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numerodix
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
numerodix wrote:
How does a gun in the house protect you, you shoot a burglar and you go to jail for murder.

If you shoot a burglar in your house you end up with 1 dead burglar and 0 people in jail.


Really? How so? Breaking into a house equals losing your right to live?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:

I was going to comment on this, but I think I'm finally beginning to understand. Americans have a fascination with guns unrivaled anywhere. Such a thirst for owning guns that if you make it illegal there'll be hordes of deprived gun owners trying to recover their damages on the black market. I've read people say this many times in the past, but I think it's just starting to dawn on me now.

It's very hard to understand this from a European point of view, why would you need a gun if you don't need to kill anyone? How does a gun in the house protect you, you shoot a burglar and you go to jail for murder. I still don't understand why you guys love guns so much, but I can see that you do. And thus it would be incredibly difficult to bring about a change of culture.


I don't know about the general American population, but I am fascinated by guns, and yet I have never tried to seek them out through the black market. Gun control does work. Although I think people should be responsible enough and not go on shooting sprees. Maybe that is asking too much of common people.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:
Maybe that is asking too much of common people.
looks like it
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
xglad wrote:
numerodix wrote:
How does a gun in the house protect you, you shoot a burglar and you go to jail for murder.

If you shoot a burglar in your house you end up with 1 dead burglar and 0 people in jail.


Really? How so? Breaking into a house equals losing your right to live?

How so? How so because it isn't illegal for me to shoot an intruder in my own home. Actually, in Florida, I don't have to retreat in public, even if I can retreat. I am authorized (and so is every other FL citizen that is legally able to carry concealed firearms) by the state legislature to use deadly force if I believe my safety is at risk. For example, if someone attempts to mug me in a public parking lot, I can shoot them. If someone tries to car jack me, I can shoot them.

I'm not arguing that this is necessarily right, I'm arguing that this is the way the law is. So, your statement 'shoot a burglar, go to jail' is simply inaccurate.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
xglad wrote:
numerodix wrote:
How does a gun in the house protect you, you shoot a burglar and you go to jail for murder.

If you shoot a burglar in your house you end up with 1 dead burglar and 0 people in jail.


Really? How so? Breaking into a house equals losing your right to live?


In America...yes.....sad but true.
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numerodix
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
numerodix wrote:
xglad wrote:
numerodix wrote:
How does a gun in the house protect you, you shoot a burglar and you go to jail for murder.

If you shoot a burglar in your house you end up with 1 dead burglar and 0 people in jail.


Really? How so? Breaking into a house equals losing your right to live?

How so? How so because it isn't illegal for me to shoot an intruder in my own home. Actually, in Florida, I don't have to retreat in public, even if I can retreat. I am authorized (and so is every other FL citizen that is legally able to carry concealed firearms) by the state legislature to use deadly force if I believe my safety is at risk. For example, if someone attempts to mug me in a public parking lot, I can shoot them. If someone tries to car jack me, I can shoot them.

I'm not arguing that this is necessarily right, I'm arguing that this is the way the law is. So, your statement 'shoot a burglar, go to jail' is simply inaccurate.


Wow, that is one scary country you have over there. The wild west. I'm surprised you don't have more gun related deaths.

And what percentage of the people you know in Florida own guns?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
How so? How so because it isn't illegal for me to shoot an intruder in my own home. Actually, in Florida, I don't have to retreat in public, even if I can retreat. I am authorized (and so is every other FL citizen that is legally able to carry concealed firearms) by the state legislature to use deadly force if I believe my safety is at risk. For example, if someone attempts to mug me in a public parking lot, I can shoot them. If someone tries to car jack me, I can shoot them.

I'm not arguing that this is necessarily right, I'm arguing that this is the way the law is. So, your statement 'shoot a burglar, go to jail' is simply inaccurate.
that is quite sad. Human life is very cheap there.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is scary. Sort of makes you think twice about breaking into a house, mugging someone, or car jacking someone doesn't it?

I'm not from Florida originally, so I don't have a lot of friends here. Of the people I know at work, and know well enough to know this about them, I'd say maybe 25% own guns. Of that 25%, about 50% can carry concealed legally. I wouldn't expect these numbers to be truly representative though.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
xglad wrote:
numerodix wrote:
xglad wrote:
numerodix wrote:
How does a gun in the house protect you, you shoot a burglar and you go to jail for murder.

If you shoot a burglar in your house you end up with 1 dead burglar and 0 people in jail.


Really? How so? Breaking into a house equals losing your right to live?

How so? How so because it isn't illegal for me to shoot an intruder in my own home. Actually, in Florida, I don't have to retreat in public, even if I can retreat. I am authorized (and so is every other FL citizen that is legally able to carry concealed firearms) by the state legislature to use deadly force if I believe my safety is at risk. For example, if someone attempts to mug me in a public parking lot, I can shoot them. If someone tries to car jack me, I can shoot them.

I'm not arguing that this is necessarily right, I'm arguing that this is the way the law is. So, your statement 'shoot a burglar, go to jail' is simply inaccurate.


Wow, that is one scary country you have over there. The wild west. I'm surprised you don't have more gun related deaths.

And what percentage of the people you know in Florida own guns?


I don't think we need anymore.........

FACT:In 2003 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,136 gun deaths in the U.S:

* 16,907 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 11,920 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 730 unintentional shootings (2% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 347 from legal intervention and 232 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).

-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2006.


Last edited by plbe on Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
xglad wrote:
numerodix wrote:
How does a gun in the house protect you, you shoot a burglar and you go to jail for murder.

If you shoot a burglar in your house you end up with 1 dead burglar and 0 people in jail.


Really? How so? Breaking into a house equals losing your right to live?


It's considered self defence, at least that's what most people argue. You still have to live with having taken anothers life. How you live with that I have no idea... I think there's something wrong with you and the society you live in if your only solution to being scared involve owning assault weapons. Strict gun control works just peachy for the majority of the world and surprise by heavily limiting the amount of people with guns we don't have mentally unstable nutcases walking into schools and shooting the place up.

5.5 million danes, strict gun control. It's a big year if we even have a major event involving guns - biggest might be one of the leisure hunting morons who can't aim. I can't ever recall having a school shooting of any kind, in fact I can't remember any incidents of this kind of deal in any of the major european countries. Having to use google to find one rather than memory = Priceless, in more ways than one. The most recent one I found, 2002, german kid runs amok shots up school, 18 dead. Most recent danish incident... there are none, yes that's right none what so ever.


Last edited by playfool on Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
xglad wrote:
How so? How so because it isn't illegal for me to shoot an intruder in my own home. Actually, in Florida, I don't have to retreat in public, even if I can retreat. I am authorized (and so is every other FL citizen that is legally able to carry concealed firearms) by the state legislature to use deadly force if I believe my safety is at risk. For example, if someone attempts to mug me in a public parking lot, I can shoot them. If someone tries to car jack me, I can shoot them.

I'm not arguing that this is necessarily right, I'm arguing that this is the way the law is. So, your statement 'shoot a burglar, go to jail' is simply inaccurate.
that is quite sad. Human life is very cheap there.

Oh boo hoo. The argument goes both ways. Maybe we value human life enough that we allow lawful citizens to protect their own lives lawfully against those that do not value it at all.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
Oh boo hoo. The argument goes both ways. Maybe we value human life enough that we allow lawful citizens to protect their own lives lawfully against those that do not value it at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why the hell would you need to carry a gun around with you. Do you go grocery shopping with your gun? You never know when you will find Osama in the canned goods section :?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

damn, they should use a sumarai sword next time, like Kill Bill, must more fun. and people can stop bitching about guns laws. :twisted:
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: WTF!!! 24th School Shooting This Year? Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Amish_school_shooting#Other_recent_school_shootings

Quote:
This was the 24th school shooting of 2006 in the United States according to the National School Safety and Security Services.
NFW! You have 24 school shootings IN A YEAR!!!.

If that isn't an advert for gun control i dont know what is!


Yet another sign that the south should be nuked. Oh wait. Virgina is "not in the south"? Close enough.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
It is scary. Sort of makes you think twice about breaking into a house, mugging someone, or car jacking someone doesn't it?


No, it's scary because breaking into a house to steal stuff worth maybe $500 comes with a penalty of death with impunity, rather than a month in jail or what have you. It may suck to get your car stolen, but I wouldn't wish *death* on the robber, I think we can make do with less extreme penalties.

xglad wrote:
Oh boo hoo. The argument goes both ways. Maybe we value human life enough that we allow lawful citizens to protect their own lives lawfully against those that do not value it at all.


Maybe if I felt under threat of being killed everyday I would get a gun too. But I don't. And I'm not.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
Really? How so? Breaking into a house equals losing your right to live?


Break into my house, I will shoot. Simple as that. Here in Nevada, we HAVE that right. The cops will ask questions then pat you on the back for getting rid of.... well, shit.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
No, it's scary because breaking into a house to steal stuff worth maybe $500 comes with a penalty of death with impunity, rather than a month in jail or what have you. It may suck to get your car stolen, but I wouldn't wish *death* on the robber, I think we can make do with less extreme penalties.


So in other words, we're supposed to ask the burgler what he's in the house to steal before shooting him/her? The burgler should consider the possible consequences before breaking into someone's house....

Good idea. Put the person in jail, let him out in a month or two so that he's back on the street doing the same shit as before.... GREAT IDEA!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ateo wrote:
numerodix wrote:
No, it's scary because breaking into a house to steal stuff worth maybe $500 comes with a penalty of death with impunity, rather than a month in jail or what have you. It may suck to get your car stolen, but I wouldn't wish *death* on the robber, I think we can make do with less extreme penalties.


So in other words, we're supposed to ask the burgler what he's in the house to steal before shooting him/her? The burgler should consider the possible consequences before breaking into someone's house....

Good idea. Put the person in jail, let him out in a month or two so that he's back on the street doing the same shit as before.... GREAT IDEA!


No, your supposed to call the police and then your insurance company like a rational person. Not go rambo on his ass :P.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ateo wrote:
numerodix wrote:
Really? How so? Breaking into a house equals losing your right to live?


Break into my house, I will shoot. Simple as that. Here in Nevada, we HAVE that right. The cops will ask questions then pat you on the back for getting rid of.... well, shit.

Mmm so if you want to get rid of someone, best way would be to shoot them after inviting them to afternoon tea, and breaking your own window?
It's just too easy to say you thought your life was in danger, I don't think it shall be rewarded with impunity.

And yeah, I know police is supposed to investigate, but that's not impossible to foul.


Anyway, as numerodiz said, what is really scary is that so small crimes are punished by death penalty, and that anyone can be the executionner, without trial. Skipping Justice is scary.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ateo wrote:
numerodix wrote:
No, it's scary because breaking into a house to steal stuff worth maybe $500 comes with a penalty of death with impunity, rather than a month in jail or what have you. It may suck to get your car stolen, but I wouldn't wish *death* on the robber, I think we can make do with less extreme penalties.


So in other words, we're supposed to ask the burgler what he's in the house to steal before shooting him/her? The burgler should consider the possible consequences before breaking into someone's house....

Good idea. Put the person in jail, let him out in a month or two so that he's back on the street doing the same shit as before.... GREAT IDEA!


So use stricter penalties on that. If the penalty was 5 years in jail, don't you think that would be a pretty good deterrent?

You cannot possibly value human life very much if you think killing people over robbery is completely acceptable.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zepp wrote:
Why the hell would you need to carry a gun around with you. Do you go grocery shopping with your gun? You never know when you will find Osama in the canned goods section :?

True story.

The last office that my company was in was in a terrible area. Being IT and all, we worked late. We were just getting ready to turn a big system on so for six months or so it wasn't uncommon for us to leave well after midnight.

At least one car was broken in to a week. Every week. It was like clock work. My Accura was broken into 3 times, the ignition was unsuccessfully punched 2 times and, the last time, the whole driver's side door was pried off. Eventually, a girl in an office below us was assualted and raped in the parking lot. No amount of requests to the local police or the building owners accomplished anything.

I got licensed to carry concealed, started bringing a gun to work, and started escorting out our 2 female programmers every night no matter what time they left. Luckily, I never had to use it.

What would -you- do in that situation Zepp?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xglad wrote:
Zepp wrote:
Why the hell would you need to carry a gun around with you. Do you go grocery shopping with your gun? You never know when you will find Osama in the canned goods section :?

True story.

The last office that my company was in was in a terrible area. Being IT and all, we worked late. We were just getting ready to turn a big system on so for six months or so it wasn't uncommon for us to leave well after midnight.

At least one car was broken in to a week. Every week. It was like clock work. My Accura was broken into 3 times, the ignition was unsuccessfully punched 2 times and, the last time, the whole driver's side door was pried off. Eventually, a girl in an office below us was assualted and raped in the parking lot. No amount of requests to the local police or the building owners accomplished anything.

I got licensed to carry concealed, started bringing a gun to work, and started escorting out our 2 female programmers every night no matter what time they left. Luckily, I never had to use it.

What would -you- do in that situation Zepp?


That is a terrible, terrible place to work/live in, xglad. Doesn't it strike you that it's the authorities passing the buck here? Instead of doing something to make it safer, they just let you have guns and "figure it out yourselves". It's like a completely unmoderated forum, flamewars raging. So the solution should come from above, from the authorities who have the means to change it. Not gun toting citizens playing superhero.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
Ateo wrote:
numerodix wrote:
No, it's scary because breaking into a house to steal stuff worth maybe $500 comes with a penalty of death with impunity, rather than a month in jail or what have you. It may suck to get your car stolen, but I wouldn't wish *death* on the robber, I think we can make do with less extreme penalties.


So in other words, we're supposed to ask the burgler what he's in the house to steal before shooting him/her? The burgler should consider the possible consequences before breaking into someone's house....

Good idea. Put the person in jail, let him out in a month or two so that he's back on the street doing the same shit as before.... GREAT IDEA!


So use stricter penalties on that. If the penalty was 5 years in jail, don't you think that would be a pretty good deterrent?

You cannot possibly value human life very much if you think killing people over robbery is completely acceptable.

Another true story.

Last December, someone broke into my 86 year old grandfather's house while he was alseep. They stole some money out of his wallet and ended up hitting him over the head so hard while he was sleeping with something that it opened up his skull and he nearly bled to death before he came to and was able to get himself to the phone.

And you're going to put limits on my value of human life??
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

numerodix wrote:
That is a terrible, terrible place to work/live in, xglad. Doesn't it strike you that it's the authorities passing the buck here? Instead of doing something to make it safer, they just let you have guns and "figure it out yourselves". It's like a completely unmoderated forum, flamewars raging. So the solution should come from above, from the authorities who have the means to change it. Not gun toting citizens playing superhero.

Of course it strikes me that way numerodix. But the point is, this is what we have to work with. This is what it is like in lots of the US. Lots of things need to change to fix it, but the fact remains: this is the way it is right now. So, given that situation, what do you do to protect yourself, your friends, and your family?
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