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| Would (did) you switch back to portage after installing paludis? |
| 1. I stay with paludis |
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61% |
[ 258 ] |
| 2. I switched back to portage |
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38% |
[ 161 ] |
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| Total Votes : 419 |
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energyman76b
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 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: |
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So that ls can't do what less can is a limit of ls? Or just 'the right tool for the right job'?
The last time I checked the 'pms' was pretty much hold hostage by paludis devs&fanboys - so no surprise that paludis 'features' are going in. Btw - how many epais ware there already? And shouldn't there be some clean up before the next eapi is 'created'?
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Naib
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | so where is portage 'behind it'?
the major argument against paludis:
its devs and fans are very aggressive and like to create an aura of 'we are better than thou' around them. |
its not as far as approved Portage requirements. |
That's a useless measurement; portage requirements are approved(at least as far as ebuild specs go) as quickly as portage can deliver them, so it's not possible for a package manager to get ahead here. What you can look at is the number of things paludis has that's getting put in the next EAPIs(a lot, and those that don't go in verbatim are highly influenced by paludis' implementation). Paludis has tons of things hanging around for portage to implement(and subsequently get approved).
Even then, paludis is ahead of portage in things that aren't set as a standard(multi-repository support, searching in repositories not installed on the system, the list goes on) |
Not really, Portage must build what is in the tree, it does that. Yes new functionality is being added but do a piechart of what EAPI is in-use in the tree and you will see the overwelming majority is EAPI-0, portage does that, portage does EAPI-1 as well and iirc all if not most of eapi-2
Yes the whole overlay thing is a mess I'd admit and personally can't stand it
| gentoofan23 wrote: |
| Quote: |
as to devs and fans attitude yes it is bad and it doesn't show signs of changing, but if you don't have to interact with them it shouldn't influence your decision to use a piece of software BUT when you do and you get bitten it can put you off. Go check out the BMPx dev's they are bad and 1/2 the reason I stopped using that |
I've not been put off by their attitude. It's rough to those who don't bother to read the docs, but questions that make some sense are answered readily.
If you don't like using software whose devs are annoying to most people, by all means don't use glibc. Drepper is known to be a jerk a lot, so we should all switch to uclibc. Oh and Linus gets in a lot of flamewars, lets all use FreeBSD. Except that they have their fair share of flamewars and people who are jerks so just all use windows. |
Hence why I said If you have to interact with them.
Point is I have logs and userrel bug showing they will lie to get their point across.
I use to like bmpX but when I ran into an issue w.r.t. to how it grouped lp by id3 tags and spent some time on the irc channel and forum the two main dev's were dicks even tho the problem was explained perfectly - turns out later that week I spoke to another one of the dev's and he was reasonable and admitted how they handled lp that were mix-albums (ie multiple artists) was not good. Needless to say since I was unable to get any help and faced with insults I had no time for that irc channel or the app (esp since other apps work).
and to your comment on libc and kernel I don't go contacting linus and co directly, I goto gentoo dev's and they are always helpful
still doesn't justify them being dicks tho
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Naib
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | So that ls can't do what less can is a limit of ls? Or just 'the right tool for the right job'?
The last time I checked the 'pms' was pretty much hold hostage by paludis devs&fanboys - so no surprise that paludis 'features' are going in. Btw - how many epais ware there already? And shouldn't there be some clean up before the next eapi is 'created'? |
++
although some good has come out of it
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tanderson
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | So that ls can't do what less can is a limit of ls? Or just 'the right tool for the right job'?
The last time I checked the 'pms' was pretty much hold hostage by paludis devs&fanboys - so no surprise that paludis 'features' are going in. Btw - how many epais ware there already? And shouldn't there be some clean up before the next eapi is 'created'? |
That's rubbish. They're both package managers, and I'd like to see the features paludis has that you consider completely irrelevant for _anyone_ in a apackage manager.
The second part is also rubbish. It's not held hostage by anyone. It's a gentoo project and anyone with decent patches can contribute, and has contributed. In fact, if you would have looked you'd have noticed that there are some notable gentoo developers who contribute and interact with the pms folks, and they have _nothing_ to do with paludis. Also if you'd have bothered to look you'd realize that it is not the pms folks who decide what goes into the next EAPI, but the gentoo council. The pms people just write a formal spec of the requirements which the council *approve* before being called final. Hardly being held "hostage". Basically, it's hardly the 'paludis people' who shove new features in, though they do propose a good many of the accepted proposals.
The common consensus among devs is that there is no problem supporting more than 2 or 3 EAPIs. There are cheatsheets containing a brief list of changes in EAPIs for quick reference.
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juantxorena
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: | | I'd like to see the features paludis has that you consider completely irrelevant for _anyone_ in a apackage manager. |
For example?
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Naib
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | So that ls can't do what less can is a limit of ls? Or just 'the right tool for the right job'?
The last time I checked the 'pms' was pretty much hold hostage by paludis devs&fanboys - so no surprise that paludis 'features' are going in. Btw - how many epais ware there already? And shouldn't there be some clean up before the next eapi is 'created'? |
The second part is also rubbish. It's not held hostage by anyone. It's a gentoo project and anyone with decent patches can contribute, and has contributed. In fact, if you would have looked you'd have noticed that there are some notable gentoo developers who contribute and interact with the pms folks, and they have _nothing_ to do with paludis. Also if you'd have bothered to look you'd realize that it is not the pms folks who decide what goes into the next EAPI, but the gentoo council. The pms people just write a formal spec of the requirements which the council *approve* before being called final. Hardly being held "hostage". Basically, it's hardly the 'paludis people' who shove new features in, though they do propose a good many of the accepted proposals.
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Not true, the whole kdebuild fiasco is proof in itself. It is NOT! a Gentoo council approved "feature" yet it is constantly being refered to as being officially support ("since it is in the PMS"). userrel bugs have been opened against people that say it isn't an official feature, #gentoo-council had to be made +m at the last meeting due to continued insistance that it is a official feature...
That single topic and the insistance that it is approved has detailed plenty of irc (and proably ml) threads to effectively stall any useful discussion
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Naib
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: |
The common consensus among devs is that there is no problem supporting more than 2 or 3 EAPIs. There are cheatsheets containing a brief list of changes in EAPIs for quick reference. |
do you have a link to these please, this would be useful for what I do
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tanderson
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | gentoofan23 wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | So that ls can't do what less can is a limit of ls? Or just 'the right tool for the right job'?
The last time I checked the 'pms' was pretty much hold hostage by paludis devs&fanboys - so no surprise that paludis 'features' are going in. Btw - how many epais ware there already? And shouldn't there be some clean up before the next eapi is 'created'? |
The second part is also rubbish. It's not held hostage by anyone. It's a gentoo project and anyone with decent patches can contribute, and has contributed. In fact, if you would have looked you'd have noticed that there are some notable gentoo developers who contribute and interact with the pms folks, and they have _nothing_ to do with paludis. Also if you'd have bothered to look you'd realize that it is not the pms folks who decide what goes into the next EAPI, but the gentoo council. The pms people just write a formal spec of the requirements which the council *approve* before being called final. Hardly being held "hostage". Basically, it's hardly the 'paludis people' who shove new features in, though they do propose a good many of the accepted proposals.
|
Not true, the whole kdebuild fiasco is proof in itself. It is NOT! a Gentoo council approved "feature" yet it is constantly being refered to as being officially support ("since it is in the PMS"). userrel bugs have been opened against people that say it isn't an official feature, #gentoo-council had to be made +m at the last meeting due to continued insistance that it is a official feature...
That single topic and the insistance that it is approved has detailed plenty of irc (and proably ml) threads to effectively stall any useful discussion |
The official document approved by the council(and available on my devspace) makes only one mention of kdebuild, and people don't really have a problem with that one mention. I believe the userrel bug was for someone spreading misinformation about it(not about it being officially supported), but I don't remember the specifics(politices = evil). The #gentoo-council point is completely wrong, I don't know where you got your logs from. +m has not been set on any council meeting since the 26th of february(3 meetings, almost 4 meetings ago), and +m was set that meeting because the council needed to avoid the noise of the ongoing discussion about a certain GLEP 55 and cache issues(NOT kdebuild). There is no insistance that it is approved, only that it should stay in the pms repo(not the official doc, the repo) for easy reference.
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tanderson
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | gentoofan23 wrote: |
The common consensus among devs is that there is no problem supporting more than 2 or 3 EAPIs. There are cheatsheets containing a brief list of changes in EAPIs for quick reference. |
do you have a link to these please, this would be useful for what I do |
Why certainly 
http://v-li.de/temp/eapi_cheatsheet.pdf credit to Fauli.
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tanderson
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| juantxorena wrote: | | gentoofan23 wrote: | | I'd like to see the features paludis has that you consider completely irrelevant for _anyone_ in a apackage manager. |
For example? |
I don't know, that's why I'm asking everyone 
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juantxorena
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: | | juantxorena wrote: | | gentoofan23 wrote: | | I'd like to see the features paludis has that you consider completely irrelevant for _anyone_ in a apackage manager. |
For example? |
I don't know, that's why I'm asking everyone |
I mean, what features do you think that the people consider irrelevant but not you.
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tanderson
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| juantxorena wrote: | | gentoofan23 wrote: | | juantxorena wrote: | | gentoofan23 wrote: | | I'd like to see the features paludis has that you consider completely irrelevant for _anyone_ in a apackage manager. |
For example? |
I don't know, that's why I'm asking everyone |
I mean, what features do you think that the people consider irrelevant but not you. |
Uh, All of them are relevant for somepeople, hence why I'm asking for why people think some of the features are irrelevant for everyone
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juantxorena
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: | | Uh, All of them are relevant for somepeople, hence why I'm asking for why people think some of the features are irrelevant for everyone |
I used paludis some time ago, but the only features that I found were some "cosmetic" ones like sets support and a slightly better overlay management (but not THAT better). IMHO that's not enough to make so much noise.
For what I've read in this post, people like paludis mainly because:
1.- It's cool. (OK)
2.- It's much faster. (Somebody please can tell me how they found that paludis is faster than portage? Because I found them equally slow)
3.- The overlay management is great. (Is only great when you have two ebuilds with the same name and version in diferent overlays, something that shouldn't happen)
4.- Isn't made of spare parts, in reference to eix, dispatch-conf, etc. (Great. Is just a cosmetic problem, which I dislike because I'm pro-unix-toolbox-philosophy. Paludis needs hooks for doing some things anyway).
5.- It has hooks. (See above)
I'm sure that a lot of people like paludis more than portage, and they use it. Great for them. But IMHO, supposing that the user knows the most used switches for updgrading, uninstalling, searching and everything, portage and paludis, in most of the cases bevahe exactly the same way. And in the rest of the cases, if any, the behave pretty similar. Is not like paludis solves the expat upgrading problem, or the upgrading to xorg-server-1.5* thing.
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Lepaca Kliffoth
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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If Paludis had not been developed by Ciaran, you guys would be all over it just because it takes a few seconds less to compute dependencies and because you can search packages in overlays you have not added yet. You keep arguing bullshit only because of politics.
This used to be a great community of technicians that cared about knowledge, knowledge, knowledge and results, performance and technical merit. Now on the forums I can see an inordinate number of people whose behaviour reflects that of the devs responsible for Gentoo not being able to deliver technical progress at a decent speed. It seems those guys are the breed that proliferates the fastest in this stagnant distribution, like mosquitoes in discarded car tires filled with water and dirt.
The point of all this being that it's very, very sad for those that remember the old times.
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Naib
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Lepaca Kliffoth wrote: | If Paludis had not been developed by Ciaran, you guys would be all over it just because it takes a few seconds less to compute dependencies and because you can search packages in overlays you have not added yet. You keep arguing bullshit only because of politics.
This used to be a great community of technicians that cared about knowledge, knowledge, knowledge and results, performance and technical merit. Now on the forums I can see an inordinate number of people whose behaviour reflects that of the devs responsible for Gentoo not being able to deliver technical progress at a decent speed. It seems those guys are the breed that proliferates the fastest in this stagnant distribution, like mosquitoes in discarded car tires filled with water and dirt.
The point of all this being that it's very, very sad for those that remember the old times. |
provide numbers
All the numbers I have seen put paludis slower then Portage and pkgcore
Personally on the grand scale of thing the dependancy resolving is minor compared to actually compiling, but spreading FUD that paludis is faster isn't on really
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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infantile crap like this:
rc_test() {
# Work around Portage bugs
export PALUDIS_DO_NOTHING_SANDBOXY="portage sucks"
doesn't really increase my respect.
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Punisher
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like paludys because:
1)Paludis is write in C++, i prefer for a package manager a interpreted language how python.
2)Of course, compile C++ is slow..., and portage is very fast for install
3)Paludis need a different config for work fine. I don't want have use two different configs for package managers. Well, i can use only portage config for paludis too, but paludis performance go down... |
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tanderson
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Lepaca Kliffoth wrote: | If Paludis had not been developed by Ciaran, you guys would be all over it just because it takes a few seconds less to compute dependencies and because you can search packages in overlays you have not added yet. You keep arguing bullshit only because of politics.
This used to be a great community of technicians that cared about knowledge, knowledge, knowledge and results, performance and technical merit. Now on the forums I can see an inordinate number of people whose behaviour reflects that of the devs responsible for Gentoo not being able to deliver technical progress at a decent speed. It seems those guys are the breed that proliferates the fastest in this stagnant distribution, like mosquitoes in discarded car tires filled with water and dirt.
The point of all this being that it's very, very sad for those that remember the old times. |
provide numbers
All the numbers I have seen put paludis slower then Portage and pkgcore
Personally on the grand scale of thing the dependancy resolving is minor compared to actually compiling, but spreading FUD that paludis is faster isn't on really |
http://blog.piotrj.org/2009/03/benchmark-paludis-038-and-portage-2169_22.html is one. Personally I don't get the whole performance thing. Performance is only one small aspect, and there are plenty of other reasons to choose paludis over portage, and not many to choose portage(the whole officially support thing).
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Naib
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| gentoofan23 wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | Lepaca Kliffoth wrote: | If Paludis had not been developed by Ciaran, you guys would be all over it just because it takes a few seconds less to compute dependencies and because you can search packages in overlays you have not added yet. You keep arguing bullshit only because of politics.
This used to be a great community of technicians that cared about knowledge, knowledge, knowledge and results, performance and technical merit. Now on the forums I can see an inordinate number of people whose behaviour reflects that of the devs responsible for Gentoo not being able to deliver technical progress at a decent speed. It seems those guys are the breed that proliferates the fastest in this stagnant distribution, like mosquitoes in discarded car tires filled with water and dirt.
The point of all this being that it's very, very sad for those that remember the old times. |
provide numbers
All the numbers I have seen put paludis slower then Portage and pkgcore
Personally on the grand scale of thing the dependency resolving is minor compared to actually compiling, but spreading FUD that paludis is faster isn't on really |
http://blog.piotrj.org/2009/03/benchmark-paludis-038-and-portage-2169_22.html is one. Personally I don't get the whole performance thing. Performance is only one small aspect, and there are plenty of other reasons to choose paludis over portage, and not many to choose portage(the whole officially support thing). |
And thats my point. There are benchmarks that show portage faster and benchmarks that show pkgcore is faster.
Fact is I have tried all 3 for a reasonable amount of time and I have my reasons for sticking with portage (the main one is so I can support in #gentoo)
and the fact is the time difference's isn't that great
Not only that if someone is more interested in watching the output of a application then actually using a multi-tasking OS for what its for (ie... multitasking) then they should go back to windows95
I mean FFS I boot machine, open terminal, su to root, emerge --sync && emerge @system @world -uvDp and open firefox and read a few pages
What I am more concerned with from the package manager is that it does what it is meant todo with an ebuild
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Naib
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Punisher wrote: | I don't like paludys because:
1)Paludis is write in C++, i prefer for a package manager a interpreted language how python. |
dpkg is written in C
rpm is written in C
neither of which is in an interpreted language. Interpreted language doesn't make something better or worse
| Punisher wrote: |
2)Of course, compile C++ is slow..., and portage is very fast for install |
to install Paludis you need to 1) install gcc, 2) install Paludis
to install portage you need to 1) install gcc, 2) install python 3) install portage
Yes C++ compiles slow but it once it is compiled that is fine. Look at how long gcc takes to compile. Comparing compiling times on a gentoo system is quite silly.
I would be more concerned with gcc ability to break C++ compatibilty for its major releases (libstd++)
| Punisher wrote: |
3)Paludis need a different config for work fine. I don't want have use two different configs for package managers. Well, i can use only portage config for paludis too, but paludis performance go down... |
paludis can use portage config files
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tanderson
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | gentoofan23 wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | Lepaca Kliffoth wrote: | If Paludis had not been developed by Ciaran, you guys would be all over it just because it takes a few seconds less to compute dependencies and because you can search packages in overlays you have not added yet. You keep arguing bullshit only because of politics.
This used to be a great community of technicians that cared about knowledge, knowledge, knowledge and results, performance and technical merit. Now on the forums I can see an inordinate number of people whose behaviour reflects that of the devs responsible for Gentoo not being able to deliver technical progress at a decent speed. It seems those guys are the breed that proliferates the fastest in this stagnant distribution, like mosquitoes in discarded car tires filled with water and dirt.
The point of all this being that it's very, very sad for those that remember the old times. |
provide numbers
All the numbers I have seen put paludis slower then Portage and pkgcore
Personally on the grand scale of thing the dependency resolving is minor compared to actually compiling, but spreading FUD that paludis is faster isn't on really |
http://blog.piotrj.org/2009/03/benchmark-paludis-038-and-portage-2169_22.html is one. Personally I don't get the whole performance thing. Performance is only one small aspect, and there are plenty of other reasons to choose paludis over portage, and not many to choose portage(the whole officially support thing). |
And thats my point. There are benchmarks that show portage faster and benchmarks that show pkgcore is faster.
Fact is I have tried all 3 for a reasonable amount of time and I have my reasons for sticking with portage (the main one is so I can support in #gentoo)
and the fact is the time difference's isn't that great
Not only that if someone is more interested in watching the output of a application then actually using a multi-tasking OS for what its for (ie... multitasking) then they should go back to windows95
I mean FFS I boot machine, open terminal, su to root, emerge --sync && emerge @system @world -uvDp and open firefox and read a few pages
What I am more concerned with from the package manager is that it does what it is meant todo with an ebuild |
Yeah, that's pretty much how I am, I just have more reasons to stick with paludis(being a dev and working with overlays is really easy with paludis). I'm pretty sure both portage and paludis both conform to the council approved spec, PMS, so that's not really an issue.
+1 on the gcc/python/paludis compile time stuff. My installed time for paludis is | Code: | | Installed time: Sat Feb 28 01:09:09 2009 |
Not really a big issue 
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Punisher
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Punisher wrote: | I don't like paludys because:
1)Paludis is write in C++, i prefer for a package manager a interpreted language how python. |
dpkg is written in C
rpm is written in C
neither of which is in an interpreted language. Interpreted language doesn't make something better or worse
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Yes, i know, and i don't use debian and red hat clones for its package managers. And, I have said i prefer a package manager write with a interpreted language no that a language make something better or worse. For example, archlinux's pacman is write in C and is the best package manager for binary packages, but i prefer a package manager write with a interpreted language why are more easy for system administration if you need change something
| Punisher wrote: |
to install Paludis you need to 1) install gcc, 2) install Paludis
to install portage you need to 1) install gcc, 2) install python 3) install portage
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For install portage you need a gentoo standard stage3. And i use python, is no problem for me. A interpreted language for package manage tasks is sufficient.
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Yes C++ compiles slow but it once it is compiled that is fine. Look at how long gcc takes to compile. Comparing compiling times on a gentoo system is quite silly.
I would be more concerned with gcc ability to break C++ compatibilty for its major releases (libstd++)
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In a production server, compilation times can be a problem (paludis is very slow for compile). The binary support in portage is better what in paludis. Other reason for use portage. Yes, i can use other machine for compile paludis, but , why i'll have to lost time compiling paludis when i can use portage?.
| Punisher wrote: |
3)Paludis need a different config for work fine. I don't want have use two different configs for package managers. Well, i can use only portage config for paludis too, but paludis performance go down... |
paludis can use portage config files[/quote]
Ok, I said "paludis performance go down..." if i use portage config files. Why i'll have to use paludis if with portage config files is slow?. |
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tanderson
Retired Dev
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Punisher wrote: |
3)Paludis need a different config for work fine. I don't want have use two different configs for package managers. Well, i can use only portage config for paludis too, but paludis performance go down... |
paludis can use portage config files[/quote]
Ok, I said "paludis performance go down..." if i use portage config files. Why i'll have to use paludis if with portage config files is slow?.[/quote]
Per the statistics I quoted earlier, performance goes down by about a half a second...If that's an issue for you then you're an unsatisfiable user
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ArneBab
Guru
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 429
Location: Graben-Neudorf, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Lepaca Kliffoth wrote: | | If Paludis had not been developed by Ciaran, you guys would be all over it just because it takes a few seconds less to compute dependencies and because you can search packages in overlays you have not added yet. You keep arguing bullshit only because of politics. |
Sorry to be so frank, but: By whom?
I don't know Ciaran, though I read the name a few times - and without attaching any emotion to it besides "cool, a Gentoo dev".
Still I don't like Paludis, and aside from usability and attitude (not the nice "let me explain" which is so great about Gentoo docs, but the hard "you have to learn all, else you're dumb" which I got in the face when I tried Paludis) one of the bigger reasons is that I feel a split created by it.
People running around with sigs in the style of "Paludis, the better package manager" don't really help keeping a community together.
And saying "Python is bad" instead of "I don't like Python" doesn't help either (a paludis dev told me that in #paludis, but couldn't back it up with real facts to convince me that it's solid and not just a personal feeling - "you can't build bigger applications with it, because it can be used for rapid prototyping" just doesn't suffice) - I happen to like Python very much, and so a program doesn't get better for me just because it is not written in Python. If the operation is IO bound, your language doesn't matter much when it comes to speed.
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pkgcore: So fast that it feels unreal - by doing only what is needed. |
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ArneBab
Guru
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 429
Location: Graben-Neudorf, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | export PALUDIS_DO_NOTHING_SANDBOXY="portage sucks" |
Ominous Hum...
(sorry for the OT - Schlock's one of my favorites, and I just can't resist ).
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Being unpolitical means being political without realizing it. - Arne Babenhauserheide ( http://draketo.de )
pkgcore: So fast that it feels unreal - by doing only what is needed. |
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