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| Would (did) you switch back to portage after installing paludis? |
| 1. I stay with paludis |
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61% |
[ 257 ] |
| 2. I switched back to portage |
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38% |
[ 161 ] |
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| Total Votes : 418 |
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Paapaa
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Joined: 14 Aug 2005
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Location: Finland
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 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| ArneBab wrote: | | People running around with signs in the style of "Paludis, the better package manager" don't really help keeping a community together. . |
Which community? "Portage user community"? Why do you think it is a bad thing there are many Paludis users and many Portage users? Why would it be better to have just one single PM (Portage) user community? Could you elaborate?
I disagree. I think it is very good to be able to use not just one PM but several which all follow the standards. I think competition is a good thing - at least in this case. And I'm still "part of Gentoo community", whatever that means...
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pigeon768
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Joined: 02 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| juantxorena wrote: | | 3.- The overlay management is great. (Is only great when you have two ebuilds with the same name and version in diferent overlays, something that shouldn't happen) |
"Shouldn't" and "Doesn't" are, unfortunately, entirely different things. There are many aspects of paludis I find absolutely enraging, and to be honest I'm looking for reasons to stop using it, but its overlay management is, for me at least, absolutely essential.
Oh, also, my anecdotal experience is that paludis is much slower at dependency resolution than portage. Maybe my paludis caches are jacked up and it's silently skipping any cached info, on account of paludis' "don't create required directories or fix broken permissions" policy.
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alistair
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| pigeon768 wrote: | | juantxorena wrote: | | 3.- The overlay management is great. (Is only great when you have two ebuilds with the same name and version in diferent overlays, something that shouldn't happen) |
"Shouldn't" and "Doesn't" are, unfortunately, entirely different things. There are many aspects of paludis I find absolutely enraging, and to be honest I'm looking for reasons to stop using it, but its overlay management is, for me at least, absolutely essential.
Oh, also, my anecdotal experience is that paludis is much slower at dependency resolution than portage. Maybe my paludis caches are jacked up and it's silently skipping any cached info, on account of paludis' "don't create required directories or fix broken permissions" policy. |
Or maybe it is the fact that paludis handles dependency resolution in a far better ( aka more correct ) but possible slower ( not that I particularly agree with it being slower ) way.
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ArneBab
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 299
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | ArneBab wrote: | | People running around with signs in the style of "Paludis, the better package manager" don't really help keeping a community together. . |
Which community? "Portage user community"? Why do you think it is a bad thing there are many Paludis users and many Portage users? Why would it be better to have just one single PM (Portage) user community? Could you elaborate?. |
The Gentoo community which suddenly quabbles over which package manager is better.
Just imagine what people would say if I'd use "christ is useless. Atheists are better." as signature. It isn't important what I think about it. What matters is that if people would decide not to ignore it, the flames could damage the community.
I think it would be better to for example write paludis solutions to common problems in the forum instead of making paludis-only overlays, where you tie things people want to the tool you use, even thought that's not technically necessary.
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ArneBab
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Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: Paludis size and portage + python size |
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Since I recently grew interested in usage in embedded systems ( http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-754478.html ), I just checked the size of paludis alone and the size of python + portage.
Result:
| Code: | # du -hs /var/packages/sys-apps/paludis-0.36.0.tar
33M /var/packages/sys-apps/paludis-0.36.0.tar
# du -hs /var/packages/sys-apps/portage-2.1.4.5.tar
11M /var/packages/sys-apps/portage-2.1.4.5.tar
# du -hs /var/packages/dev-lang/python-2.5.4-r2.tar
48M /var/packages/dev-lang/python-2.5.4-r2.tar |
Result: Paludis alone takes about half the space of python + portage.
If you need python anyway, using portage instead of paludis saves you 22MiB of space.
If you don't need python, using paludis saves you about 26MiB, but it's likely that the programs you use instead of python programs will take more space than the python versions.
Now it would be interesting if it would be easily possible to package a python which only includes the parts of the standard library which portage requires - a dedicated portage-python. It should be possible to substantially reduce the size of portage+python that way.
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tanderson
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ArneBab wrote: | | Paapaa wrote: | | ArneBab wrote: | | People running around with signs in the style of "Paludis, the better package manager" don't really help keeping a community together. . |
Which community? "Portage user community"? Why do you think it is a bad thing there are many Paludis users and many Portage users? Why would it be better to have just one single PM (Portage) user community? Could you elaborate?. |
I think it would be better to for example write paludis solutions to common problems in the forum instead of making paludis-only overlays, where you tie things people want to the tool you use, even thought that's not technically necessary. |
What is a "paludis solution to common problems"? That's sort of vague and unnatainable.
How is making a repository that *people can choose to use* that has features that only paludis supports tying anyone down. The people who did that made a decision to use features that made the packages much cleaner(I've seen them, I know) without built_with_use stuff and ability to track -scm packages and you're giving them grief because they did what made things easiest for those that used it? The people who made that decision weren't even paludis devs, You're just trying to troll paludis here...
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tanderson
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Posts: 193
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Paludis size and portage + python size |
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So use portage for your embedded stuff. Most gentoo users don't put their systems on embedded machines(the portage tree itself is >500Mb), so it really becomes irrelevant.
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ArneBab
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 299
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: | | What is a "paludis solution to common problems"? That's sort of vague and unnatainable. |
What I mean is:
- Which problem do portage users have that paludis users don't have.
And then just put one of those in your sig.
An example (from the view of people who don't like Python - which doesn't include me):
- Paludis: Gentoo without Python
Another one:
- Paludis: Overlay management with explicit package selection.
| Quote: | | How is making a repository that *people can choose to use* that has features that only paludis supports tying anyone down. The people who did that made a decision to use features that made the packages much cleaner(I've seen them, I know) without built_with_use stuff and ability to track -scm packages and you're giving them grief because they did what made things easiest for those that used it? The people who made that decision weren't even paludis devs, You're just trying to troll paludis here... |
No. I'm just writing about a major gripe I had. Using Paludis was a pain for me, so I decided to stay away from the overlay, even though I desperately wanted to use it. The decision not to use it was in the end, that the overlay was for KDE, and if I had wanted to switch back to portage I'd have had to also switch back to KDE 3 (I began using KDe 4 as production system very early).
That turned the decision from "which PM to use" to "do I dare to solid-set myself on Paludis". Answer was "no, not after the replies I got in paludis IRC and the stuff I read on the website.
I agree that it wasn't the fault of the paludis devs, that the overlay was such huge. Still it left a very sour taste to experience that the answers from those devs weren't really good in encouraging me, that I'd be happy with paludis in the long term.
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energyman76b
Advocate
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 2009
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Paludis size and portage + python size |
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| ArneBab wrote: | Since I recently grew interested in usage in embedded systems ( http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-754478.html ), I just checked the size of paludis alone and the size of python + portage.
Result:
| Code: | # du -hs /var/packages/sys-apps/paludis-0.36.0.tar
33M /var/packages/sys-apps/paludis-0.36.0.tar
# du -hs /var/packages/sys-apps/portage-2.1.4.5.tar
11M /var/packages/sys-apps/portage-2.1.4.5.tar
# du -hs /var/packages/dev-lang/python-2.5.4-r2.tar
48M /var/packages/dev-lang/python-2.5.4-r2.tar |
Result: Paludis alone takes about half the space of python + portage.
If you need python anyway, using portage instead of paludis saves you 22MiB of space.
If you don't need python, using paludis saves you about 26MiB, but it's likely that the programs you use instead of python programs will take more space than the python versions.
Now it would be interesting if it would be easily possible to package a python which only includes the parts of the standard library which portage requires - a dedicated portage-python. It should be possible to substantially reduce the size of portage+python that way. |
and this looks so much better than portage?
paludis:
COMMON_DEPEND="
>=app-admin/eselect-1.0.2
>=app-admin/eselect-news-20071201
>=app-shells/bash-3
inquisitio? ( dev-libs/pcre++ )
python-bindings? ( >=dev-lang/python-2.4 >=dev-libs/boost-1.33.1-r1 )
qa? ( dev-libs/pcre++ >=dev-libs/libxml2-2.6 app-crypt/gnupg )
ruby-bindings? ( >=dev-lang/ruby-1.8 )
xml? ( >=dev-libs/libxml2-2.6 )"
DEPEND="${COMMON_DEPEND}
doc? (
|| ( >=app-doc/doxygen-1.5.3 <=app-doc/doxygen-1.5.1 )
media-gfx/imagemagick
python-bindings? ( dev-python/epydoc dev-python/pygments )
ruby-bindings? ( dev-ruby/syntax dev-ruby/allison )
)
dev-util/pkgconfig"
RDEPEND="${COMMON_DEPEND}
sys-apps/sandbox"
# Keep this as a PDEPEND. It avoids issues when Paludis is used as the
# default virtual/portage provider.
PDEPEND="
vim-syntax? ( >=app-editors/vim-core-7 )"
portage:
python_dep=">=dev-lang/python-2.4"
DEPEND="${python_dep}
!build? ( >=sys-apps/sed-4.0.5 )
doc? ( app-text/xmlto ~app-text/docbook-xml-dtd-4.4 )
epydoc? ( >=dev-python/epydoc-2.0 )"
RDEPEND="${python_dep}
!build? ( >=sys-apps/sed-4.0.5
>=app-shells/bash-3.2_p17
>=app-admin/eselect-news-20071201 )
elibc_FreeBSD? ( sys-freebsd/freebsd-bin )
elibc_glibc? ( >=sys-apps/sandbox-1.2.17 !mips? ( >=sys-apps/sandbox-1.2.18.1-r2 ) )
elibc_uclibc? ( >=sys-apps/sandbox-1.2.17 !mips? ( >=sys-apps/sandbox-1.2.18.1-r2 ) )
>=app-misc/pax-utils-0.1.17
selinux? ( >=dev-python/python-selinux-2.16 )"
PDEPEND="
!build? (
>=net-misc/rsync-2.6.4
userland_GNU? ( >=sys-apps/coreutils-6.4 )
|| ( >=dev-lang/python-2.5 >=dev-python/pycrypto-2.0.1-r6 )
)"
btw. how does paludis rsync without rsync?
and boost - that is nice...
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tanderson
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Posts: 193
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, paludis only needs sandbox, bash, pkgconfig, and eselect on a base system....so much bloat.
The other dependencies are for extra features and goodies you might want(USE flags guys, it means you don't have to pull in all those dependencies). Boost is for python-bindings _only_, and there is really no use for the python bindings(the flag is off by default fyi).
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energyman76b
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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and eselect, which pulls in coreutils. So the depends parts are misleading. And what is that 'inquisito' stuff? And what about qa? xml? why do I want that - or not?
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| AidanJT wrote: |
...because pro-lifers (especially the catholic variety) are sick, depraved, satanic ....
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...'people' - had to clean it up to not be offensive...
"The secret of politics? Make a good treaty with Russia." |
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tanderson
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | and eselect, which pulls in coreutils. So the depends parts are misleading. And what is that 'inquisito' stuff? And what about qa? xml? why do I want that - or not? |
The use flag descriptions tell you everything you need to make a decision on whether you want them or not...
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energyman76b
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Posts: 2009
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | and eselect, which pulls in coreutils. So the depends parts are misleading. And what is that 'inquisito' stuff? And what about qa? xml? why do I want that - or not? |
The use flag descriptions tell you everything you need to make a decision on whether you want them or not... |
'enables the search client' - so it is a must have thingy....
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| AidanJT wrote: |
...because pro-lifers (especially the catholic variety) are sick, depraved, satanic ....
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...'people' - had to clean it up to not be offensive...
"The secret of politics? Make a good treaty with Russia." |
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Paapaa
l33t
Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 955
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ArneBab wrote: | | The Gentoo community which suddenly quabbles over which package manager is better. |
You mean the same way as KDE/Gnome/XFCE/Whatever is splitting the Gentoo community? Or all the various instant messaging clients are breaking Gentoo apart? I don't think so... I think Paludis, Portage and pkgcore users are all part of Gentoo community. Period. And having alternatives is a good thing - just like in those examples I gave above.
| ArneBab wrote: | | Just imagine what people would say if I'd use "christ is useless. Atheists are better." as signature. It isn't important what I think about it. What matters is that if people would decide not to ignore it, the flames could damage the community. |
Well, I don't say "Portage is useless" in my signature. I also don't say "Portage users suck big time". I simply say basically that I use and I like Paludis. I don't understand how that would offend anyone. And this is not about religion. If another PM is developed which is better/faster/niftyer than Paludis, I'd switch using that and possibly promote it. I also used to use AMD computers but since Core2 I have had Intel system. Competition is good. Fanboyism is bad.
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Naib
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Location: UK - Birmingham
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | ArneBab wrote: | | The Gentoo community which suddenly quabbles over which package manager is better. |
You mean the same way as KDE/Gnome/XFCE/Whatever is splitting the Gentoo community? Or all the various instant messaging clients are breaking Gentoo apart? I don't think so... I think Paludis, Portage and pkgcore users are all part of Gentoo community. Period. And having alternatives is a good thing - just like in those examples I gave above.
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Well what would be good if all 4 of the package managers produced a corelib with common interface and that lib was PMS compliant, then eselect could be used to choose the actual core and emerge becomes more of a wrapper
Then if you wanted to use some of the other package managers "advanced" features you use some of their additional wrappers
that is something I would like to see
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ArneBab
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Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Paapaa wrote: | | ArneBab wrote: | | The Gentoo community which suddenly quabbles over which package manager is better. |
You mean the same way as KDE/Gnome/XFCE/Whatever is splitting the Gentoo community? Or all the various instant messaging clients are breaking Gentoo apart? I don't think so... I think Paludis, Portage and pkgcore users are all part of Gentoo community. Period. And having alternatives is a good thing - just like in those examples I gave above. |
Firstoff: It's about the core of gentoo. Neither KDE nor Gnome have the potential of creating an incomatible package tree.
Second: I said that a specific way of arguing for Paludis is dangerous, and I say the same about KDE/Gnome flamewars.
-> http://draketo.de/english/free-software/light/kde-and-gnome-vs
| Quote: | | I simply say basically that I use and I like Paludis. I don't understand how that would offend anyone. And this is not about religion. If another PM is developed which is better/faster/niftyer than Paludis, I'd switch using that and possibly promote it. I also used to use AMD computers but since Core2 I have had Intel system. Competition is good. Fanboyism is bad. |
"KDE, the way the desktop should look" -> that would draw flames.
"KDE, that's how I like my desktop" -> that would most likely draw some ironic comments - I can currently think of too many 
Maybe I'm a bit too sensitive to it (having had a bad experience with the paludis website and devs), but maybe that's a good thing, since I spot danger (and most likely overlook otehr dangers...).
I like it that we have paludis (and pkgcore!), but I'm a bit wary of the attitude of the devs half a year ago (yes, my data isn't current - doN't know if it's still valid).
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M
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Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Competition is good. Fanboyism is bad. |
Totaly agree with this, if someone is a portage fan then ignore threads about paludis, why people get upset about this I don't get it. I use paludis because of features portage doesn't have, and I am not bashing portage because he lacks something or does it differently, both do the job, but it is wrong to ignore someones bug because of paludis --info and not emerge --info, I still sync configs between them just for that.
| Quote: | | Maybe I'm a bit too sensitive to it (having had a bad experience with the paludis website and devs) |
I would say that you are a bit too sensitive, what that had to do with package manager, whoau, he sad something bad to this dev, I don't want to use that "crap", yeah, Linus is not kind so I will instantly switch to gnu hurd, just like that. I don't care about not having support for my hardware but he "is" rude. It doesn't go like this... I don't care about this, I care about features and paludis have a really good ones, how many times I read on this forums something like "How do I remove gnome/kde/xfce from system?" . And the answer is, "Oh, you use find/sed/grep/xargs and then --depclean and hope for the best etc." No, you should use your package manager, he put it there, he should know how to remove it. As simple as that.
Competion is always good, many of new and upcoming portage features paludis already had implemented, so if devs can at least exchange ideas in this way then it is something good and positive. |
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alistair
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Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 869
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | gentoofan23 wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | and eselect, which pulls in coreutils. So the depends parts are misleading. And what is that 'inquisito' stuff? And what about qa? xml? why do I want that - or not? |
The use flag descriptions tell you everything you need to make a decision on whether you want them or not... |
'enables the search client' - so it is a must have thingy.... |
Really, I never use inquisito, even tho I have the use flag set. So I would hardly call it a must have thingy. There are other search options you know.
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ArneBab
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| M wrote: | | Quote: | | Competition is good. Fanboyism is bad. |
Totaly agree with this, if someone is a portage fan then ignore threads about paludis, why people get upset about this I don't get it. |
The question is "are you satisfied with paludis", and the answer to that is simply "no, that's why I use portage again".
After that came "I'm not satisfied because..." - and that seems to not be fireproof enough...
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Maybe I'm a bit too sensitive to it (having had a bad experience with the paludis website and devs) |
I would say that you are a bit too sensitive, what that had to do with package manager |
I had bad experiences with it - and documentation and community help does have to do with the program.
If I'd have to go directly to Linus to get some help, I'm sure I wouldn't use Linux - but luckily there's Gentoo (and others), where people can exchange experiences without having to go to Linux with newbie questions (and get bashed).
I'm happy here, and I think that paludis helped portage get onward.
It's not for me, but paludis is helpful.
Please excuse me, if some of my comments weren't helpful for keeping the fire down.
I'm no old and wise granddad, either...
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justinkb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| this discussion is going nowhere, and is in fact getting kind of pathetic... |
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