilds is getting worse day by day. Few years ago I didn't have any problems updating, I ran some testing stuff and I had no problems whatsoever.

These days I run just stable and I'm scared to death every time I update something. It's not that I'm not able to fix it, I shouldn't be fixing it in the first place! That's what bothers me about Gentoo recently - _updates break things_! And that sucks :(
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I work as a Sysadmin at a medium sized company. Our boss is quite unorthodox in certain aspects, which is a good thing.
When I initially applied for the job, the boss had all the other Sysadmins take me to lunch and puncture me with questions to see if I was up to the task. (My boss doesnt have too much faith in printed credits and resumes)

Anyways, I mentioned of course that I have a bit of linux experience, which they pretty much expected. But when I mentioned that I primarily use gentoo at home, their eyes widened. They were quite impressed by that fact. Even more so once we started talking about the depth of my experience with gentoo.

Well a year has passed since then and here are some of my observations:

All our servers run gentoo. All of our hardcore programmers prefer gentoo to any other linux.
Whenever we get a new admin, he gets issued a new laptop (unless he has his own) and he has to install gentoo on his own, with a little assitance from me.
Once a new admin has installed gentoo on his own once or twice, I let them use whatever they want after that......as long as its linux. hehehe.

We often get people who apply for an internship or a trainee position, who lack any linux experience, but have good amount of general PC experience. Their linux experience is usually limited to something like Suse Linux, which in itself is not a bad thing, but in most cases they never went beyond installing it once and clicking around a bit until they broke something.

For example, we have this one guy who even was even Cisco Certified, but had next no linux experience. Once I was done with him, he was happier about his gained linux knowledge, than his Cisco credits.

Anyways, on a personal level. I still havent found a distro that I like more than Gentoo.
Sometimes I will get bored and try a different distro on my laptop, just for the hell of it. But I find that other distros are a bit too cookie-cutter and simply dont fit me and I always return to gentoo in the end.
Especially when it comes to getting things working. Laptops usually have very picky hardware. But I find that if something is supposed to work under linux, I can get it to work under Gentoo. Which I cant say for other distros.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacobs wrote:
Quote:
I don't care if you think it's complex – read a book for God's sake, learn a little.


Dude, who said Gentoo's complex? I'd say Gentoo is the most logical and sensible distro I've used so far which makes it also very easy to use.


Honestly, I agree with you. But, I think it's all relative when it comes to complexity... I don't find Gentoo more complex than other distros nowadays, especially when it comes to changing the environment or setting up for development. Things like that.

I've heard a lot of complaint about portage lately, but personally, I haven't had any issues. I've installed 3 systems lately, with generally different configurations, and haven't had any problems with portage (other than some self-induced USE flag issues, which were easily tracked down).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started using one flavor of 'nix or another way back in the 90's when I got too tired of rebooting Windoze 95 every hour or so. My first big distro was Red Hat 5. I've used Windo$e and 'nix since. (I despise Bill G. and Win, but there are games I just gotta play.) Around RH8 I got tired of being forced in one direction with a binary install system, which suprisingly got MORE restrictive as RH advanced to Fedora.

Then I switched to LFS (Linux From Scratch). I built 3 systems (Two laptops and a server) from scratch, and thought that it was the cat's meow, but for one thing. I got really tired of typing
Code:
 ./configure && make && make install
hundreds of times. I thought all was lost, and I would have to be stuck with binary or alot of repitition until I found Gentoo.

I find the best of both worlds. Ultimate flexibility as with LFS but a much less tedious install than LFS. I haven't been plagued with stability issues and am using Gentoo on 5 systems. Two of which have been running for 17 months without a single reboot. I can make a nice small system on a i586 machine for a router, which is the problem that led me away from Fedora. How an you justify requiring installing X to handle a dependency of a tool that has a perfectly good command-line tool and not give me the option of disabling the GUI? I still don't understand that one. Or, I can make a nice big pretty install on my laptop with all the bells and whistles. Virtually all of the minor problems that I've had, have been quickly resolved with a search of the forums, or a polite question to the forums if I didn't find the question answered already.

Apparently, I am now officially on the Gentoo band-wagon. I know that there's not one disto out there that will fit everyone. That's the great thing about Linux. If you don't like Gentoo, feel free to use a different distro...or take all of your ideas that you think would make a better distro, and make your own. Isn't that neat? :idea:

K
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a5friemen wrote:
...

Then I switched to LFS (Linux From Scratch). I built 3 systems (Two laptops and a server) from scratch, and thought that it was the cat's meow, but for one thing. I got really tired of typing
Code:
 ./configure && make && make install
hundreds of times. I thought all was lost, and I would have to be stuck with binary or alot of repitition until I found Gentoo.

I find the best of both worlds....


Funny you should mention LFS. I also considered using the method to install an environment just about the same time I discovered Gentoo. When I finally realized what installing Gentoo meant (vs. installing the kernel and system via the LFS way), immediately I decided Gentoo was the way to go!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisfreet wrote:
a5friemen wrote:
...

Then I switched to LFS (Linux From Scratch). I built 3 systems (Two laptops and a server) from scratch, and thought that it was the cat's meow, but for one thing. I got really tired of typing
Code:
 ./configure && make && make install
hundreds of times. I thought all was lost, and I would have to be stuck with binary or alot of repitition until I found Gentoo.

I find the best of both worlds....


Funny you should mention LFS. I also considered using the method to install an environment just about the same time I discovered Gentoo. When I finally realized what installing Gentoo meant (vs. installing the kernel and system via the LFS way), immediately I decided Gentoo was the way to go!


I came to Gentoo looking for an easier way to mess with LFS. It works so far, and its almost the same thing (minus the headaches, and the lack of a package manager...)

@a5friemen:

This is why they have aliases and scripts ;) You could have made your own Portage system.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isnogood wrote:
Hey - at least I didn`t get my e-dick wedged in 8O

In my point of view it is suffering if you have to actually sit there and watch warning messages as you update or else.If I can read after the fact what was screwed up and there is no way to recover qualifies as additional torture.

Sorry if anybody got offended - that wasn`t my intention.

I just fail to see why you would have an advanced OS on a million dollar machine that isn`t able to put out a warning and stops until instructed otherwise on a potentionally critical screwup.

Hey you are supposed to be in charge.The way this goes you are in charge of either waste your life in front of the computer catching lines or hoping for the best.


Try enotice, which saves all the emerge notices, for later review:

http://www.fmp.com/enotice/
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu:

I think anyone who really wants to learn OS installation and admin should try at least one LFS system. I learned more about the nuts-and-bolts of an install that I could anywhere else.

True, I could have made my own install system with scripts, etc. and I did, somewhat, for the downloading and unpacking of the tarballs and other tasks. There were two things that stopped me from doing so completely. First, prior to installing a package, I researched all of the ./configure options available. Some had none, some had TONS. It really made me focus on what I wanted the system to look like when complete. Second, I was focused on learning as much about OS install as I could, and wanted to focus on that rather than on scripting. I didn't mind the tediousness on the first three systems, I just didn't look forward to it as a viable maintenance option, or as a viable install option over a larger group of systems. Luckily, Gentoo works basically the same, and the work of scripting an install system had been done for me, by brighter minds than mine! :D

HMM... It's ben a while, I think I just got the itch to do another one. 8O
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I think I'm going to throw an LFS partition on my box now that you mention it, lol. Sounds like it would be a very nice experiance (and I think I've gotten enough experiance messing with Gento for it not to be a nightmare to contemplate. Prior, I was looking at LFS from cutting my teeth on SuSe 9.3 - quite a jump.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is quite a jump to LFS from a binary distro. I made the jump from Red Hat. It shouldn't be a steep learning curve from Gentoo, though. It will certainly make you appreciate portage, though.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a5friemen wrote:
It is quite a jump to LFS from a binary distro. I made the jump from Red Hat. It shouldn't be a steep learning curve from Gentoo, though. It will certainly make you appreciate portage, though.


This is really the only reason I would ever consider doing a LFS system. My Gentoo system runs so well, I get bored with it.... Ho hum.

Actually, no portage, no nothing... a little daunting, but then again, you don't have to worry about how broken portage is (I'm being facetious). With Gentoo experience, at least one can comprehend how much work it's going to be to create a system from nothing.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It also gives you a point from which you could work on your own package manager. You could take and make something like Portage, or Sourcemage's package manager, ect. Gives you a testbed to do alot of things because you are not being restricted any by some application.

Heck, you might could set up your config files in a decent place, and seperate out the apps into their correct directories.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the only problem I can say I have ever really had with Gentoo is when I have lost my network connection due to an update or by accident/misuse and can't then emerge anything as a result to cure the problem! Other than this I can safely say that once installed, Gentoo is far easier to maintain and upgrade than anything else I've tried. While I like Ubuntu due to it's quick install and ease of use, it does have many perculiarities and hard to pin down bugs.
I'd also like to mention that those who are critical of the time spent building packages fail to realise one simple fact, the faster machines get, the slower the build times become. With the exceptions of packages such as mozilla, OOo, and KDE/Gnome, most packages compile in a matter of minutes on my not particularly fast AMD64x2. This is nearly as fast as binary packages install due to the hard disk bottleneck and, by the time quad cores and the likes become common, there will be little or no difference timewise. With the dependency hell of binaries I actually think source builds are the future, what do the rest of you think?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrewwalker27 wrote:
Well the only problem I can say I have ever really had with Gentoo is when I have lost my network connection due to an update or by accident/misuse and can't then emerge anything as a result to cure the problem! Other than this I can safely say that once installed, Gentoo is far easier to maintain and upgrade than anything else I've tried. While I like Ubuntu due to it's quick install and ease of use, it does have many perculiarities and hard to pin down bugs.
I'd also like to mention that those who are critical of the time spent building packages fail to realise one simple fact, the faster machines get, the slower the build times become. With the exceptions of packages such as mozilla, OOo, and KDE/Gnome, most packages compile in a matter of minutes on my not particularly fast AMD64x2. This is nearly as fast as binary packages install due to the hard disk bottleneck and, by the time quad cores and the likes become common, there will be little or no difference timewise. With the dependency hell of binaries I actually think source builds are the future, what do the rest of you think?


I think people keep forgetting "nice".
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

metacircular-evaluator wrote:
To the original poster:
It is not the thing to read books and/or learn. It is not the thing that Gentoo is hard to setup or run.

The biggest hurdle about Gentoo is to make real stable: Just as you wrote stable as Slackware.

Why is it not possible to make a portage tree that gives always the stable packages (I mean here also
the constant version of the packages) with just the security patches backported into it. Just as Debian makes.
But for portage.
So that we can install using the dynamic configuration(use-flags) but get stable packages.

If Gentoo would do this then it will be just the king of all distros.

:(


It's far easier for me as an end user to setup a Gentoo box that's stable and secure then it is to setup any other OS. Now this doesn't happen to happen by Fiat or an Act of God/Congress/Lords but by forethought and excersising that grey matter called your brain before beginning. Yes, forethought goes a long ways towards creating a stable & secure installation of Gentoo and it must be done. :wink:

I've been using Gentoo off & on since late 2003 and have learned more about Linux in general through Gentoo then RH 5/7/9, FC, Drake/mandrivia/Debian/Slack/Suse and a whole rash of other distros. I've even given openbsd a try along with failure at any freebsd install and I'll certainly state that Linux and Gentoo in particular aint without it's warts but if you want a stable and secure setup, it's far easier then in any other distro.

An example of how stable a Gentoo box can be was the first actual working installation I got in November of 2003. Note that this was from a stage 1 installation (full bootstrap). It's uptime was in excess of 225 days before I performed any additional maintenance or installation because I planned out what I needed to begin with. Simply put, the system was a KDE box with Mplayer and a couple of other things like OpenOffice and Firefox installed and it was stable for such a long period of time because I didn't get caught up in the bleeding edge thinking. No what I wanted was a stable system with max uptimes because I'd gotten tired of the damn windows patch and repair daily syndrome. :x

Now I'm not currently running Linux as I've got a damn instructor who believes everyone of his students needs to use WMP11 including the Mac users (believe the fool is on MS's Payroll with that attitude) but I'm currently building a new box that will never see Windows on it, instead it's going to be an AMD64 version of Gentoo from the beginning and I'm even looking forward to performing a stage1 installation that's completely customized to the hardware with the software I need on it. :twisted:

On the LFS front: I've given that a try and have plans (when I find time) to completely tear portagae apart and redo it in C/C++ while making it completely modular as it should be done. Of course I don't know C from poridge but I'm willing to learn in my copious spare time. Seriously, LFS does teach you to respect the amount of work that went into portage and the flexibility of the Gentoo design and yes it does have occaisional problems but that's true of dang near anything worth doing.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gentooperson wrote:
isnogood wrote:
Hey - at least I didn`t get my e-dick wedged in 8O

In my point of view it is suffering if you have to actually sit there and watch warning messages as you update or else.If I can read after the fact what was screwed up and there is no way to recover qualifies as additional torture.

Sorry if anybody got offended - that wasn`t my intention.

I just fail to see why you would have an advanced OS on a million dollar machine that isn`t able to put out a warning and stops until instructed otherwise on a potentionally critical screwup.

Hey you are supposed to be in charge.The way this goes you are in charge of either waste your life in front of the computer catching lines or hoping for the best.


Try enotice, which saves all the emerge notices, for later review:

http://www.fmp.com/enotice/


I already told everybody that I know about those little apps that are of no use whatsoever.
To read why the system is borked in a log after_the_fact_that_it_is_borked is not my idea of package management.

To stir the flames up a bit:

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20070312#future
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isnogood wrote:
gentooperson wrote:
isnogood wrote:
Hey - at least I didn`t get my e-dick wedged in 8O

In my point of view it is suffering if you have to actually sit there and watch warning messages as you update or else.If I can read after the fact what was screwed up and there is no way to recover qualifies as additional torture.

Sorry if anybody got offended - that wasn`t my intention.

I just fail to see why you would have an advanced OS on a million dollar machine that isn`t able to put out a warning and stops until instructed otherwise on a potentionally critical screwup.

Hey you are supposed to be in charge.The way this goes you are in charge of either waste your life in front of the computer catching lines or hoping for the best.


Try enotice, which saves all the emerge notices, for later review:

http://www.fmp.com/enotice/


I already told everybody that I know about those little apps that are of no use whatsoever.
To read why the system is borked in a log after_the_fact_that_it_is_borked is not my idea of package management.

To stir the flames up a bit:

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20070312#future


Decent article. On to the topic at hand:

enotice is outdated. Elog is what is used now. If you think they are "useless", then maybe you should just run Debian - your attitude would fit in just fine.

Generally from everything I have experianced a borked system is YOUR fault. If it truely is the packages fault, then you can submit a bugreport. Chances are you have heard that a dozen times by now. If you want to run a long emerge, then start ELOG and run a decent script to handle emerge the way you want it to. There are some simple one-liners out there that will do the job, and if you don't like that, then start submitting patches.

As for the "those little apps that are of no use whatsoever" bit, then fix it yourself. I hate people with the whole "It doesn't work out of the box, therefor it must be broke" attitude. No one ever said Gentoo never needed user intervention, and you have plenty of chances to fsck up your system yourself. Don't like the way things are handled, either start giving constructive critisism that doesn't remind people of ciaranm, or stop trolling before you get banned.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all: I really couldn't care less about being banned from the forum.The discussions here only revolve about how great gentoo is while there are issues that nobody wants to ack.Telling a mantra how anybody that has a broken system is a incompetent dumbass that ought to fix borked stuff that is even known himself ain't going to fix things.

If you might be able to being bothered to look at the original posts I did on the first page of this thread I'd like to see how that would be trolling.

Doesn't anybody get what I am saying? Ok - last try:

If you emerge packages you can have all the logging tools you want to tell you why things are broken after the fact they are.
It would make sense to have a mechanism in place that alerts you before and stops the process for known problems.

Whats so bad about that???

Somebody call a mod to ban me please - can't take it anymore.

As for being cia* evil twin - don't really see the family resemblance.
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jonnevers
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isnogood wrote:
First of all: I really couldn't care less about being banned from the forum.The discussions here only revolve about how great gentoo is while there are issues that nobody wants to ack.Telling a mantra how anybody that has a broken system is a incompetent dumbass that ought to fix borked stuff that is even known himself ain't going to fix things.

you really don't pay attention, eh? there are tons of threads putting down gentoo for every reason under the sun. At worst the responses are "take a step back, catch your breathe, and get some perspective".

but whatever, you are the second person in two days to give a rant and finish the post by saying "ban me now". if you need to be banned because you "can't take it anymore"... then "get some perspective" and put your energy to some constructive criticism.
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