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Ateo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
Ateo wrote:
numerodix wrote:
No, it's scary because breaking into a house to steal stuff worth maybe $500 comes with a penalty of death with impunity, rather than a month in jail or what have you. It may suck to get your car stolen, but I wouldn't wish *death* on the robber, I think we can make do with less extreme penalties.


So in other words, we're supposed to ask the burgler what he's in the house to steal before shooting him/her? The burgler should consider the possible consequences before breaking into someone's house....

Good idea. Put the person in jail, let him out in a month or two so that he's back on the street doing the same shit as before.... GREAT IDEA!


So use stricter penalties on that. If the penalty was 5 years in jail, don't you think that would be a pretty good deterrent?

You cannot possibly value human life very much if you think killing people over robbery is completely acceptable.


A stricter penalty? Ok. In some islamic republics, they cut off the hands of a theif. Is this acceptable? If this happens, it's almost a guarantee they won't steel again.


Last edited by Ateo on Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
xglad wrote:
Zepp wrote:
Why the hell would you need to carry a gun around with you. Do you go grocery shopping with your gun? You never know when you will find Osama in the canned goods section :?

True story.

The last office that my company was in was in a terrible area. Being IT and all, we worked late. We were just getting ready to turn a big system on so for six months or so it wasn't uncommon for us to leave well after midnight.

At least one car was broken in to a week. Every week. It was like clock work. My Accura was broken into 3 times, the ignition was unsuccessfully punched 2 times and, the last time, the whole driver's side door was pried off. Eventually, a girl in an office below us was assualted and raped in the parking lot. No amount of requests to the local police or the building owners accomplished anything.

I got licensed to carry concealed, started bringing a gun to work, and started escorting out our 2 female programmers every night no matter what time they left. Luckily, I never had to use it.

What would -you- do in that situation Zepp?


That is a terrible, terrible place to work/live in, xglad. Doesn't it strike you that it's the authorities passing the buck here? Instead of doing something to make it safer, they just let you have guns and "figure it out yourselves". It's like a completely unmoderated forum, flamewars raging. So the solution should come from above, from the authorities who have the means to change it. Not gun toting citizens playing superhero.


Exactly, your police or company should have done something about it. But anyway I would of gotten someone to come and pick me up for those couple nights/weeks instead of walking around after midnight before I carried a gun around.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
Another true story.

Last December, someone broke into my 86 year old grandfather's house while he was alseep. They stole some money out of his wallet and ended up hitting him over the head so hard while he was sleeping with something that it opened up his skull and he nearly bled to death before he came to and was able to get himself to the phone.

And you're going to put limits on my value of human life??


Well, it was my impression that burglars break into houses to steal stuff, not beat people up. Especially if they aren't being threatened. But it sounds like those people also didn't value human life very much. Which makes them not much different from those willing to shoot people for breaking in (except of course they are breaking the law)?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ateo wrote:
A stricter penalty? Ok. In some islamic republics, they cut off the hands of a theif. Is this acceptable? If this happens, it's almost a guarantee they won't steel again.


What would you rather have? An amputated hand or lose your life? I'm not saying either is particularly tempting, but at least it's an improvement. People who are paralysed from horrific traffic accidents don't have the same kind of life as the rest of us, but at least they're still alive, no?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
Of course it strikes me that way numerodix. But the point is, this is what we have to work with. This is what it is like in lots of the US. Lots of things need to change to fix it, but the fact remains: this is the way it is right now. So, given that situation, what do you do to protect yourself, your friends, and your family?


I can appreciate that you're in a situation where you don't have much choice. And I think those who criticize the liberal gun laws in the US aren't picking on citizens for owning guns as they live in dangerous communities. It's more like criticizing the whole establishment for things having to be that way.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
Ateo wrote:
A stricter penalty? Ok. In some islamic republics, they cut off the hands of a theif. Is this acceptable? If this happens, it's almost a guarantee they won't steel again.


What would you rather have? An amputated hand or lose your life? I'm not saying either is particularly tempting, but at least it's an improvement. People who are paralysed from horrific traffic accidents don't have the same kind of life as the rest of us, but at least they're still alive, no?


You're jumping into a grey area here. I have no respect for theives. Just like I have no respect for rapists, child molesters and murderers. Why should I care what happens to a theif? I value human life if they do no harm unto others. Burglarizing does harm unto others.

I would be for cutting off hands but in reality, that would never happen here. EVER. So the next best thing is protecting myself since the cops cannot possibly be there 100% of the time especially to catch the burgler in action.

In the end, as I've stated before, the theif should know the possible consequences of breaking into a house. It might be jail time, a baseball bat to the knees or it might be death.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
Well, it was my impression that burglars break into houses to steal stuff, not beat people up. Especially if they aren't being threatened. But it sounds like those people also didn't value human life very much. Which makes them not much different from those willing to shoot people for breaking in (except of course they are breaking the law)?

This is absurd. If I break into your house and I may, or may not, do you harm, you would consider yourself to be on the same level as me just because you chose to defend yourself? Absurd.

numerodix wrote:
xglad wrote:
Of course it strikes me that way numerodix. But the point is, this is what we have to work with. This is what it is like in lots of the US. Lots of things need to change to fix it, but the fact remains: this is the way it is right now. So, given that situation, what do you do to protect yourself, your friends, and your family?


I can appreciate that you're in a situation where you don't have much choice. And I think those who criticize the liberal gun laws in the US aren't picking on citizens for owning guns as they live in dangerous communities. It's more like criticizing the whole establishment for things having to be that way.

It really doesn't come across that way. It actually comes across as a bunch of hopelessly naive people that live in gingerbread houses having a fit over their less fortunate neighbors coping with their own plight.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ateo wrote:
You're jumping into a grey area here. I have no respect for theives. Just like I have no respect for rapists, child molesters and murderers. Why should I care what happens to a theif? I value human life if they do no harm unto others. Burglarizing does harm unto others.

I would be for cutting off hands but in reality, that would never happen here. EVER. So the next best thing is protecting myself since the cops cannot possibly be there 100% of the time especially to catch the burgler in action.

In the end, as I've stated before, the theif should know the possible consequences of breaking into a house. It might be jail time, a baseball bat to the knees or it might be death.


So you're saying that the whole justice system is pointless? Might as well punish people for crimes inflicted on you right on the spot?

I don't have the kind of stories to tell that some of you do. I was robbed on a busy street once in Poland in broad daylight and it really scared me. And of course I could have tried to fight back at the time (I was too shocked to even think at the time), but that solves very little. A friend of mine did that, he got accosted and fly kicked the guy to the ground. Then half an hour later some bigger guy turned up and broke his nose. If this incidents involved guns, perhaps my friend would not be alive today.

But what strikes me that in the city where this took place, the unemployment rate is 20%. That may just be a reason why kids (cause these were all teenagers/young adults) get involved in this stuff rather than doing something more productive. This is class differences staring you in the face. Every time a new regulation comes through that makes life more pleasant for the rich and tougher on the poor, the gap widens. Crimes picks up and the rich try harder to "protect" themselves with big fences and security.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
This is absurd. If I break into your house and I may, or may not, do you harm, you would consider yourself to be on the same level as me just because you chose to defend yourself? Absurd.


I don't mind self defence. If someone broke into my house and I beat him up I would expect people to understand. Especially if I felt threatened. And even if I had a gun and shot him in the leg or whatever. But killing is something I have a big problem with. There's a big difference between physical injury (as deplorable as it is) and death.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't disagree numerodix. But the problem that remains is that if someone breaks into your house (or school, or whatever), you simply do not know what their intent is. Now, if they are already doing something so unpleasant as breaking and entering, why would any sane person assume that they are just coming in for a lump of sugar or a cup's worth of tea?

It might be sane to make that assumption in Holland (where I would much rather live btw), but it isn't sane to make that assumption in the US. I think the perception of an intruder's intent is the thing that ends up giving us such different opinions.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
I don't disagree numerodix. But the problem that remains is that if someone breaks into your house (or school, or whatever), you simply do not know what their intent is. Now, if they are already doing something so unpleasant as breaking and entering, why would any sane person assume that they are just coming in for a lump of sugar or a cup's worth of tea?

It might be sane to make that assumption in Holland (where I would much rather live btw), but it isn't sane to make that assumption in the US. I think the perception of an intruder's intent is the thing that ends up giving us such different opinions.


Didn't even know Ft. Lauderdale was that bad of a place...was there a few years back and didn't seem that rough. Much better than here in NY...this place is a shithole.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess you're right.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm surprised no one has taken out Bush yet lol...Bush is the biggest criminal scumbag of them all.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF!!! 24th School Shooting This Year? Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Amish_school_shooting#Other_recent_school_shootings

Quote:
This was the 24th school shooting of 2006 in the United States according to the National School Safety and Security Services.
NFW! You have 24 school shootings IN A YEAR!!!.

If that isn't an advert for gun control i dont know what is!

Gun control only stops(slows-down) people purchsing guns through "legitimate" means. It does nothing to curb the black market trade.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any evidence it doesn't curve gun violence? I am just curious as I hear that argument alot, but am not aware of it being a huge problem in countries with stricter gun laws, but then those countries may have never had this problem to the same degree.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix, I think we are both right.

plbe, Ft. Lauderdale is about like any place I think. There are good areas and bad areas. I happened to be in a bad area at the time.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
And if a shooting happened it was neve solved by some brave citizens with their private gun cache, but by police forces. So remove the guns and you will reduce the risk.

Ha! Like the media would want anyone to know that guns can actually be used defensively. There's a magazine my Dad used to subscribe to (American Hunter, IIRC) and every month it had a section with a dozen stories of people defending themselves against burglars or whatnot, be it in their houses or at work (esp. convenience stores), and each story was accompanied by a reference. Don't think I've ever seen any of those stories come up in any widespread news.

I don't know about anywhere other than here, so I'll just ask this: what's the response time for the police where you live? If someone breaks into your house and you cringe in the corner and call 911 while he's not looking, will the cops get there before the guy's gone? 'Round here, t'aint so unfortunately.

I used to have an uncle who was a cop in a not terribly nice city. I remember him joking that the cops in the city I was in would go after traffic violators and kids smoking pot and call it a busy evening, while he'd go after a couple of hard-core criminals on an slow day. Sometime the cops are just too busy to get to you. Sometimes there aren't enough of them to cover your city as well as you'd want. A responsible gun owner can still defend themselves and their property (oh, did I mention that in capitalist America, owning things is important?). Now, you can you really blame the gun owners for the faults of society? I won't argue whether America has more violent criminals than elsewhere, as I've no idea. But I'd only be slightly surprised (I might raise an eyebrow if you're lucky).

I'm mostly against gun control myself. My family was brought up to know how to use and respect guns, to use them for sport, etc... Some people might say "just put restrictions on assault rifles." I agree, as I see no need for the common citizen to have one. Others will go a little further: "restrict hand-guns, let the hunters keep their rifles and shotguns." I'd fight this, but mainly on the grounds that I want to be able to protect myself. However, a .30-06 can still put a lot of hurt into a person... plus you don't have to be readily visible to do it. More of assassination than murder (though I suppose assassination is murder), but it could still happen. So some people will say "just restrict all guns." Now you've got all the people who shoot for sport (hunting or target practice) pissed off... but they already have guns. It's just messy.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
Americans have a fascination with guns unrivaled anywhere. [...] It's very hard to understand this from a European point of view, why would you need a gun if you don't need to kill anyone? How does a gun in the house protect you, you shoot a burglar and you go to jail for murder. I still don't understand why you guys love guns so much, but I can see that you do.

It makes sense from a historical point of view. The American Revolution, the Civil War, settling the West, and the general mindset of self-reliance and distrust of authority that goes along with liberal democracy.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can debate morality and the value of human life all you want, but it all goes out the window when you find yourself in a situation where you are genuinely scared for your own safety and/or the safety of your loved ones. Picture this: you weak up at night because you hear someone breaking into your house. They may or may not have a weapon. You have your spouse and your kids sleeping in your house. What do you do? Do you call the police and hide in the closet? Do you walk up to the burglar and check if he/she has a weapon, and politely ask him/her to leave? Tell me you wouldn't want t own a gun then. Remember, guns aren't always lethal - you can shoot to disable the offender so that they are no longer a threat, without killing them, and wait for the police to pick them up. Even with the possibility of shooting to kill, or, more likely, shooting without precise aim and ending up firing a lethal shot, do you consider the value of all human life equal? Intellectually and morally, you might easily answer "yes", but tell me that you value the life of the burglar who may or may not be ready to kill anyone who gets in the way just as much as you value your own life or that of your loved ones.

Gun control is necessery to keep guns away from people who aren't capable of responsibly handling one, and some sort of training should certainly be required, but responsible, mentally stable adults with no criminal record should always have the right to own a gun and use it in self defense. Morality may dictate otherwise, but the morally correct decisions are the often wrong ones when you consider what a delightful bunch of critters we humans really are. You find it scary that a thief can get shot for robbing a house? I find it scary that there are so many armed robberies.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freelight wrote:
Gun control is necessery to keep guns away from people who aren't capable of responsibly handling one, and some sort of training should certainly be required, but responsible, mentally stable adults with no criminal record should always have the right to own a gun and use it in self defense. Morality may dictate otherwise, but the morally correct decisions are the often wrong ones when you consider what a delightful bunch of critters we humans really are. You find it scary that a thief can get shot for robbing a house? I find it scary that there are so many armed robberies.

QFT

on a slightly sadistic, if humerous, note, I heard once that in the event of your house being robbed, you should shoot to kill rather than to injure; saves on paperwork and prevents the possibility of the robber suing your for medical payments.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freelight wrote:
You find it scary that a thief can get shot for robbing a house? I find it scary that there are so many armed robberies.


I find that equally scary.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
Zepp wrote:
Why the hell would you need to carry a gun around with you. Do you go grocery shopping with your gun? You never know when you will find Osama in the canned goods section :?

True story.

The last office that my company was in was in a terrible area. Being IT and all, we worked late. We were just getting ready to turn a big system on so for six months or so it wasn't uncommon for us to leave well after midnight.

At least one car was broken in to a week. Every week. It was like clock work. My Accura was broken into 3 times, the ignition was unsuccessfully punched 2 times and, the last time, the whole driver's side door was pried off. Eventually, a girl in an office below us was assualted and raped in the parking lot. No amount of requests to the local police or the building owners accomplished anything.

I got licensed to carry concealed, started bringing a gun to work, and started escorting out our 2 female programmers every night no matter what time they left. Luckily, I never had to use it.

What would -you- do in that situation Zepp?


ack. was this in lauderdale area? whereabout?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lauderhill. Near University and 44th.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brainfart wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
And if a shooting happened it was neve solved by some brave citizens with their private gun cache, but by police forces. So remove the guns and you will reduce the risk.

Ha! Like the media would want anyone to know that guns can actually be used defensively. There's a magazine my Dad used to subscribe to (American Hunter, IIRC) and every month it had a section with a dozen stories of people defending themselves against burglars or whatnot, be it in their houses or at work (esp. convenience stores), and each story was accompanied by a reference. Don't think I've ever seen any of those stories come up in any widespread news.



and most of that stories were made up, or years old and reprinted regularly. You don't need a gun, to defend against a 'burglar'. Non deadly weapons are enough. Hit him with a pan, use a taser. Or just call the police.

What? The police is not there in 5min or less?

Well, something is inherently broken with the country you are living in.

Oh, and did that magazine also print stories about parents loosing a child, because his friend shoot it accidentally? Or did it bring the stories, where fathers shot one of his teenagers, who tried to sneak in late at night and was confused with a burglar?

Hm, maybe that magazine should have brought stories about all that man going on a rampage and shoot around in schools or at work. 'I was fed up and so I went to my boss' home and killed him, his lovely wife and 3 children'. Would make a great story about the benefits of guns.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freelight wrote:
You can debate morality and the value of human life all you want, but it all goes out the window when you find yourself in a situation where you are genuinely scared for your own safety and/or the safety of your loved ones. Picture this: you weak up at night because you hear someone breaking into your house. They may or may not have a weapon. You have your spouse and your kids sleeping in your house. What do you do? Do you call the police and hide in the closet? Do you walk up to the burglar and check if he/she has a weapon, and politely ask him/her to leave? Tell me you wouldn't want t own a gun then. Remember, guns aren't always lethal - you can shoot to disable the offender so that they are no longer a threat, without killing them, and wait for the police to pick them up. Even with the possibility of shooting to kill, or, more likely, shooting without precise aim and ending up firing a lethal shot, do you consider the value of all human life equal? Intellectually and morally, you might easily answer "yes", but tell me that you value the life of the burglar who may or may not be ready to kill anyone who gets in the way just as much as you value your own life or that of your loved ones.

Gun control is necessery to keep guns away from people who aren't capable of responsibly handling one, and some sort of training should certainly be required, but responsible, mentally stable adults with no criminal record should always have the right to own a gun and use it in self defense. Morality may dictate otherwise, but the morally correct decisions are the often wrong ones when you consider what a delightful bunch of critters we humans really are. You find it scary that a thief can get shot for robbing a house? I find it scary that there are so many armed robberies.


and after shooting the burglar you see, that it was your 15 year old daughter... and then?
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