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blk_jack
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Sick of Gentoo Reply with quote

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not so much sick of Gentoo in particular, but Linux as a whole. I'll give a little backstory so you can see where I'm coming from here.

I've been running Linux exclusively since summer of '97. Back then I was sick of getting WinNuked on IRC and also had a lot of time on my hands and a burning desire to better myself with computers. I had a vague interest in computer programming and system administration, and my [IRC] friends would always go on and on about BSD and Linux to the point where I just HAD to.

So I switched to Slackware! I used Slackware until May 2002 when at which point I switched to Gentoo. Gentoo is by far the most efficient and intelligent Linux distribution I've ever used, and I do love it dearly.

But I'm sick of it! I'm sick of having to emerge, and I'm sick of fixing quirks with X Windows. I'm sick of waiting years to have any sort of decent composite support, and I'm sick of having to use crap like Gnome and KDE when I just want things to WORK. Ever since I saw Mac OS X I wanted my desktop to look and act like that. I wanted it to be easy and pretty and wonderful. But it seems as the years go by things don't really progress much. I used to use gDesklets, but then the realization that they weren't really that great sunk in. They weren't AS pretty as I wanted them to be, and they were bloated and most of them seemed to be missing a few features I wanted.

So now I run XFCE4, and it's alright, I guess. I have to do more work than I'd like to customize it, and it really isn't all that great to look at, even with the most magical themes you've ever laid your eyes on.

I hate to say it, but if I could I would totally load up Mac OS X on my PC. Everything I want in Linux they've had for years now, and it just keeps getting better. I'm a computer programmer (web programming), and a systems administrator for a small company, but that kind of work can easily be done in Mac OS X. When I'm not using my PC for work, I'm using it for very little else. Web browsing, music playing, watching television shows and the occasional game.

Does anybody else feel this way? I can't possibly be alone! I know the typical response would be "well if you want this or that, why don't YOU add it. It's all free and you have the audacity to complain and bla bla bla". But I know all that, and I've considered it, but that still doesn't make me *not* sick of all this.

Why hasn't it gotten to the point where things just work easier? I mean truly easier? What gives?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeh, sometimes i share your feelings. A computer is for working (and *ehem* gaming) and not for error-chasing.

All that fiddling, browsing throu (hopefully existing) documentation, googling for tips,... puts a lot of strain to my nerves.

I had to switch from KDE to Gnome because the gimp did not work properly in KDE. I only found this solution per luck.

Or lately i tried to make my Hauppauge-350 TV-Card working with ivtv an mythtv. I gave myself a time budget of a few hours. You may have guessed allready, i did not succeed. The most tedious thing was how to setup channels. I found a lot of tipps and tricks and howtos provided by some nice guys but no comprehensive walthrough to mak it work within say a hour.
The frustrating thing is that i know it can work. All the programms are there but configuration is just a mess.

The mentioned TV-Card worked in Windows within 2 minutes. Dont hit me. I know this is the fault of the manufactor (Hauppauge) which does not care to support Linux.

On the other side i do not want to face a serious problem in Windows because Windows is very hard to repair. Here is one of the strong points especially of Gentoo. Because of its clear and simple structure a reinstall in case of problems it but rarely necessary.

But i definitely would like a better support of multimedia devices in Linux.

I sometimes think that develpoment stopps to early esp. in Open-Source development. It is not sufficient that any particular application runs without errors. This is only the first step. The next step ist to provide a means of configuration which encloses not only the application itself but also the programms/packages which are required to make the application usable.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Sick of Gentoo Reply with quote

blk_jack wrote:
Why hasn't it gotten to the point where things just work easier? I mean truly easier? What gives?


Simply because everything gets more complex and advanced to make things fancy for people like you that obviously are not satisfied at all with things that just work and need always the latest gimmicks. Gentoo is a prime example of giving the user full control over almost all options, but the more options you got, the more knowledge/reading and tweaking is needed to get the result you like. If you can't live with this, then pay the price and buy Mac OS X and a Mac or whatever you think come closest to what you're expecting.
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's already an x86 operating system for the Just Works(tm) crowd, its called Microsoft Windows XP, and we see how well that works there.. As for Aqua eyecandy.. my $PS1 variable looks better. Nothing in life is simple or straight forward, we have to live with an inperfect world because perfect is unobtainable anyway, nobody will ever be happy, there's always something else that can be tweaked, or changed, or made better, or removed.. If people did as much time addressing issues than whining about them we might get somewhere. :P
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
If people did as much time addressing issues than whining about them we might get somewhere. :P


Do you honestly think this is the reason why things aren't easier?

I think all you need to do is look at a project like e17 and you can come to far more intelligent conclusions about why Linux applications are generally somewhat confusing and troublesome.

Are you guys putting any thought into these responses (with the exception of the first one) or are you just seeing red after you read a post putting down your beloved operating system?

I switched away from Windows in 1997. I've used it in various capacities on other people's machines and there's a reason why I didn't mention it. Using Windows obviously isn't an option, and in my experience, it really doesn't "just work" and I find it much more difficult to work with than something like Mac OS X.

I have everything I want working in Linux. I have my TV card, I have an mp3 player I love (Rhythmbox), I have a web browser I love (Galeon), I have an email application I adore (Evolution), and I use the terminal for everything, no GUI file manipulation for me thanks. But that's not my point. My point isn't that I keep wanting "more". I want less, damn it. I want less hassle, I want things to be more intuitive and less bloated. I run into some kind of semi-crippling problem on an almost monthly basis as a result of updating my packages. Something breaks or something changes in a way that it causes me hours of headache trying to find a solution.

Maybe it's because I'm a Linux desktop POWER user? Power user in the sense that I have to have it all. I want eye candy, I want speed, I want functionality, and these days it seems I want ease of use. Of course I love having everything customizable and complete control over every package and module my system loads, but is it really worth the years of constant annoyance?

Believe it or not, I'm not looking for responses in the vein of "Well I love my console! Screw you if you want something other than a CLI because lynx does it for me and so does irssi and screen and bla bla". Ultimately I'd like to hear from other people who share similar experiences and who are more or less fed up.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Sick of Gentoo Reply with quote

anello wrote:
Gentoo is a prime example of giving the user full control over almost all options, but the more options you got, the more knowledge/reading and tweaking is needed to get the result you like. If you can't live with this, then pay the price and buy Mac OS X and a Mac or whatever you think come closest to what you're expecting.

Annelo's answer is probably the best answer you are gonna get. Reading your story it seems you want to have the newest/best. Gentoo gives you all these options too tweak and if you are a tweaker this will mean you spent a lot of time on this. OSX will give you no options to tweak, so might actually keep you happy, but I think that within a month you will be frustrated, because you hit a wall of untweakability.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Sick of Gentoo Reply with quote

BlackEdder wrote:
anello wrote:
Gentoo is a prime example of giving the user full control over almost all options, but the more options you got, the more knowledge/reading and tweaking is needed to get the result you like. If you can't live with this, then pay the price and buy Mac OS X and a Mac or whatever you think come closest to what you're expecting.

Annelo's answer is probably the best answer you are gonna get. Reading your story it seems you want to have the newest/best. Gentoo gives you all these options too tweak and if you are a tweaker this will mean you spent a lot of time on this. OSX will give you no options to tweak, so might actually keep you happy, but I think that within a month you will be frustrated, because you hit a wall of untweakability.


Perhaps, but that still doesn't address my problem with Linux applications themselves.

anello wrote:
If you can't live with this, then pay the price and buy Mac OS X and a Mac or whatever you think come closest to what you're expecting.


Now that I think about it, I think THAT response sums up why it seems not much gets done. Typical "if you don't like it here, go back to Russia!" train of thought. Telling somebody to "live with it or get lost" doesn't accomplish anything.

It seems that a lot of people can't grasp the concept of having an application be intuitive, simple and have it Work Right and also have the capacity for "advanced" configuration & options.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of Gentoo Reply with quote

blk_jack wrote:
Now that I think about it, I think THAT response sums up why it seems not much gets done. Typical "if you don't like it here, go back to Russia!" train of thought. Telling somebody to "live with it or get lost" doesn't accomplish anything.

No. That response means: you seem to want to turn linux into os-x. We feel more at home with the linux way of doing things, so leave us in peace and go use mac osx if you like their way of doing things that much. (Just translating it for you)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't have your cake and eat it at the same time, OS X is a bastardisation of UNIX.. just because it has a bit of eye candy and 'easy to use', doesn't mean its worth having on Linux. And when I said 'If people spent more time resolving issues rather than whining about them then we would have progress', I ment it litterly, I see so many people just complain and complain, and these people are the least likely to sit down with pen to paper and devise a solution to their problem, do the work, write the code, and submit a patch/start a new project, and quite frankly its annoying. Nothing just works in the real world.. If you car doesn't perform the way you like it, do you not have to strip it down and rebuild it the way you want it?.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two extremes in development methods:
1) Linux/OSS
Development is started, product is released as soon as basic functions are working.

2) Mac OSX
Development is started, product is released when it is completely finished.

Both methods have their pros and cons, but you can't have the pros from both methods at the same time. One of the cons of the OSS method is that projects are often in a semi finished/difficult to use state for a long time. It seems you don't like this con. Ofcourse there are also differences between distros. Gentoo includes anything even if it is only half working. Ubuntu will include mostly finished products.

Reading your post, you seem to want to use gentoo for its pros (every new project is included quickly), but you don't like the con that comes with it (most of these new projects are not easy to use yet). You can't have both though.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of Gentoo Reply with quote

BlackEdder wrote:
blk_jack wrote:
Now that I think about it, I think THAT response sums up why it seems not much gets done. Typical "if you don't like it here, go back to Russia!" train of thought. Telling somebody to "live with it or get lost" doesn't accomplish anything.

No. That response means: you seem to want to turn linux into os-x. We feel more at home with the linux way of doing things, so leave us in peace and go use mac osx if you like their way of doing things that much. (Just translating it for you)


ditto. Besides that gentoo is probably the worst choice for blk_jack then, because everything you want has to be done (configured) by your self to function the way you want it to, but on the other side gentoo is the right choice because you can configure it like almost no other linux to make it a OS X lookalike. So I think blk_jack is a little confused about what he wants. Like BlackEdder said, there are two extrems and you got to stick with one of them. Either you pay or you invest your time. Thats the way it is ...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you wanted a desktop OS/desktop just works, one must ask why you bothered with Gentoo or slackware. Although I love Gentoo, some people like Texstar have done great work with an out of the box Linux system with PCLinuxOS. No configuring and everything pretty much works: binary video drivers, VPN tools, unified control panel, eye candy, very slick.

As for the flashy GUI stuff, its hard to critisize Linux. Although Mac OS X has it, unreleased Windows Vista is just getting it and X support is rapidly improving. You have to remember that your talking about paid commercial development against more or less free developer contributions. Lets not forget that developers also have to deal with less than stellar hardware manufacturer support also!

I have Mac OS X installed on a partition on my AMD64 PC and yes it is very nice. Whether you like the Apple dock or not, I have always thought the Mac OS GUIs have been very clean and easy to use. Things for the most part appear and act the way you would think they would/should.

The two main reason I stick with Linux are stability and choice. Right now both Windows and Mac OS are more stable than when I originally switched. But with both those commercial OSes you are under control of both companies. Very easily either can force you to use only specific apps or force an unwanted or unneeded upgrade. Basically I like the choice to use or try what I want at any time and that me as a user can help decide what "becomes" the standard of a specific app on Linux by using it and increasing acceptable, not being told by a company this is it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of Gentoo Reply with quote

blk_jack wrote:
Now that I think about it, I think THAT response sums up why it seems not much gets done. Typical "if you don't like it here, go back to Russia!" train of thought. Telling somebody to "live with it or get lost" doesn't accomplish anything.


Saying "I've had it, this all sucks" doesn't accomplish a lot either, IMO. I don't reckon I see the part where you asked for help on anything.

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Headrush wrote:

I have Mac OS X installed on a partition on my AMD64 PC...


How did you get OS X on a PC 8O!? I thought they only worked on macs!

Also, "Just Works" may be and usually isn't all that it's cracked-up to be. For instance, Windows makes everything "just work." But sometimes it "just works" with the wrong drivers, crappy settings or damaged software. Not to mention lack of control! I love being in control of my computer, and knowing everything it's doing and what it can do... Linux is perfect for me. However, some people don't want to have to go through all of that, sometimes risking unfavorable configurations for ease-of-use. I don't use Ubuntu or SuSE for said reason. I would rather "put up with" Gentoo than accept what an automated script thinks is "right" for my system.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sonicbhoc wrote:
Headrush wrote:

I have Mac OS X installed on a partition on my AMD64 PC...


How did you get OS X on a PC 8O!? I thought they only worked on macs!

Nope. Search the Internet, works great too. (Hint: Search Maxxus)

sonicbhoc wrote:
Also, "Just Works" may be and usually isn't all that it's cracked-up to be. For instance, Windows makes everything "just work." But sometimes it "just works" with the wrong drivers, crappy settings or damaged software. Not to mention lack of control! I love being in control of my computer, and knowing everything it's doing and what it can do... Linux is perfect for me. However, some people don't want to have to go through all of that, sometimes risking unfavorable configurations for ease-of-use. I don't use Ubuntu or SuSE for said reason. I would rather "put up with" Gentoo than accept what an automated script thinks is "right" for my system.

The "Just works" Linux distros generally don't remove your ability to change or choice, but give you an initial working setup that you are free to modify and change. Its not quite the same as the Windows wizards style of doing things.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

get a Mac.

All the benefits of Unix and top quality software and hardware design.

Don't get me wrong, I like Linux, especially Gentoo, and will continue to run it on servers and multipurpose machines, but for desktops, Macs are the way to go.

The only thing I miss is parts of the kernel (Mach's resource locking doesn't make it the most efficient kernel). OS X is still no BeOS, but its getting close ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buy_a_Mac++

If it comes with the features you want and you can pay the price, go after it.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use something else. Best wishes.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I wonder if people praising OSX eye-candy actually ever used a Mac more than 3 minutes straight. I guess not. They'd have realized it's not *that* sexy. Also, once you start actually using your desktop, the fact that the Finder sucks even more than xffm (!!!!) is somehow a shocking shock.

So, really, I think we have to agree on this : Modern desktop computing is not ready for you. Come back in a few years. Gifted people are working on it.

PS: This is in no way cynical (or however it's spelt).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys got me wrong. I don't want to stop using Gentoo--I love Gentoo very much!

I'm just sick of the hassle that it seems a lot of Linux applications eventually bring. I think I'm mostly just concerned with how often things magically "break". I know Linux very well and I can always fix whatever problems arise, but the weight of it after all these years is starting to grow, I think.

In terms of usability, my major complaints are with X and the various window managers. I've found a lot of great core applications that make my life a lot easier and I'm happy with that.

As I said before, replying with "get the hell outta here! how DARE you complain" doesn't do anything for me. Maybe I'm expecting too much, I don't know; it just seems that after all these years I don't see any major milestones being made (in regards to X & all the window managers). For example I think Firefox is an amazing application that has such incredible development, and I respect the Mozilla team very much.

The thing is, I don't want to sound like some whiny bitch who wants everything to work prefect and expects no problems. I do expect problems and I get over them. I just don't really see too much progress being made with a lot of very important aspects of Linux desktop use.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Headrush wrote:
The two main reason I stick with Linux are stability and choice. Right now both Windows and Mac OS are more stable than when I originally switched. But with both those commercial OSes you are under control of both companies. Very easily either can force you to use only specific apps or force an unwanted or unneeded upgrade. Basically I like the choice to use or try what I want at any time and that me as a user can help decide what "becomes" the standard of a specific app on Linux by using it and increasing acceptable, not being told by a company this is it.


Best response yet! I think maybe I do need to actually sit down and use Mac OS X and see for myself. Maybe I'm over-hyping it and taking for granted the freedom of choice (and other things) with Linux. I agree with your points on commercial development vs. volunteer development though... as well as your point on hardware manufacturers.

As for applications in Mac OS X... I was under the impression that there were a lot of open source projects being worked on for it? Wouldn't that offer more choice and a Linux-type environment with a stable and clean desktop manager?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: I wonder Reply with quote

I wonder what it is you wish to achieve with a post such as the one you have written here. This does not contribute to anything gentoo-related - you just simply state your "being sick" of everything regarding gentoo or linux.

The subject of this post is, sick of Gentoo. Yet, later you say, 'well it's not really gentoo, it's linux as a whole'. Well, you know what, I am sick of people complaining about stuff instead of thinking for themselves!! With all of the things you said what do you expect; do you expect us to send you some flowers with the text 'sorry you're sick - hope you feel better soon, PS buy a Mac'...??

Come on man, get real, this stuff doesn't contribute and just annoys the heck out of a lot of people that do like Gentoo c.q. Linux. Just because you have some kind of weird identity crisis it doesn't mean that the whole community has to change. You could have just decided to choose something else, without the complaining. There's plenty of alternative stuff out there... and you know it...!

So, to conclude:
blk_jack wrote:
Why hasn't it gotten to the point where things just work easier? I mean truly easier? What gives?

Answer: a true lack of self-awareness.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I'm not sick of "everything". Hardly.

How am I not thinking for myself? I'm putting my thoughts on the subject in this post, and wondering if people feel the same. I expect conversation, not flowers or a Mac. Is that really hard to grasp? The idea of exchanging points of view on Linux desktop use?

The only reason it doesn't contribute is because there are people who refuse to see my point of view. Or justify bloated and poorly designed software with "well it's free, if you don't like it fuck off".

The fact of the matter is that there isn't a lot of alternative "stuff" out there. There are very few options for your average user who is sick of years of desktop computing and wants something that's powerful and intuitive.

Nowhere did I ask or demand that the community change, that's a ridiculous notion and I have no idea where you got it from. How is being sick of fixing a broken system every month or two and being sick of certain programs development progress an "identity crisis"? I've been using Linux for almost a decade and now I'm telling you what I think about using it as a desktop OS.

As I said before--all I want are people's opinions that relate to the particular gripes I have with desktop computing. Not suggestions about how I can "go fuck myself".
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blk_jack, people seem to get too emotional in these threads, don't let it get to you. :)

I never liked the if you don't like it leave attitude. The little troubles with Linux/Gentoo can be frustrating at times and I think that titles like yours convey that. Although I have no plan of leaving Gentoo, it is completely acceptable to try other OSes like XP and Mac OS X and noting good things in them that would improve Linux. Fact is, some OSes/distros do things better than Linux and Gentoo. This "don't copy XP, invent something new" attitude is more political than anything else. If there is a better way to do something and it can be accomplished in Gentoo/on Linux, copy it.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putting "Sick of Gentoo" as thread title doesn't help much.
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